Weight Distribution or Angulation - what's more important?

A snowHead

marc gledhill, Yes, and for me, as a leftie, I'm right brain dominant. So, despite having a damaged left knee my turns to the right are technically better.

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Arno, I think you're spot on! Very few people are really ambidextrous. We prefer either the left or right hand - I think it's the same with ski-ing everyone prefers one leg or the other. the leg you ski better on is not necessarily the strongest though, and there seems to be no particular average. I also ski better on my left (weaker leg), but that could also be because I have a pronation in the left foot and my left knee flexes inwards which means better edge more easily. I tried to have my pronation corrected, but the resultant damage to my feet have given me 2½ years of pain (people at the ESOB will be able to verify).

Wear The Fox Hat, Don't be so despondant - just because people don't agree with you, doesn't mean you're always wrong!

mark_s, the point about WC skiers is that in the WC they're ski-ing at their max. Your personal max might be a red or black run (or whatever). When ski-ing at your own personal max (even if that's on a nursery slope), you need to do things correctly. As Martin Bell, says, double carving is fine on nice easy blues, but it doesn't work well on steep icy blacks. If people learn to ski two footed (IMHO) they may later have problems when going steeper/icier etc. If you learn on the outside foot then you can start to use the inside one later, and it then becomes automatic to shift almost constantly, but this is at the advanced level.

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Wear The Fox Hat, not really. You don't use 100% of your muscle strength when you do things like walk, so your body would adapt (unconsciously) to being weaker on one side.

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mark_s, so if we are all lop-sided, with the extra 10% on one side, but we can adapt unconciously, then when we are skiing, but not using 100% of our muscle strength, we should be able to ski one turn as well as the other?

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Wear The Fox Hat, well try it. Go on a decent, but not hugely difficult piste, and make long turns in both directions. And you might not have 10% more strength in one side. I think Arno said/meant up to, so in your case, you might only be very slightly stronger. Or you might be unusual and be almost perfectly 'symmetrical'. And also, some of the ability to turn better in one direction may come from the mind; unconsciously being more comfortable. I'm in no way, shape or form an expert. I'm just theorising and suggesting reasons.

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Wear The Fox Hat, when you do an emergency stop do you tend to do a right or a left turn to initiate it, if it's roughly even then so are you but most people tend to turn in one direction more than the other

D G Orf, Or jump (which foot pushes off)? Or climb steps (which foot do you lift first - usually the weaker one) - lots of other stuff that for most people are not equal. 110m hurdlers moving to 400m - biggest problem is learning to take off from either foot. Little Angel

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You're all perfectly correct.

From now on, I'll change my gym routine to have heavier weights on one side than the other.

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Slikedges.....

To get back to your point of some time ago... I always weight out on the outside ski....so mark me down in that camp.
If it is a real hard scrambling turn then the inside ski will do virtually nothing but balance me....
I will also pick up a ski and place it if needed. Old school, new school, what works, works IMO.
I try to equalise it in deep snow if it makes it easier. My thing here is horses for courses..!!

JT, I'm not criticising the way you ski. I think most people here are outside ski skiers. Or maybe the even stevens on here are just shy. I'm on the fence, but hoping to come down off it sometime this next ski season. What works works simply means you do what works for you. It doesn't help anyone else if you don't understand it and no-one else does either. I'm afraid in this context it's just a platitude.

You know it makes sense.

slikedges, If you don't you'll get a numb bum Shocked

Arno, after left knee injury, my left thigh (left footed) was 1 1/2 inches thinner-2 years after injury. After surgery regained muscle mass, surgeon v. pleased, said did'nt think I'd achieve it!
Did not attend physio, but all gym work, cycling, steppers, treadmill and weights . It will return, lots of effort needed though wink

