 Poster: A snowHead
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Jonny Jones, But to the sleepy guys you're hard work and maybe they don't need you when there's lots of people conditioned to the old rules.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A few things which I suspect may limit the type of innovation you are talking about:
a. Language, culture and legal practice differ widely even across the Alps. The EU, the spread of English, the Internet, the Euro (at least for now) have all done much to change things, but there are still barriers which operate in Europe.
b. The majority of customers are content. Guest numbers were actually near record highs on the Alps this year. Clearly good snow helped a lot, but then again much of Europe is or has been in recession. But the week long model is still popular with many (though as I said the average stay in Austria last season was I think actually just under four).
c. A large amount of the supply in Austria (as an example) comes from small family owned businesses. My impression (and I could be wrong) is that much of the US market is more corporately owned which I suspect makes it easier to manage in the way you are suggesting. And actually there is something quite attractive about the smaller model. Starbucks works some times, but if I'm honest I prefer the quality independents.
I did have a lengthy pub discussion some years ago whilst living in Austria about setting up an Internet based clearing house to manage the demand (quite substantial) to find somewhere to head up to at short notice after heavy snow or an on the spur decision. But it inevitably got left behind in the pub.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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nozawaonsen, I'm not sure at it's roots the US is a more corporate model of ownership but it's certainly managed more corporately with Central Resort Booking offices and/or multiresort agencies. It is of course heavily influenced by the cultural vacation model - a few days at a time, maximising use of public holidays etc and indeed the treatment of skiing as a sport with day participants rather than as a holiday. There is also as a fact vastly more accomodation available in general so under maximum utilisation is accepted as a reality e.g. Xmas/NewYear period in Jackson Hole is actually low season with a large number of hotels barely busier than the Shining.
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fatbob, interesting point about annual leave. My apocraphyl understanding is that people in the US often only get a couple of weeks a year where as Europeans get five weeks. That would certainly have an impact on desire fir short break, weekend holidays. There are certainly also large numbers of locals in Austria who just head up the hill for the day too.
Similarly in Japan a lot of the skiing was arranged around the weekend trip with people racing out of Tokyo super early on Saturday. During the week resorts would be utterly empty apart from genki silver surfers.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And actually there is something quite attractive about the smaller model
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I agree. Much of the US has an attitude to holidays which is as frenetic and impatient as much of the rest of their lives (not surprising, given they get practically no paid leave!). Many of the businesses in French ski resorts (and probably Austrian and Italian ones too) operate very much on a family basis, without employees or other expensive overheads. They work almost 24/7 during the busy times, and then switch off completely and make genepi and sleep a lot. I have often moaned about the strict Sat/Sat changeover model in France, but if you have people coming and going every day of the week, you have to pay someone to service the rooms every day of the week too, I suppose. It's like being closed on Sunday or for two hours at lunchtime. I think there's something to be said for people sticking to what's important to them. One of my neighbours was truly impressed, on a cruise, when a Fijian island sent a man in a canoe to explain politely and apologetically that the scheduled run ashore of a big bunch of avid souvenir-buying cruisers had to be cancelled because the islanders were all going to be attending the funeral of a local Big Man who had died unexpectedly.
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This is crazily being portrayed as a polarised either / or situation. I've never felt frenetic or impatient when I've holidayed in North America, and much of the accommodation over there is privately owned. And the Welsh cottage website that I linked to shows that it's possible to sell sleepy, idyllic and highly individual properties in a very 21st century way.
What's missing in most European resorts is a decent centralised booking system. That makes life easier for the punters and easier for the accommodation owners. I can't believe anyone thinks it's not a good thing to be flexible and adaptable.
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Jonny Jones, don't think anyone did say that? Just reflected a bit on the differences. Some good things some less good on both sides of the Atlantic. 
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pam w, suspending tourist activity for a funeral shows respect; not bothering to reply to emails written in English shows contempt.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I can't believe anyone thinks it's not a good thing to be flexible
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well lots and lots of accommodation providers, throughout the Alps, clearly do think it's perfectly OK not to be flexible, and not to have your "planning" for 2013 available until midsummer 2012. Can be frustrating but, I guess, vive la différence!
