 Poster: A snowHead
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If you want bump instruction in 3V go to New Generation in Meribel. They have an instructor who did world cup and was British champion MO for many years. He'll teach you how to handle piste bumps too!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
James the Last,
No, you do want edges:
1. you can put in a check at the top of the bump to assist with speed control
2. you want to scrape off speed with your edges as your skis slide off the bump you were on and onto the next one. Definitely - you want edges. |
My big problem with moguls was that when I ski on edges I go faster and faster. The faster I go, the more I dig my edges into the slope, so the faster I go.
My instructor spent ages teaching me to sideslip with the entire flat of the ski on the slope. Big contact area, big friction (compared to knife-edge contact area, much acceleration).
So, turn on the top, and either:
1. get skis on edge and carve and get faster; or
2. keep bases as flat as possible on the edge of the mogul and stay in control.
I'd be interested in your comments, under a new name.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Flat on the up, edged on the down - you want to dig the edges in to scrub off the speed.
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Megamum, That's what makes em so hard... You can't learn at a slow pace, you have to have bit of 'go' to get the dynamism needed.
Best way I found is to seek out small, baby bumps as they're forming (embryonic) and really go for it down there with what technique you have. For me, that was the way to start the 'pole plant in the face of the bump', 'turn on top', 'feet steer' and 'absorption' that are mogul fundamentals (as I see it)
To ever be able to ski huge moguls on steep slopes at pace is surely the hardest thing in all of skiing (bar getting off a chairlift safely while wearing a backpack) and as such is not something sane people should aspire too
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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red 27, sorry, "You can't learn at a slow pace, you have to have bit of 'go' to get the dynamism needed" - no, not at all.
The key to skiing bumps dynamically, IMV, is to learn how to turn on one bump. Then you can turn on as many or as few as you like. Which means becoming fluid at the avalement turns where you:
- absorb the bump nearly completely
- rotate your skis on the top of the bump
- extend into the trough
and repeat.
You can do this on a single bump, then you can do two, three etc.
In between, James the Last, what you want is to be scraping off speed as you slide (sideslip) down the underside of the bump - the more across the slope you let your skis get, the more speed you remove. Key is to keep your speed under control and if you are skiing one bump at a time that should be easier.
To side slip effectively though, you do have to be using your edges.
If you're under adequate control and skiing slowly enough, you can put an edge check in on the top, even to the point of almost coming to a complete stop.
There are two benefits. 1. you ski bumps elegantly and under control. 2. people will say, how cool is that, it looks like (s)he's skiing in slow motion, which to a point you are.
There's a thread around here with a title like "turning on one bump" that goes into more detail.
Skiing huge moguls on steep slopes at pace is something everyone should aspire to. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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under a new name, no need to apologise, all differing views are welcome on the tolerant and friendly site 
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under a new name, The key to skiing bumps is skiing like if it is no bump, as you are skiing short turns on a nice bashed run.
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snowarea, ...and the key to skiing a nice bashed run is, of course, to ski it like it's Tortin on Easter Monday - am I right?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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red 27, It isn't a joke, it was my goal when I was racing in the world cup moguls circuit as a member of the french ski team. Not easy at all, it's a real job!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| snowarea wrote: |
| red 27, It isn't a joke, it was my goal when I was racing in the world cup moguls circuit as a member of the french ski team. Not easy at all, it's a real job! |
Tricky post for all the other experts to follow, Claude 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snowarea wrote: |
| red 27, It isn't a joke, it was my goal when I was racing in the world cup moguls circuit as a member of the french ski team. Not easy at all, it's a real job! |
So now the money question.....
did you get in Kari Traa's pants?
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snowarea, now seriously, how often do you pull air on a nice bashed run... inverted...?
I see your point, completely, but I'm not sure how it helps the OP?
"Just imagine the bumps aren't there and ski the run as normal" - I'm sure that's not what you tell your clients?
Or is it?
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You know it makes sense.
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This thread is quite interesting. I had a moguls session out in Courchevel last week and it was great.
