Lesson obsession

A snowHead

I'm a 50 year old full cert ski instructor in Colorado.

About a year ago I began to sense something was wrong in several areas of my skiing. It felt bad, I wasn't comfortable, I often felt out of balance. This would typically manifest itself in bumps and/or on steep terrain in busted up powder or crud.

At first I simply assumed it was age creeping up on me. Then I saw my peers in their late fifties and sixties skiing like they did in their twenties. I came to the realization it was simply crummy technique on my part.

I sought the help of a ski instructor whom I trusted. The "fix" was simple. I felt better right away and regained the joy I had lost.

Skiing with friends and being "pushed" by better skiers has it's place. It is also a great way to ingrain a myriad of bad habits.

A snowHead

Lessons are great for when you want to fix a specific problem or learn a specific thing. But to take them all the time seems a bit excessive to me, unless you're absolutely overflowing with money.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I usually have one private lesson a year, just to fine tune my technique after it has got rusty over the summer, maybe I would have more than one if all my friends were having them as well, but generally I find that one a year is enough, which leaves plenty of time for free skiing with friends.

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I'd agree with those who think most people aren't obsessed with lessons - when we used to ski with a group hardly any of us used to take lessons. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Surely the point of skiing is enjoyment? If you're getting enough enjoyment from your current level where's the need? Some people, on the other hand, seem to be driven by a need to constantly improve (and to analyse) and derive their enjoyment from this. It's all good.

For me, I just do what I feel I need. I had lessons for 1 week and then worked seasons during which I skied with a lot of people better than me, including a few instructors (so informal lessons I guess). So I got to a reasonable level and didn't bother with lessons for the first few years of ski holidays because I was happy with my standard. Then around 5 or 6 years ago I got a little bored with skiing and frustrated with my technique so I started having a lesson every year. That worked pretty well for me.

The past year or so we've been doing the Warren Smith thing. Next season we'll get in around 15-20 days skiing, of which 3 will be with one of Warren's guys. That seems about right. I'm sure that if I did more I would improve more but who cares? I'm having fun.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I think the apparent "lesson obsession" on this forum is because many of the contributors are very experienced skiers. It seems to me that the more experienced you are, the more likely you are to take (private) lessons. Also, many of us are not in the first flush of youth, so technique becomes increasingly important as we tend to have less strength and fitness. It is my experience that the 2-7/8 week skiers often think lessons are a waste of time, and then come back to them when they realise they're missing something.

Of course I'm biased, but I promise: the better (technically) you ski, the more fun it is. Speed is irrelevant most of the time - control is King!!!! Of course the better (technically) you ski the faster you ski without even noticing it. Laughing

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Just going by my own experience, I had three days lessons for my first go at skiing, then a couple of days playing round putting them into practice. My second week involved applying a lot of reading, forum and handbook hints to my ventures and also a 1-3 ratio private lesson with the ESF.
Third week was the EOSB and easiski (amongst others with more experience) gave me plenty of hints and tips - (cheers again). So this year I'm looking at getting three weeks on the snow - I'm aiming at getting at least a half day lesson each week - maybe more for the off piste. I reckon that this will give me plenty of ski time to enjoy and work on smoothness. A few friends who ski and board seem to do the same - take one or two lessons for each week they ski.

After all it is free

I'll have a lesson of some sort whenever I go, whether it's a morning private or a 3 day ski school in Canada. Mr C doesn't take lessons although he does like the 3 day Club Ski school at Banff - I think because of the slalem race at the end which he always has to win! Very Happy

I think the week and a half of ESF follow-me that he learned to ski with put him off lessons for life.

This picture of him was taken during the slalem at Norquay this year (they take a photo of you on the way down which you can buy later. They decided to mock his photo into a magazine cover & present it to him at that evening's reception Embarassed

. And yes, it is hanging in our hallway!

)

I know its hard to tell from just a still photo but what would you say his major faults are that I can persuade him he should have some lessons? He likes going fast but hasn't really gone off-piste much.

