Jonny Jones, the best thing about using good technique is that it's normally the most efficient way to ski a given set of conditions, meaning you have to expend less effort than if you're trying to muscle your way down the slope. I agree with your advice about not skiing past the point of tiredness, but if you ski well you're likely to push that point to later in the day.
couldn't possibly disagree with you. But trying to learn new tricks when you're tired is likely to lead to extreme frustration or worse
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Jonny Jones wrote:
Assuming you're a one week per year holiday skier, a lot of these posts from instructor demigods seem to overlook the impact of fitness and fatigue. I'll happily ski slush at high speed when my legs are reasonably fresh, but it's pretty unforgiving stuff if you're on the limit with tired legs. You always need to be ready for the next lump of soft, sticky snow, and that's more than a little knackering unless you use those muscles for months at a time. The problem is made worse as slush tends to arrive at the end of the day when you're already tired.
There are few things more demoralising than knowing exactly where you ought to position your legs, torso and arms but lacking the physical strength to get them there. When you hit that point you need either to find something easier to ski down or head straight to the nearest cafe. It's better to ski well the next day than risk over-exertion or, worse, injury.
This, is when charging a bit comes even more into play. Rail on your edge with some speed and you won't notice any lumps or bumps in your path - much less tiring then my other method (and I'm a pretty average skier btw).
fatbob wrote:
MTFU and just charge it like the piles of slush aren't there. Bonus you get to spray rooster tails, the faster you go the further they spray
Try and spot me (about 20 metres in front of the skier with the camera):
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 27-02-12 20:15; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
clarky999 wrote:
Try and spot me (about 20 metres in front of the skier with the camera)
rob@rar, glad you aint being a bit over defensive here mate!
What do you think I mean...?? ski on your knees?
What is frame 1 and 4 ... oh and 3 if it is not low?... do I need to blurb about extensions bi-lateral with extra bacon but hold the pickles?... (just so all the 'intermediates' know exactly what I'm talking about).
Stop over analysing and get out skiing!
Hit the slush with an aggressive attitude, snappy turns, keep forward, keep low (except for when you have to actually extend to turn as you are a skier and not a limpet stuck on a rock and I thought maybe, just maybe you might know that bit already doh!)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
p.s but short turns in your portofolio is a must, before trying this!
After all it is free
After all it is free
cbr7, be more fun if it wasn't !!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
tartegnin wrote:
I would REALLY appreciate some plain language advice on techniques for skiing when the snow softens up, especially towards the afternoon.
I had my WORST ski day ever yesterday - started off ok on pretty icy slopes, but by late morning/early afternoon, everything had softened into big lumpy piles. I am a decent intermediate skiier, but even some of the tougher blue slopes just took it out of me. It's partly confidence, which just evaporates when I approach a big soft pile and have to contemplate a turn, but I suspect a lot of it is technique - what works on ice or nicely packed snow just doesn't work on soft snow. Any advice would be really gratefully received as it looks like we're in for a spell of warm weather. To be honest, I've been improving so nicely this season, but yesterday really got me down (in both senses of the word).
As an aside, I did change my boots recently and suddenly after my boot bag was (mistakenly?) taken out of the changing room, and opted for a higher flex (80 from 60, I think) on the advice of an instructor ... they feel pretty comfortable, but could that have contributed to my tired legs-one fall-flailing arms-inelegant skiing?
Don't sweat. That day is still better than any day at the office. Skiing simply wouldn't be worth it if it wasn't challenging.
It’s great to hear that you have been progressing lately but progression is defiantly not linear. Realise that currently this is your ability level but do not get down about it or blame it on your equipment. Be patient, take some lessons and practice. With a little bit of effort you will be having a great time all day regardless of the snow conditions.