We were taught proper "compression turn" technique on varying steepness of groomed runs, and it worked wonders when put to practice on the bumps. Still no expert in bumps, but i can now ski them much more confidently and is a hell of a lot more control than previous attempts. Drills on the bottom half of the grand couloir was a bit interesting!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hi snowarea. I won't have judged you when you were competing but I've judged all the current French mogul ski team. The person to watch is a young Brittish skier who lives in France. He was 2nd in the World Junior Champs about 10 days ago. I'll try to find a link to see his skiing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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As a middling level recreational skier I always had problems with moguls until I learned how to do compression turns. Very counter intuitive when doing them on a flat run, but they make a huge difference in moguls. It's the difference between turning off the top of the mogul in mid air out of control and turning slowly and in control. It's all about timing.
It took me a while to get it right, I would usually end up not compressing quickly enough and ending up bolt upright on top of mogul number 2.
Now I'm pretty good at left turns, my right turns are a bit hit and miss, so I tend to go down mogul fields diagonally to the right as I need to put in a 1 mogul traverse after many of my right turns to regain control.
Also, yes to keeping the skies flat on the snow (with maybe an edge check on the tops to scrub a little more speed). also I think my old timer's habit of keeping my skis locked together helps.
But, the most important thing is that I'm now enjoying mogul fields rather than dreading them. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spud9,
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always had problems with moguls until I learned how to do compression turns.
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my old timer's habit of keeping my skis locked together helps.
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Ditto to both
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, all praise Scott'n'Rob for unlocking the mysteries of the compression turn.
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Spud9, in fact, credit where it's due, I learned them first from (little) Tom at the EoSB last year, though have worked on them a bit since, with Tim Jackson of Inspired to Ski, as well as Rob'n'Scott.
I still can't ski moguls at speed though. My progress down the mountain is tidy but slow. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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OK, so how does digging the edges in scrub off the speed - as opposed to being a carving turn that puts the speed on? thx.
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James the Last, If you only use angulation you will carve, try adding a small but important amount of rotation in to control your speed.
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You've lost me with those terms.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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James the Last, angulation = just bending sideways in the middle of the body so your legs (and feet) tilt the ski onto its edge, but it keeps pointing in the direction you're travelling and you get the ski running as smoothly and fast as possible.
"Add...a small amount...of rotation" = twist (your feet around the axis of your shins to direct) the skis a small amount across the direction of travel, so their edges are scraping across the snow/bump and giving you speed control.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| OK, so how does digging the edges in scrub off the speed - as opposed to being a carving turn that puts the speed on? thx. |
As in when you do a hockey stop, you have to dig the edges in, otherwise you'll just be sliding sideways. In moguls you want rotation and a bit of sideslipping as well as just forward movement.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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oh, and bear in mind everyone that snowarea generally wasn't traying to do a great deal of slowing down while in competition...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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jjc james, nice work boys. Especially given the flat light? Looks like you were on the stade - I had a lovely line down there in late December.
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You know it makes sense.
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jjc james, tell Dave that that jacket makes him look like a girl 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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GrahamN, clarky999, thanks and understood. Except that, on steepish moguls you (I?) haven't really got that much choice in the direction the skis are rotated and given that, side slipping seems to be much more effective using more bases.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Kari Traa's pants? |
Many many many thanks for that...
Thats wasted a good 30 minutes of my day...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| James the Last wrote: |
| GrahamN, clarky999, thanks and understood. Except that, on steepish moguls you (I?) haven't really got that much choice in the direction the skis are rotated and given that, side slipping seems to be much more effective using more bases. |
Imagine you are standing still on a normal piste, skis perpendicular to the fall line. If you have your bases flat to the slope (so tilted 20/30 degrees or whatever DOWN the hill) you won't be able to stand still and will be slipping sideways down - there's no friction to stop you. If you want to remain still, you tilt your knees, ankles and skis INTO the slope, so you are on your edges. The friction keeps you stationary. If you want to sideslip, flatten out the skis so the bases are at the same angle as the slope. Engage the edges again when you want to stop/slow the sideslip.
Take this into the moguls. You have one bump in front of you. Go up it diagonally (going left, just for examples sake). Allow your knees to move up to your chest to absorb the impact - your torso should stay relatively still (not going up or down with your legs and the bump). Keep the bases fairly flat to the bump. When you get to the top of the shoulder of the bump, pivot your skis to point diagonally down the back of the bump. Tilt your knees/ankles/skis into the back of the bump, engaging the edges. As you slide forwards and sideways (so forwards and down) the use of edges will slow you down - vary the amount of edge for how much you want to slow down.