I remember renting a gite in Hauteluce in May 2002. I had struggled with the arrangements, on the phone (my French is better now) and when we met the owners, at the gite, they looked like they'd just taken a break from milking the cows and digging the potatoes. If they spoke a single word of English they certainly didn't let on. Actually, it added to the fun of the holiday, as did their instructions that we should read the electricity meter ourselves at the end of the week and leave the appropriate sum of money (in new-fangled euros, which they clearly despised) on the kitchen table on departure.
But yes, I do moan about the inflexibility and I think they are going to have to become more flexible - but why bother, when you can do perfickly well with the present system? I tease our French friends, who are retired, about their continued tendency to travel on Saturdays to their own apartment; old habits die hard.
I guess something would be lost in an entirely homogenized world.
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Jonny Jones,
Most of what you want is available in at least some places.
However, for example, we do Sat-Sat changeover because that's what most people seem to accept and most importantly it allows us to offer the accommodation at an economic rate.
If you want me to do you a weekend, no worries I will, you just need to pay me what I'd get for two weeks rental - unless we're talking lowish season in which case, whatever.
Most people, in high season are taking a weeks holiday. I can't afford to then miss out on business just because someone might want to arrive on a Friday.
It's an unfortunate artefact of the self catering apartment rental offering. Although our good friends at www.snostation.com can manage a more flexible arrangement...
But generally, if you want to pick and choose your dates, stay in a hotel.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The Sat-Sat nonsense is tied up with the booking nonsense. It's utterly bonkers: it screws up the roads, it screws up the airports, it screws up the trains, it screws up the rental shops, it screws up the lift pass ticket offices, it screws up the supermarkets. Anyone with a brain who was offered a choice would start and end their holiday on a any day apart from a Saturday.
If you rely on email and phone calls to communicate availability to customers, the transactional friction of each speculative enquiry means that anything beyond the standard weekly block booking will inevitably lead to an unacceptable level of void periods. If, on the other hand, your accommodation were listed with dozens or hundreds of other alternative properties on a big, intelligent website, you could be reasonably confident that someone would soon be along to book the missing days. The longer holidays we enjoy in Europe mean that I have time to take several short breaks each year in addition to our main winter and summer holidays, but I'm not going to spend endless evenings sending emails and making phone calls enquiring after a long weekend.
The welsh cottages site I linked to earlier is a brilliant case study in how technology can work for both renter and owner. Family-sized cottages in school holidays usually must be booked in Sat-Sat blocks, but otherwise there's more flexibility. Different prices apply to different nights of the week to encourage the minority of guests who aren't tied to weekends to make weekday bookings. Rules are set to enforce minimum permitted holiday durations or to prevent single night voids. Discounts apply to longer stays. Powerful search facilities find empty properties that meets your personal requirements. And, because I can travel when I want, I've made numerous off-the-cuff bookings when I'd otherwise have stayed at home. Result: happiness for both me and the owners.
If Wales, the USA and Canada can offer flexible bookings, it's definitely not an artefact of self catering accommodation. It's an artefact of a culture that's elevated customer hostility to an art form.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Jonny Jones, one to look at if you are after self catered apartments is www.ownersdirect.co.uk I booked a verynice apartment of an English person and had no trouble liasing with them, I think it was at this time of year.
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We don't do the Sat-Sat week stay thing because it's easier for us not to - we have 10 apartments and it's actually easier for us not to do a changeover in all the apartments on one day. If we were organising other people to do the changeovers, though, then not having a fixed day would probably be a bit of a headache.
However, during the half term school holidays in the winter season we have found ourselves doing the Sat-Sat thing by our guests' choice, not our own, because it fits in with the average working week, school week, and ski school week. I can understand why other people would then want to keep that set up in place for the season even if we don't, particularly if they are not doing the changeovers/managing bookings themselves, because it makes things more efficient. Lots of people seem to be happy with the set up.
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You know it makes sense.