Quote:
Keep low
BTW advice communicated over a forum to 'keep low' or similar do more harm than good because most people will misinterpret what is meant and end up squatting down like they are sitting on the toilet.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
In an attempt to sum up some of the advice given in this thread, I think that helps to think through the physics in an attempt to understand what's going on with your skis in slush bumps. The main issues are:
- Your skis become fixed in tramlines by the soft snow and are extremely difficult to steer (in a skiing context, steering happens when you forcibly twist your skis with your legs rather than letting the slope turn them for you by adjusting your weight and position)
- The uneven surface forces your skis up and down and can cause sudden, unexpected deceleration
- The first two items can happen more to one ski than the other
Three problems lead to three solutions. The way to deal with the first problem is to carve your turns with little or no skidding or sliding. You deal with the second problem by using your legs as shock absorbers, keeping your upper body still while your skis bounce up and down. And you deal with the third problem by introducing some symmetry into your skiing: keep your skis reasonably close and reduce the dominance on the outside ski that's been carefully drilled into you by past instructors.
The problem with the first solution is that many skiers skid their skis in an effort to lose speed through a turn, and others hurriedly initiate their turns by steering because they dislike the speed and acceleration that can be associated with a carved turn. If you do those things (and, as an intermediate, you might not realise that you do them), you need to learn to carve, and learn to control your speed while carving, on some more forgiving terrain first. If you can't carve, you'll struggle with slush.
The problem with the second solution is that it's extraordinarily tiring if you spend 51 weeks of the year behind a computer. The temptation is to attempt to slow down, keep your legs rigid and allow your whole body to rise and fall with the bumps. But, although that feels better for a few moments, the fixed position of your limbs means fatigue rapidly sets in. It's also very difficult to control your speed and balance if you assume a rigid position, so you're likely to be thrown forwards or backwards and maybe even fall over into a damp, slushy mogul; not a good outcome. It's one of those cases where it genuinely is easier to go faster provided (and that's a very big proviso) that you do actually have the strength in your legs to absorb every shock that coold possibly come your way.
The problem with the third solution is that many skiers rely on the wider stance that's become taught in recent years as a substitute for good lateral balance; if you bring your skis closer together for the first time in slush, you're likely to fall over. And if you're an aggressive carver on the groomers, you probably have some pretty dominant muscle memories telling you to heavily weight and edge your outside ski. It can be very difficult to overcome that habit.
So, as rob@rar says, good technique is the least tiring and way to ski. But, in slush, there's a minimum entry level in fitness terms and, if you aren't there on that particular day, you really are better off in the bar.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Ski fast. Ski in curves.Slush is great fun! Accept the fact your legs will feel a bit more tired.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
^^^^^ +1
Elston,
Quote:
BTW advice communicated over a forum to 'keep low' or similar do more harm than good because most people will misinterpret what is meant and end up squatting down like they are sitting on the toilet.
I was under this stooopid impression (again) that the OP was an 'Intermediate' skier rather than a beginner, so therefore is fully aware that one should not look like they are laying a massive cable when skiing. I also failed to mention that the skier should put their boots on in the morning and that gloves come highly recommended!
Stop over analysing and enjoy the actual skiing!... gonna nail some 'Dolphin Turns' today.. they look fun!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
flangesax, had a bad week?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Pedantica, just getting a bit bored by the 'boot fitters required' and the amount of technique threads with a lack of 'plain language advice' as requested here by the OP.
This in conjunction of not being allowed to assume that a that writes they are at an intermediate level will know anything about skiing...
Still... I'm off to play with a Dolphin!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
flangesax, Sometimes plain language can be a bit confusing. I still don't know what you mean by "stay low" for example. In my first post in this thread I used as much plain language as I could; in your first post you took a pop at the OP for having the cheek to describe himself as a decent intermediate skier. Is that what you mean by plain language?
But enough of this, I'm off to teach somebody to ski.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
really - thanks for all the helpful advice (if if some of it is contradictory) and encouragement - a lot of it makes sense and has given me renewed determination. Will try to take a few hours off during the week to try some of this out and will pick up the speed (that seems essential, he who hesitates is lost - esp. true in skiing, I find!) and stay low (yes, I get what this means!) and also NOT first ski my heart out the first few hours of the morning when everything is hard, thereby having fun but getting tired by the time the soft snow appears in the late morning (and, yes, I sit at a desk, but not 51 weeks out of the year, since I'm lucky enough to be exactly 58 minutes from our local pistes ..., but I am also approaching the big 50 very very rapidly, so there's only so much I can expect ...)