It would be VERY difficult to slide down the back of a steep bump with your bases flat to it, without toppling over downhill.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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clarky999, Paragraph 1 is obvious.
You may think I'm being difficult for the sake of it here... but my previous experience of moguls has been very much lacking in control, getting my skis more and more on edge, and therefore zooming faster and faster. Instructor spent quite some time teaching me to sideslip "properly" - by putting bases flat on the slope, rather than using edges. I guess with edges unless you're directly parallel to the slope (your para 1) then you'll be heading forwards (or backwards) as if you were on rails and getting faster and faster.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Degrees of edging - it's not a case of just on or off. To keep it slow, you want some lateral skid/sliding movement vertically down the fall line as well as the forward movement on your diagonal path down the back of the mogul, and it's that lateral skidding which will help control speed. Quite hard to explain in words without being able to demo lol.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 30-03-11 20:30; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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James the Last, there are degrees of edge and sideslip.
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You are correct James the Last, in that we normally carve to go fast and skid to slow. However, the fact that we are skidding means there is a sideways component to our travel. This comes with a very unfortunate consequence. Skis are long fore and aft but very narrow side to side. This means that they are good at absorbing undulations that are coming straight at us but dreadful when the direction of travel is much to either side. Watch an expert in cruddy snow and you will see him traveling mostly forwards.
In a mogul field we are not faced with irregular clumps of soft snow that can be pushed out of the way but hard solid, unforgiving lumps. Best not to hit them sideways on!
Another consequence of turning on the top of each mogul and sliding down the back to the bottom is that you will be traveling the maximum possible vertical distance each time. Like the moguls are turned up to maximum volume! If you pick your route more carefully, and edge a bit more, then you can keep a more constant height through the moguls - unless you intentionally go for a big jump and miss out the next trough!
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I don't want to confuse things too much...
...but, ok, what the hell...
Edging and rotation are only one way of controlling speed in moguls and, if you try to only rely on those, then you'll never ski bumps
If fact, bringing your skis too far across the fallline in bumps can be a positive disadvantage as you have to bring them all the way back across the slope again to do the next turn. Put simply, the less you rotate the skis across the fallline, the tighter the line you can take. Bring your skis much more than 30 degrees across the fallline and it becomes impossible to ski the zipper line.
There are two other, linked tactics you can use to control your speed in bumps - your line and how you use the bump (or not) - and flexion and extension.
Have a look at jjc james's video at James's run starting 32 seconds in. Look at the big hit he gets at the sixth(ish) bump and how much he slows down - you can almost see him "hang" at dead stop for a moment.
Rather than skiing around the bump he's deliberating skiing "head on" into the shoulder of the bump by planting the tips of the skis in the trough and aiming them at the shoulder. He takes the hit, dissipating the energy by flexing deeply. Lose energy and you slow down.
If you go onto this page and follow the links through then you'll see how little Ben Cavet rotates his skis across the falline - http://www.avoriazsnowcamps.com/team.php#
It's worth saying that the cost of this is higher average speed - although he's not accelerating down the hill once he's got going.
IMV, one of the hardest things to learn in bumps skiing is this relationship between line and flexion/extension. Most instructors will tell you to flex, but what they don't tell you is that you've got to aim at the bump to make it worthwhile.
The closer to the zipper line you ski, the more you have to transfer from edging / rotation as speed control tactic to using line / flexion / extension. If you look at competition bump skiers they tend not to edge much or rotate their skis across the fallline. 80% of their speed control comes from flexion / extension.
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These moguls have to be worth getting grips with. It still amazes me how they build up in the first place, but given that they do I don't think I can expect to ski and never be unexpectedly faced with a few to deal with. Mind you that said I can probably cope with a few small ones - say 50 yards of tiddlers, it's the more prolonged sets that I think would still do my head in even on a shallow run.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I don't think I can expect to ski and never be unexpectedly faced with a few to deal with. |
Nominates Megamum for the Donald Rumsfeld Snowheads award for Unexpecting the Expected.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 1-04-11 14:42; edited 1 time in total
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Megamum, being able to ski moguls unlocks a hell of a lot more of the mountain. It has to be worth learning how to ski them. Plus, moguls are fun and rewarding to ski. I'd take a mogul field any day over a boilerplate piste full of out of control numpties.
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FAQ