[quote="Cathy Coins
I know its hard to tell from just a still photo but what would you say his major faults are that I can persuade him he should have some lessons? He likes going fast but hasn't really gone off-piste much.[/quote]

running gates wearing a back pack!

i don't think you running to him and saying, "darling, some ski instructor in the US picked apart your skiing" will serve as motivation to get him to take a ski lesson.

i see a lot of good things in the photo. one of the things that i see in the vast majority of skiers are boots being "levered" during the course of a turn. I do it, recreational skiers do it. it is a very vestigial movement. in order to make modern skis turn they need tipped on edge. it can be done various ways. what we don't need to do as much of is jam our shins into the boot tongue. it is one of the biggest myhts still being perpetuated today.

your hubby looks like he is having a great time and a big smile is what skiing is all about.

did he manage to avoid a collision with the guy in the snowplow to his left?

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Rusty Guy, you're right - I think 'persuade to have some lessons' was probably unrealistic! wink

Perhaps I should have said 'any tips that he could work on' rather than 'any major faults'. And that rucksack never comes off his back Very Happy

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he isnt wearing his helmet ! Shocked

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Hannou, ah - he will be next season courtesy of a birthday pressie Very Happy

taller, less tip lead, less pressure on the front of the boots.

You know it makes sense.

You certainly don't have to take lessons, but there arepeople who strive to get better, ski new terrain, so they continue to take lessons. Price is a factor so is the amount of practice that you get but i think that the main difference is that most people here are more serious about their skiing than most weekend footballers are about their game. The diffrence is mainly the goals that you have. If you want to be more in control, enjoy difficult conditions, go offpiste rather than beng content with cruising the slopes you need lessons.
Let's take mountain biking for example: i have bought a basic hardtail less than a year ago (cost me about 350 US$). I started riding with my mates who are on more expensive bikes. Learned some technique from them, bought more expensive tires (about 25 $), i can feel the difference. So my next step (as soon as i finnish my degree and start making some real money) will be to take a mountain bike basic course, to be followed by an advanced course, to be followed by freeride instruction and a bike upgrade etc, etc. I'm not going to start going off drops all by myself!
Meanwhile i continue to play rugby mainly to release some aggresion and as an excuse to get p***ed after the game. No need to take lessons for that

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

If you can't work it out yourself and need an objective view then a teacher is a good idea. If you are happy with what you do then
just do that.

Some people can have lots of lessons and not have a clue but they would get further with a lesson than without in this instance. Other people can ski like a dream with no instruction, just helpful hints and a lot of mileage. IMV there is no substitution for doing it. Talk about it all you like but get out there and try it is what will get you furthest. If you feel the need to know every little thing, that isn't a very instinctive skier and that may lead to that person not trying anything too adventurous. It is these places that quatum leaps can occur, teaching can do this as well, of course.
Mostly people talk about doing things too much and not actually doing much...

A snowHead

JT, not quite. Areyou sugesting figuring how to work an avalanche transciever "by just going out an trying it"? How about learning how and when to ski steep ungroomed? How about working out how to tie knots for climbing and rappeling? Gravity sport are more dangerous than football or running, the mountains are a dangerous place to be, especially if you don't know what you're doing!

A snowHead

sugardaddy,

I was talking specifically about skiing as the poster was quite clear in his initial thread that skiing was his concern.

But working a bleep isn't rocket science but trying to find something in the field takes a bit of getting used to and pratise. Would advocate a course here. We have two Himalayan climbers in our group so I take my lead from them in those climbimg situations

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

JT,
I reckon I get much more mileage in lessons, mainly because in Canada at least you get to skip the line-ups, so even if you do a very technical lesson with any half decent coach/instructor you still do more skiing.
Like you say though, it depends what you want to get out of it, I guess I'm not ever content with much so am pretty obsessed with always getting better so I can ski faster, safer, longer, harder, etc..., so answering the question yes I'm totally obsessed with lessons!! snowHead

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

JT, interestingly, as far as I can perceive, you are in the SHs minority.

Doesn't mean you are wrong, but that as far as I can see there's a loose consensus that some form of instruction/coaching/training/etc. is a good thing for just about everyone. And I think there's a reasonable group of experienced SHs contributing opinion.