This whole thread has been very encouraging, both in knowing that I'm not alone in being unsure what to do and also that there are several of you crazy folk who actually enjoy the soft snow!
Will let you know how it turns out.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Many are talking about short turns in the slush. If there are mounds of slush short turns and bump technique works better but don't short turns tire your legs out quicker? I mix it up but find carved longer turns a lot less tiring. Long turns with a bit of speed can be a problem when the unexpected water brakes come on though.
flangesax,
I imagine your ski lesson delivery is a bit like thsi .....
flangesax, I don't mean to criticise but its just that someone else (other than the OP) could read the advice and get completely the wrong idea. People interpret the same written advice differently especially when it is a very simple instruction and not put into context.
I try to not give technique advice on a forum because there is no real way of ensuring that somebody has grasped what I am trying to communicate.
Personally my experience was that I read advice given to other people on forums to 'get forward' and 'get out of the back seat'. But my interpretation of this advice was so wrong even though I was a good intermediate skier at the time. I took this advice to heart so much that I was out of balance and overpowering the DH ski. I got the wrong idea completely and had no guidance to correct my misunderstanding until I started having lessons (actually had a lesson with rob@rar at Hemel when I realised that I was consciously doing something wrong).
Lessons were great for me because I could get feedback on my skiing, realise my limitations and I could ask questions.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Your legs are the suspension, you should have a bit of sag. i.e. not fully extended at the end of the turn = Your head height is lower even though you may fully extend in the turn.
I'd be grateful if you could explain what it means to you, because what it means to me is bad advice, IMO.
rob@rar - what I take it to mean is to go into the turn lower on the skis (or, more with knees bent) rather than popping up in the transition part - keeping knees bent and flexible - but also being able to push out with downhill ski as you come through the turn, which I think was some of your advice ...? Likw DB commented recently.
By "I get what this means" I was addressing an earlier comment about being too far back on the ski - I take staying low to be more akin to the bending you normally would do out of the turn (sorry - my lack of true ski tech lingo really lets me down here) - that is, normally, I would have knees bent into a turn, up more or less (depending on snow) through the transition and back down "low" out of the turn to get the edges (have been really working not only on weight shift on downhill ski going into the turn, but also on getting the edge on the uphill ski by concentrating on the "little toe" coming out of the turn - does that make sense?) I've been working on the idea of keeping the upper body relatively still and "swinging" my legs out, under and out again in a linked turning rhythm. Oh dear - am making rather a mess of explaining anything.
I really do wish you were in the area - I'd happily take a "soft snow lesson" from you ... it's probably a lot easier to show me than to tell me!
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 28-02-12 13:23; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
tartegnin, thanks for that. I'm in the middle of a lesson now, but will reply more fully later today.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Elston, don'tpanic!... yes you do... (I'm alright though... I can take it!)
DB, Probably would be... if my German was good enough!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
tartegnin wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
tartegnin wrote:
and stay low (yes, I get what this means!)
I'd be grateful if you could explain what it means to you, because what it means to me is bad advice, IMO.
rob@rar - what I take it to mean is to go into the turn lower on the skis (or, more with knees bent) rather than popping up in the transition part - keeping knees bent and flexible - but also being able to push out with downhill ski as you come through the turn, which I think was some of your advice ...? Likw DB commented recently.
By "I get what this means" I was addressing an earlier comment about being too far back on the ski - I take staying low to be more akin to the bending you normally would do out of the turn (sorry - my lack of true ski tech lingo really lets me down here) - that is, normally, I would have knees bent into a turn, up more or less (depending on snow) through the transition and back down "low" out of the turn to get the edges (have been really working not only on weight shift on downhill ski going into the turn, but also on getting the edge on the uphill ski by concentrating on the "little toe" coming out of the turn - does that make sense?) I've been working on the idea of keeping the upper body relatively still and "swinging" my legs out, under and out again in a linked turning rhythm. Oh dear - am making rather a mess of explaining anything.