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slikedges, The trouble is, that you want a definite answer to something that actually doesn't have a definite answer. If anyone says to you "always" have your weight ..................... then you should seriously consider what they're trying to teach you. I've said in the past (many times) that I prefer to teach people outside ski as this works all the time on all pistes/off piste (yes you can do it in powder) whatever. Later (and I presume now for you), you can begin to move more weight onto the inside ski, but you can never arrive at a difinitive answer. Every second of every run you ever do is different from the last one, so you need to be constantly adjusting (assuming you're good enough). More adjustment is required in deep snow as you're knocked around a lot more. I think JT, has said most of it. In any case re-read what Martin Bell said earlier in this thread. After all - he's been there, done it and got a lot of T shirts! Very Happy

A snowHead

easiski, Sorry, but once again you are confusing "definite" for "correct". There is no correct answer for whether we should ski on piste on our outside skis or with more even weighting. Whatever works works rolling eyes

. The move towards more equal weighting on piste has not come about for nothing. There is a reason why it's happened (probably carving skis, I'd guess) and reasons for when and why it may be of benefit. I want to understand these to improve my own skiing. There are definite answers here if you are someone who finds it "whatever works works" for you. You've said often and loudly that you don't believe in it. That said, I didn't need to read Martin Bell's post to have always been convinced that on icy snow the outside ski rules.

A snowHead

slikedges, I don't see the difference between 'correct' and 'definite' in this context Confused

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

easiski, well, you're very kind, but I did get some of my T-shirts quite a while ago, before the shaped ski era.
The fallacious theory that is often propounded nowadays, is that very recent racing technique, of the last couple of seasons, now requires 50/50 distribution.
To counter that, I would submit this up-to-date quote from a World Cup GS skier of last season:
"I lost pressure on my outside ski for a split second, and it sent me careening off course."
You can read the full quote here:
http://www.danespencer.com/December.html (scroll down to Alta Badia, Dec 19th).

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Martin Bell, thank you for your contribution. I in no way intended to diminish it's value. Perhaps I could ask a couple of direct questions though?

1) what advantages, if any, are there to putting any weight on the inside ski on piste?
2) if there are advantages to weighting the inside ski on piste, is there any advantage to having more equally distributed weighting, say 60:40, as compared to 90:10 (outside:inside)?

mark_s, what are they teaching you in school these days? wink

Here's a topical example - skiing and boarding - there is no correct answer as to which is more fun, just opinion - but proponents will have definite reasons why they prefer each. snowHead

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Watching the club racers GS training in July, the kids that were not performing or who were losing an edge were being told that the 'ideal' weighting was 70/30. That can't be too far out as the group included a couple of French champions and one British champion - who weren't being called to task for not following the coach's instructions, and were negotiating the gates most cleanly, with the fastest times, and not losing an edge on the sort of surface (glacier ice) that would see some allegedly advanced intermediates sideslip down and head for the nearest bar wink

.

This of course while bearing in mind previous comments about there being no definitive answer, depending on slope/snow/skier standard etc etc.

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Think back also to the days of side stepping up a slope when you are learning (I am still at that stage!). I find I can side step much better with my left shoulder uphill, I find it quite hard with the right shoulder uphill. I know I should be able to do both equally but given the choice I would make my way uphill to the left.

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The problem with skiing with all your weight switching between one ski and the other is that if your weighted ski fails to hold, e.g it hits a patch of extra hard ice, then you will fall over, the advantage is that it will give you a faster turn, thus racers for whom speed is essential may well ski with very unevenly distributed weighting whilst a recreational skier may find more evenly distributed weighting a lot easier and a lot less risky Laughing

As PG, says there is no definative answer because so much depends on the variables of slope, snow and skier

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D G Orf,

snowbunny, if you have say 90% of your weight going through one foot and it slips you will not have time to recover especially at race speeds, on the other hand with a 60/40 distribution you may have time, one of the reasons that pro ski racers crash so much is because they are skiing right on the edge of what's possible, if they make even quite a small mistake, just momentairily catch an edge or hit a spot of ice in a bad place they go down, recreational skiers skiing in general at less than half race speed and with a more even weight distribution might not even notice the little patch of ice or small rock that could fell a racer, on th eother hand it would take them at least twice as long to cover the same distance wink