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miranda, Ditto! Saturday change-overs are a pain, not least for the travellers battling through the crowded airports and along congested roads (and who also generally have to pay higher flight prices). Sundays are much more civilised - weekdays even more so, and bookings seem often to dovetail with each other, leaving few, if any, gaps. And what's wrong with (if feasible) flying out on Friday evening and returning on a Sunday evening, making it a 9 day holiday?
One qualification however is the availability of flights from the UK, which will no doubt vary from area to area. As far as resorts in our area are concerned, whilst Ryanair still offers mid-week flights to Salzburg (when it eventually gets round to publishing them), Easyjet now offers such flights only at weekends (although it still does midweek flights to the less convenient Munich airport).
Subject to that, I totally agree with Jonny Jones, 's comment that:
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The Sat-Sat nonsense is tied up with the booking nonsense. It's utterly bonkers: it screws up the roads, it screws up the airports, it screws up the trains, it screws up the rental shops, it screws up the lift pass ticket offices, it screws up the supermarkets. Anyone with a brain who was offered a choice would start and end their holiday on a any day apart from a Saturday.
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(I would have put in my pennyworth earlier but have evidently been suffering from a touch of the aforesaid out of season Austrian sleepiness!)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just to add a further aspect to the discussion. In our area of the Dolomites the UK skiers markets is not really big enough to sway the methods that have held for years.
The main consideration for the hotels (there are a few apartments in the area, but it’s mainly hotel based) are the practices of the Dutch, Swedish, Slovenians and Polish. The first two will tend to board a coach on Friday after work and head over. The 2nd two will jump in their cars on Saturday morning. Hence the changeover is normally on Sat. There would have to be a compelling reason to make a hotelier change this sat/sat focus and, possibly, lose the most lucrative markets. IT is important to remember that many of the coach based groups from Northern Europe and the Eastern European ski clubs have been using the same hotel for years and the system work, just as it is.
I haven’t mentioned the Italian market as they tend to drive up when-ever and they do tend to late-book, as and when the snow is good.
Mind you there is a compelling reason for some hotels to alter the change over from Sat to Sun. The reason being me (  ). Basically I know that Sun flights are “much” cheaper than Sat flights. Of course to a hotel if you have a customer that say’s how many room do you have, right then I’ll take em all, that’s a good thing – sometimes. As an example of a downside I will just say Equity. They used to book many hotels in this area, but then a few year ago their lawyer simply wrote to all the hotels and cancelling the contracts (don’t ya just love small print). This left many hotels in a bad way for that year (and some didn’t survive). So hotels tend not to allow one customer to take up more than a certain percentage of the available bed/nights over a season. But I do book in large enough numbers to be able to strenuously negotiate, and that includes changing change-over to Sundays. There is one of our hotels that is still clinging to the Sat/Sat system so I will have a chat with them and see what can be done. If they can’t move the changeover then I’ll not be able to use them for 2014, so we’ll see what happens.
Would I make provision for other change overs, say Tue/Tues or even Wed/Mon or Thurs/Wed. No.
The reason being that there isn’t the market there to justify it (This forum isn’t indicative of the ski market as a whole). The cost of transfers is quite large in our area so that’s one reason, the extra staffing required is another, the hotels would be up in arms, the ski school would need more instructors to cope with the mid/mid week groups, etc, etc.
Whilst it may be arguable that in an ideal world everyone would be able to turn up when they wanted and depart when they’d had enough, this isn’t how the real world operates. E.g the coach company we use changes their (€300,000 +) busses every two years. How do they afford to do this ?. Simply they have contract during the midweek with the local schools and at the weekend they run shuttles to the airports, after 2 years the trade in is enough to make the system work. The ski school runs 5 or 6 day groups courses as that what most people want. They don’t start on Wed, as there would be not enough people in the class for it to be worthwhile. Many of the hotels use locals to help out at the weekend on change over days; these same people have normal jobs down in the valley during the mid week. Etc. etc
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hi Jonny
I can echo the remarks of many of those on here as regards the travelling habits of other nations being different to the UK market - being an on an island makes the travel more complicated.