I really do wish you were in the area - I'd happily take a "soft snow lesson" from you ... it's probably a lot easier to show me than to tell me!
So yeah, you don't get it lol. You definitely do want to be extending you legs at transition. I think flangesax is saying that you want this extension to be more sideways (laterally) rather than vertically. Which is fine, if you're fast enough and good enough to get the big edge angles (like in rob@rar's picture. However, what you seem to have taken from it is ski with your knees bent all the time with no extension.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
For me it's a lot like powder skiing i.e. more equal weighting of the skis, feet closer together, unweighted at the transition so you don't hook up etc. Searching for the hard piste underneath by putting the weight on one ski across the fall line = arggggggggh §$%%§##!!!!!
ok, am practically utterly confused, now! I like the Steve Young clip because I can SEE what he's talking about, but still, he is saying LESS hard on the edge (contrary to some advice above) and more bend (instead of flex) in the downhill ski (which seems to be ridiculed by some above). I think I get the "surfy" concept, though I hope conditions don't devolve into the last clip above (really got a chuckle, there!)
I really think I need a lesson on the piste to sort this one out! Otherwise, I think I will take, dare I say it?!, flangesax's advice and just go for it, have fun and not worry too much! I'm overthinking this, aren't I?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I would go with the soft approach rather than being hard on the edges.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
and more bend (instead of flex) in the downhill ski (which seems to be ridiculed by some above).
No it's not - we've just said you still need to extend the legs (as the dude does) for the transition - it's not legs bent/flexed all the time.
As too:
Quote:
he is saying LESS hard on the edge (contrary to some advice above)
It's basically somewhere in between the methods I described. Basically he's just saying weight the skis a bit more evenly than normal carving (where the majority of weight is on the outside/downhill ski). Just a bit easier-going and less aggressive than fast carving and charging through - which also works perfectly fine.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
thanks, clarky999 - your summary makes sense (I think ) ... I'm going to try to head off tomorrow for a few hours practice. It's supposed to be 19 degrees (and that's centigrade, unfortunately) at base by Friday, so it looks like I'll have plenty of opportunity.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Kangaroo turns and turn about the tails if on long skis, aggressive feet together slalom turns in slush (lovely) if on short carver, two footed everything else forgetting all this bounce and get into rhythm nonsense just keep the same radius turns suitable for the steepness with lots of avalement when it gets choppy.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
tartegnin wrote:
rob@rar - what I take it to mean is to go into the turn lower on the skis (or, more with knees bent) rather than popping up in the transition part - keeping knees bent and flexible - but also being able to push out with downhill ski as you come through the turn, which I think was some of your advice ...? Likw DB commented recently.
I think one danger with starting the turn where your legs are more flexed than usual (i.e. keeping low) is that you remove a fair amount of your ability to cope with the lumps and bumps that you often find on piste with slushy snow. It's like removing the shock absorbers from your suspension system - it reduces your capacity to absorb the terrain.
Another problem is that if you are very flexed for most or all of the turn it is much more difficult to apply extra pressure to the skis to make them turn. If we can't rotate them (because it's too easy to catch an edge) it is often helpful to be able to create some extra pressure at the start of the turn by a strong extension of the legs. This is very similar to skiing in powder snow which many people have recommended, and I agree that it's a good way to think of skiing slush. So, rather than keeping low I'd recommend a big, powerful extension to begin the turn, staying extended and powerful (while tipping your skis on to whatever edge angle you can manage) through the body of the turn, and flexing at the end of the turn to manage the forces that will build up and prepare you for the leg extension that begins the next turn.
I wouldn't recommend pushing the downhill/outside ski out (i.e. sideways). Any significant sideways movement with the skis is difficult because of all the soft snow that will build up against the ski. Rather than pushing sideways think of pushing the ski against the snow. Being a bit more two-footed, as other people have said, is a good thing, as well as keeping your speed up to maintain enough momentum to power through the slush.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jjc wrote:
I would go with the soft approach rather than being hard on the edges.
thumbsup
I like to think of "surfing" in slush... or pretending I'm a snowboarder because they always seemed to do better...