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D G Orf, At recreational speeds, even with 100% of weight on the carving ski, I find that there is usually time to finish a turn on the outside edge of "the wrong foot". For me it's a survival skill, move the weight over, then get the act together for the next turn Laughing

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snowbunny, yes but that's at recreational speeds, look at it this way, racing car drivers tend to be some of the best drivers (technically) in the world, their cars are set up for optimum performance far in excess of the vehicle you might have at home and yet they frequently crash often as the result of an impact or mistake that we travelling at normal speeds would barely notice, with skiers it's exactly the same, what you or I travelling at 50kph could easily recover from a racer travelling at 150kph may crash from because they only have 1/3rd of the time to react

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Sometimes too much analysis might not be helping here. It's a dynamic sport and every so often someone will come along and rewrite the rules. Bode Miller was said to be one who did this so its is ok to work things out for yourself. Of course, degrees of talent makes a difference. You need to get to a stage where you know what you are trying to do, understand what went wrong and try something to correct it. Most sports are like this..I know my golf is...
If it were me I would turn on one ski on an easy slope as an excercise, I would then try and even the distribution over the two skis. And on fast flowing runs this will work and be easy to achieve. But when you near your limit in a turn survial instincts take over. The brain is good at this, you don't have to tell it to do it, its done and you have either crashed and burned. This is why mileage and ski hours count very highly, youi have done most of the programmimg. I would be trusting my instincts over this and not be worried if it were 50-50 or 90-10 or even 100-0 %.
Does it really matter..??

JT, I have experiemented with trying the 50/50 or 60/40 distribution. For me it seems to stop me angulating properly and I skid the turn. Have now gone back to around 75/25, before my confidence disappears totally! I am not therefore Bode Miller, shorter, less confident, poorer, less fit, different sex......... wink

You know it makes sense.

I just love it when the experts disagree. It means that someone, somewhere, must think I'm doing something right Laughing

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maggi,

If it is right for you then thats what matters most but then I'm no expert so don't mind me...!!

A snowHead

D G Orf, I don't often disagree with you (is it a Wengen thing?), but this time I do. There is a difference between actual speed and perceived speed, so if one of us is ski-ing at our limit we will have the same lack of time as the WC racer ski-ing at their limit. Here's a quote (not exact words) from John sheddon:

" The beginner perceives himself to be ballistic at 5mph while the ski instructor skis past him, looking backwards, eating his sandwich and talking on the phone. The ski instructor perceives himself to be ballistic at 60mph while the downhill racer skis past him, looking backwards, eating his sandwich and talking on the phone. The Downhill racer perceives himself to be ballistic at 100mph while the speed skier skis past him, looking backwards, eating his sandwich and talking on the phone."

slikedges, Semantics - there's no correct way either! There is no ideal except in particular circumstances, and finding which is where is a matter of experience, but also may depend on the shape of your body the skis you use and about 6 million other things. I'm really sorry - I wish I could say this or that was right, but ......... I think the double carving came in with the fun carvers. You know, no sticks, lying down to the inside of the turn brushing the snow with your inside arm etc. BTW to do this you actually need to be able to turn on your inside ski - 100%.

I have to ski with more weight on the inside ski on my Fischers than I do on my Volkls, and I can pressure the inside ski more on my Volkls than I can on my Scratchs - this is just the different ski design affecting the weight distribution.

PG, I'm slightly confused by your post - were the 70/30's the ones losing their edge or the others? If others, was it because they were ignoring the trainers?

A snowHead

easiski, Ok I'll give you that, however there will be a finite time where there just isn't time to react no matter how good your reactions are, although as you say that time will be less for a racer than for a beginner

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easiski, the 70/30s were the ones following instructions on the whole. The ratio was given as an indication rather than an inflexible rule, helping the younger racers to better appreciate the causes of errors. Those achieving it were the kids with the best times and least mistakes.