And speaking as an employee of one the 'sleepy' European providers it is the comfort of +90% occupancy on Sat-Sat changeovers, with all the attendant benefits of scaling up for one day only eg only employing cleaners (who often have to be paid to travel to the resort) that drives the apathy. Many Europeans see the Saturday travel 'chaos' as part of the required ski holiday adventure experience and gives tales to tell at the coffee machine a week later!
Of course new technology now means that when we don't have the luxury of excellent back2back bookings on a single day turnaround we can open up sales (both on and offline) to be more flexible - its not about the method of communication but the reservation system behind it being a big revenue driven machine for optimal yield management! If customers change their habits in significant nos we'll change our policies to match but the model at the moment suits most suppliers best so until customers start voting with their wallets to change it it won't be top or our 'to do' list!
Unsurprisingly, booking to travel out of main European holidays will often give you the best results in terms of speed of reaction and flexibility!
Enjoy
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Last Season St Anton started being a little more flexible (Hotels) about booking offering 4 nights but of course the prices are higher.
If small family busineses (B&B, Gasthofs, Hotel Garnis) allowed Weds to Mon or Weds to Weds it effectively leaves them with 6-7 days of vacant rooms which would be very difficult to rent out. Having 2 or 3 different sets of guest in a room over a week also adds a lot to the cleaning.
dont forget these busineses only have effectively 3 solid months (Jan-March) to make there living.
In Austria if you stay a few kms (bus ride away)from a main ski area you can nearly always get flexible bookings.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I want to be able to book accommodation on the dates I want for the duration that suits me (none of this daft forced Saturday changeover nonsense, please!);
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... and I want to be able to stay in business...
As a business based in Austria but run by a bloke from Blighty I know I run a different business model from the majority of Austrians.
Due to my British influence (and that rammed into us by North America) I always try to reply immediately or at least within 12 hours of all emails, I have an instant reservation button on my website and we take credit-cards (if we have to), we are also on instant reservation sites like booking.com, venere/expedia, hotel.de and hrs.de - although not always visible on all of them.
In my town (Radstadt) the majority of small guest house (about 5/6 rooms like mine) do not run their property as a 'business'. It is the family home with letting rooms. Most rely on repeat bookings and do not need to heavily market or respond to emails. They will take bookings over the phone instantly though!
The larger hotels in Radstadt are also on the instant reservation sites and have enquiry forms and work with the tourist office etc.. but IMO the general feel is that Europeans on the continent are much less hassle than the British. And if you ask any questions about transfers, busses, apres ski etc.. then the likelyhood is that you will be at the bottom of the inbox in a 'i'll deal with that in a bit' box.. and then your room dates get booked anyway.
So I will copy nozawaonsen and also add a 'yup'
(incidently our book now button has been used about 3 times in 4 years!... it seems that the type of guest that finds us via our website always wants to have a little chat first!... on booking.com we get a faxed reservation, the guest turns up, has a great holiday and then goes home - job done!)
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Jonny Jones, "tied up with the booking nonsense"
No. It's not.
It is a function resulting from the economic fact (on the internet "FACT") that I and many like me cannot afford to employ staff on a full time basis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jonny Jones, I and my OH and pals frequently tag odd nights onto our weeks skiing by reserving hotels in cities on route to the slopes, and getting out early to go skiing morning after, eg stay overnight in Munich or Innsbruck after flying into MUC, or with car much easier, stay anywhere on route to the chosen resort. Just go with Bookings.com or Hotels.com and they'll frequently take a one night booking.
I fully appreciate the Sat- Sat booking situation, you just get around it and travel accordingly - you've got to appreciate I reckon that the owners wish to maximise occupancy, unless you are going to large hotels that employ full time cleaning staff etc you'll likely struggle IMO. That said if you wait until near the time you'll likely get in somewhere, Internet and email is a wonderful thing in that respect!
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I just booked a DIY trip for this Christmas to Switzerland. Flying Sunday to Sunday saved me £300. Luckily the hotel was happy with this arrangement (possibly because we are repeat offenders).