OP - want to get better at slush? Spend a season skiing an Australian resort... slush almost guaranteed by 11 each day at Thredbo on bottom half... maybe slightly later higher up... Other resorts match for elevation with Vic resorts getting more slush being lower
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Without reading any of the other responses, I'll offer mine, and apologize in advance if I repeat what someone else has said.
1) No pivoting. Start your turns without twisting your skis downhill. Just roll them on edge and let them turn by themselves, always keeping them pointing the direction you're traveling, and stabbing straight into the piles of snow. If you pivot you'll be hitting the piles sideways, and not liking it at all. It really knocks you around.
2) In the same vein and #1, don't use a big skid angle. Make your turns more carve like than heavily steered. It will let you push less snow and not get knocked around as much.
3) Use turn shape to control your speed, not pivoting and skid angle. Smaller radius and turning more out of the falline results in slower speeds.
4) On groomed trails staying center balance (fore/aft plane) is best. When you're hitting big piles, move your balance point back towards your heels, just slightly. When you hit a pile and get thrown forward, it just brings you back to center rather than over the handlebars.
5) Generally when on groomed snow keeping most of your weight on your outside foot is the ticket. In soft snow, moving a bit more over to your inside foot is helpful. It keeps the outside ski from getting overloaded and mushing away from you, and your inside ski from drifting and getting directionally twitchy. Shoot for around 60/40 outside/inside.
On hard snow you mostly use the metal edges of the skis. In powder / slush you use the whole base of the ski. The latter is what I believe Steve Young means by surfing.
On hard snow angulation is used ..... (I trust FastMan doesn't mind me posting his pics especially as there is a ruddy big advertisement for his instructional skiing DVD's on one of the links that I'm not able to talk about because that would be blatent advertising ) http://www.yourskicoach.com/SkiGlossary/Angulation.html
An advanced/expert skier can most likely make short turns in deeper slush but for the less experienced/talented skier I see it as a recipe for getting taken down quick at the transition. I see longer turns as more achievable for the intermediate. The collasping of the downhill leg helps to even the weight out between the skis in the transition and starts the next turn without significant steering/twisting of the skis. We mere mortal skiers think we can ski well be as others have said, this sort of snow picks up any errors and punishes you. I once made a comment that a bunch of ski instructors skiing perfectly on perfectly groomed piste wasn't 'real' skiing. There was uproar in the ski instructors locker room. For me the real test of a skier is not perfect form on perfect terrain but seeing how well they ski various types of difficult terrain.
Even when the piste is perfect use the crappy snow at the side of the piste to test your technique (if only for a few minutes each ski day), this will get you ready for slushy days. Use slushy days to test your powder technique. On powder days - have fun.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 29-02-12 14:45; edited 2 times in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
DB wrote:
I see longer turns as more achievable for the intermediate.
Which is fine if you're on relatively gentle terrain, but longer turns (especially if you use big edge angles to create your turns) on steeper terrain are soon going to lead to speed which is uncomfortably high for most people. So on steeper terrain you need to be able to modify what you do to keep your speed under control, but without relying on twisting your skis a lot. On gentler terrain, blues for example, carved long radius turns are enormous fun in slushy snow, and should be greatly encouraged
Oh man, I love skiing. Getting sooo excited for Spring now!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar,
I'd assume the intermediates who are having problems with slush would take a blue or gentle red down rather than a black.
After all it is free
After all it is free
DB wrote:
rob@rar,
I'd assume the intermediates who are having problems with slush would take a blue or gentle red down rather than a black.
That would be sensible. Though I'm sure you have, like me, seen a bazillion examples of skiers who have not taken the sensible option. (No slur intended on the OP, who seems to be very keen to do the right thing).
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
perhaps a thought would be the softer the snow the softer your legs have to be as the turn progresses. not sure "getting low" is a good idea, nor sure that trying to get bigger edge angles is a good idea either....
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
skimottaret wrote:
nor sure that trying to get bigger edge angles is a good idea either....
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
that writes they are at an intermediate level will know anything about skiing...
For me the real test of a skier is not perfect form on perfect terrain but seeing how well they ski various types of difficult terrain.