IMHO skiing isn't generally intuitive. The fact that the best skiers in the world plus almost all snow professionals will be coached by their peers to some degree, most of the time, suggests to me that one can't teach oneself. Personal experience agrees with this.

Now, if we are narrowly restricting "lessons" to mean group lessons, then you have a greater weight to your points.

Dave Horsley, sad to say, in my experience (which may or not be "limited" depending on your point of view - these thing are relative of course) invariably the worst skiers I know are the ones who've learned by aping their mates. It just doesn't tend to work very well. What I think I observe you doing is very often the effect not the cause.

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I have no problem with people taking lessons - I sometimes take them myself - but I have a big problem with people telling me that I ought to take lessons.

Most people would be better at their chosen sport, from mountain biking to tiddlywinks, if they took tuition. But most people don't actually engage in sport as a means to self improvement; they do it to have fun. So long as they're good enough to enjoy themselves, they're not too bothered about getting better.

I find it odd that skiing, which for the vast majority of participants is a non-competitive activity, should attract such a high incidence of dedicated self-improvers. That's OK, but on many occasions in these forums I've detected a slightly sneering tone of reproval towards people who just want to ski with their mates.

Am I alone in feeling looked down upon by the great and good of Snowheads because I prefer skiing to tuition? Or am I just being oversensitive?

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After all it is free

Jonny Jones, unless your skiing is unsafe I don't see that you should have to take lessons and I for one won't look down on you for not doing so

Jonny Jones, yes, you are being oversensitive Smile

snowHeads don't do 'slightly sneering tones' wink

Just do what you want. I've skiied for years with friends, just skiing and having fun, hardly ever any lessons (like not for years!) but had a couple of sessions with easiski at the EOSB. I've got plenty of bad habits which I will work on to correct (if I remember what easiski taught me to do!), but I'm still not going to have lessons every time I go skiing. It's your own choice snowHead

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Jonny Jones, no sneering from me. Just so long people ski under control the only criterion as far as I'm concerned is to enjoy our time in the mountains. Apart from the cost, I enjoy lessons as much as I enjoy free skiing. If I stopped enjoying lessons I wouldn't take any more, no matter how much I wanted to imrpove my skiing.

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Jonny Jones, i make my living teaching skiing. you have hit the proverbial nail right on the head my friend. as long as it puts a smile on your face that is all that matters.

the mountain bike discussion is interesting on various levels. i am the worlds worst mountainbiker living in the self proclaimed mb capital of the US. i also own the oldest most ragged bike you can imagine. i love the exercise and that is all that matters. every time i go shopping for a new bike i get more confused. i imagine it is the same thing skiers feel when they walk into a ski shop and see a myriad of skis and boots.

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Jonny Jones, it occurs to me also that some people are actively encouraged to take group type lessons while their other halves nip off with their mates wink

Hope you detected no sneering from me!

If you get what you want out of it, then that's the most important thing - but if you aren't having some form of instruction you should assume a greatly reduced rate of improvement. That may not matter whatsoever to you.

Jonny Jones, There's no problem with people not taking lessons as long as they're safe, and don't endanger others. The problem that I see often is that many people who "just ski" go far to fast for their technical level, and thereby put the rest of us in danger. Many people say "I don't need lessons", well, you may not want them or take them, but we all NEED them!

Rusty Guy, I vote my bike worse than yours!!!!! About 25 years old, first generation MB, rusty, saddle somewhat mouse-eaten, handlebars ditto, old stickers on it, no pump, 2 flat tyres - AND SOMEONE STOLE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shocked

You know it makes sense.