This photo taken a couple of years ago of a 10 year old girl from the Orcières club leads me to another question for the experts here. Just how important is the weighting question compared to the issues of balance, centre of gravity firmly over the skis irrespective of weighting, fitness, etc, ie all the other elements that lead to effortless skiing in all conditions. Aren't we getting fixated on the kind of detail that is a touch irrelevant to the majority of leisure skiers at the expense of more important issues?

Alizée's a champion in skiercross, acrobatics, as well as a top 10 alpine racer in her age group in France.

Same aged girl... the centre of gravity firmly over the skis...

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PG,

Out of all those I would say weighting is the least important but then I just know what works for my limited ability.

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PG, that's very enlightening. In my simple-minded world I'd just about convinced myself that on hardpack (I can't ski glacial ice) I'd be 90:10 on outside! I've seen members of the US under-21 alpine team training and was amazed at their ability to skate ice on skis with barely a skid. It was more than a decade ago and I can't remember if they were on one, two or three skis! wink

easiski, I already know that and I completely agree. I'm not asking if or saying there is a correct way. I've said there (probably) isn't one. The only thing I am asking is, to those who believe in more equal weighting, what do they think are the advantages and circumstances for its use. There will definitely be an answer to this if it works for them and they've thought about it. The answers may not necessarily be correct in an absolute sense, so much as in a 'that's what they believe sense'.

JT, I thought I knew what worked for me...To an extent I still do. I can still ski outside only, and probably still revert to this as my natural form if not comfortable. But coming back to skiing and finding carvers and that skiing is different on them made me want to see whether I would get more from them by learning to ski in a more modern manner. I haven't yet settled into a new natural form/technique but thinking about it and asking others as well as practising is helping.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Thanks Martin Bell. I very much take your point as I've always suspected that more pressure on the outside will give more grip, so that other niceties are sometimes best sacrificed to get as much grip as possible. Also that if your legs aren't strong enough but your technique is, you can instead try to gain an optimal compromise. Of course if neither your legs nor technique are strong enough, like me..... rolling eyes

It is invaluable to have the contribution and insight of someone who's really been there at the cutting edge wink

.
Otherwise even when we discuss and try to conclude I sometimes (in this case obviously justifiably) don't feel confident that we've gotten there! This is what we came up with before:

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slikedges, Martin Bell, 's explanation makes sense to me, he puts's it across very clearly.

snowbunny, yes, he has put it across clearly and succinctly. I'm sure it's the closest we're going to get to a definitive answer.

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It's important to keep things in perspective. There is still plenty of inside ski steering (ie. "lifting it around the corner") as you can see from these photos below, where Bode does not have parallel shins and therefore is unlikely to be carving the same arc with the inside ski as with the outside.
http://www.gm3.si/BodeMiller1.jpg
http://bodefanclub.com/images/gallery/266.jpg
http://www.mentaltraining-su.ch/HomepageMental-Training/Graphiken/BodeMiller2.jpg
http://sport.leonardo.it/fnts/sport/immagini/278x210/miller101.jpg
These photos show merely that at certain times, the outside ski is very much in command, although I don't dispute that there are also plenty of examples where the inside ski is being utilised far more than in the "old days".

Taking a slightly different look at recent changes in technique, there is evidence that racers are using slightly less countering, and slightly less hip angulation, than a few years previously. Some people in the US have even claimed that this amounts to a whole new technique called "waisteering", although personally I think that is an exaggeration.

In any case, if you want to get more deeply into these questions, I recommend Epicski, where you can soak up the products of minds who have a far greater analytical command of the theory of ski technique than I do, including my favourite, the legendary "Physicsman".
You'll have plenty to get stuck into; some of these guys put the "anal" into "analytical"!
Here are some interesting threads to start you off:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=8234&highlight=pure+carve+parallel+shins
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=28471

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Weight Distribution or Angulation - what's more important?

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