It would have been a similar saving if I had booked Friday to Sunday flights. The £300 would more than cover a couple of extra nights near the airport, which would allow for full days skiing on the two Saturdays, and all parties would be happy (very happy in my case!). I think I'll take this approach in future.
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musher, Agreed, we now tend to take the Friday off work for travel and get an extra day skiing on the saturday (usually v quiet on slopes), on way back ski until 3pm and use train wherever possible to airport to avoid queues on the roads, 8 days skiing and best use of travel time/ no days off work. Alternatively Hull to Rotterfan P&O ferry on Thursday evening after work, sleep in cabin, drive to hotel (via Bookins.com) near resort for Friday night, good meal and early night, early to rise, quick breakfast and on slopes by 9am, after dropping bags and car off at main Sat - Sat accomodation gaff........................on way back self service breakfast and leave hotel/ pension 6.00am latest Saturday morning if driving home to avoid traffic.............. simples!
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Markymark29, Hull to Rotterfan P&O ferry - how do you find the prices?? Seemed v expensive for a family of 4???
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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kitenski, Theres only 2 of us, typically works out about £280-300 including one twin cabin and no meals, but it goes up fairly steep as time goes on so need to book early. If you need a second cabin for family it would get pricy I guess, they do however do family rooms if you can cram in which would be OK. Not luxurious by any means and not cheap, but its very clean IME. We look at it as a floating hotel so its a room for the night, and you get off super-charged ready for the drive at the other end, rather than being knackered if going via Tunnel. We usually take a coolbox to the room, eat quick meal, couple of drinks in the piano bar and get an early night sleep c/w ear plugs. Use rest of coolbox contents for snacks on route and breakfast, coffee before we leave boat at on board Costa. Disembark 8.30 CET, reach Arlberg about 5pm, stopping for WC breaks every 2 hours and sharing driving, 80-85mph all the way, no tolls just great roads in Holland and Germany. Very civilised.
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Markymark29, yeh cheers, we've ended up leaving Leeds by 6am, Chunnel, then 5 hours on the other side, hotel for 4 around 70-80 Euro + food. Chunnel is 'free' on Tesco so just seems cheaper doing it that way to us!! Up at a civilised hour, brekkie in room that we boughts ourselves, and we were in Stuben about 1 or 2pm I think, so sort out kids boot hire and all done in time for them to have a little ski on the beginner lifts at Zurs
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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kitenski, Just a thought, is it worth bashing on a bit further say 3-4 hours more and staying at say Dornbirn just inside Austria, even if you arrived at say 8-9pm........ can PM you a great hotel with secure underground parking we sometimes use, very reasonable and exceptional quality. You can then get up 7am, decent breakfast and be skiing earlier and get a full day skiing? That drive down A1M, round M25 ans M20, then Chunnel is pretty draining though and the French/ Belgian cart-track motorways dont help do they? It just seems a much longer drive via Chunnel IME. Also guess its harder with a family, harder though with more folks to think of - we just bash on through Germany and try get there or as close as poss depending on timings.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Markymark29, reckon that'd be a touch too far with the kids, place we've found near walldorf has a swimming pool so they can have a bit of a swim after being in the car all day, and not such a drag for the adults.
We actually find it less tiring than flying though!
BTW where's your avvie pack sale thread and I'll add your pics!
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kitenski, Looks like a good plan. I also have found a good stop off place in Belgium, 2 hours from Calais if you need it anytime, very near the motorway (thats what is called anyway but doesn't resemble one!).
Re photos of ABS just done a new FS item, if you could post a couple of the photos for me that'd be brill, cheers.
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You know it makes sense.
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Markymark29,
The best day I have ever had was a Saturday at the end of the week where we got to ski most the day as we were on the train. It was the only real powder day I have had in the 3 valleys, and we had the resort virtually to ourselves (shamefully I can't even remember which one - I've stayed just about everywhere, but only once each). Just the two of us and the lifties in about 18" of fresh powder in silence and quite heavy snow. I think anybody left in the resort must have been put off by the snowing. We certainly weren't.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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musher, That's the style!!
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FAQ