David Murdoch,

Meant to send this earlier, but what with following the test match and trying to do some work managed to lose my previous attempt.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Jonny Jones, no, probably not, is the honest answer, though I think sneering is too strong. There are certainly some on here who favour pretty much constant lessons and will not unreasonably try to convince you too, but usually with good intent. I once said something like nothing beats free skiing and felt a bit the same as you. However on this occasion several people have piped up to agree with you that free skiing is good too. My own take is

A snowHead

Our group self teach a lot. We have a retired instructor - but nobody takes any notice because we are better and younger, we have 4 very active climbers and a tele/climber. We also often hire guides. We ski ok and get a huge deal out of it. We have a degree of mountain craft -courtesy of the mountaineers. On the whole we aren't an inexperienced group. I have skied a good few years and love steep stuff. I may have been a better skier if I had done things differently, but at a cost of what..I may not have had some amazing days... I may have had some others. We try not to lose a day and we had many many adventures, we may have had a few lucky breaks.
I don't think I ski that great, I have faults and I know what they are so can try and remedy them. I get these mistakes hammered into me on quite testing - for me - ground. And through all this I know I am safe. I rarely fall when it matters and it matters alot when the exposure is rocky.
As I have never had lessons, except one or two private ones over 15 years ago - I might not know what they can do. But some of the places I have been to you would never get a lesson there. Or maybe you would if lessons are conducted on the Grand Envers, for example. It doesn't matter, I'm not anti-lessons at all, I just followed a different route and my buddies and me all learned to ski the same things at the same time.

That has been quite an education, good knows what I would have had to pay for it

A snowHead

Dave Horsley, you actually took lessons to go caving, you just didn't pay for them, unless you were told "here is the rope, just make sure you don't fall".Someone with considerably more experience taught you. Iwouldn't take lessons (or at least i wouldn't pay for them) if i had mates that could teach me the things i want to do. It really depends who your mates are.
I think the real discusssion is getting out alone, with no clue, no mates vs taking lessons. Would you teach yourself how to swim? The first swimmer certainly did, but there is something to be said in favor of using the pre existing knowledge. Also, while you go out on your own, in many skiing situation you pose a real danger to yourself and others

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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JT, fair enough, you are doing what you want to do and getting what you want out of it. That's the important thing.

reading up a couple of paras, Dave Horsley, fair point re your mates. Couiple of key points is that you are in fact getting some coaching and you're in Scotland which might imply more ski opportunity.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Ok, I've skied over 20 yrs, I've skied more than 60 weeks, lost count, I can ski steep stuff, I'm not too bad, can get myself out of trouble, I'll back myself in certain situations, I'm confident in what I can do, I haven't felt the need to have lessons. As I said, we keep each other on our toes.
Who is going to teach me to ski more than 45 degrees which I am sure I have been on more than a few times. I don't mean to sound like I know it all, I'm sure I don't, but I want a guide more than an instructor

The biggest single thing I can do is to improve my fitness, otherwise I think I know what I'm doing and can keep on improving..

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Arno,

Sounds like a good idea to me but what would be the difference between these type courses and say, a UAIGM guy?

Cost would be one, but would the terrain be any different..?

After all it is free

JT, Coombes is UIAGM qualified. I looked into doing one of these a few years back and decided that you were probably paying for the Coombes name - you can stay in the same place and have guided skiing around La Grave with guides who are seriously good skiers for quite a lot less if you don't go through Coombes. That said, there had been a steep camp the week before I went and they had done a couloir which had never been done by a guided group before. Obviously, a lot depends on the abilities of the others there.

Not knocking Coombes at all, btw - he does a lot of guiding around La Grave and Alpe d'Huez. I've exchanged a couple of words with him and he seems like a really nice, laid back guy.

My feeling on guides is a bit "horses for courses". Big generalisation but British guides are usually weaker skiers than French and Swedish guides (the other two nationalities I have seen in action). I think most British guides are climbers/mountaineers first, skiers second. You have to be a solid, safe skier to get the badge, but the French guide I had in La Grave a few years back really was an outstanding skier. He was also a qualified instructor which is quite rare amongst British guides.

Rusty Guy, remember this thread?

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Arno,

My experience of UAIGM has been Italian and French and none were what you would call brilliant brilliant skiers. Don't get me wrong I felt perfectly at ease with them and their competance in the mountains was very reassuring but they also were mountaineers/climbers first and foremost in my view. Even some quite famouns ones from Monterosa. Not that I have any problem with it being this way round. The best skiers were off-piste heli-guides who held other badges, one in Zermatt and a really stylish technician in Cervinia.

For the foreseeable I will continue to use guides rather than have courses. I don't think the rest of my group would want to go down the course route.

Help!!

Lesson obsession

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