 Poster: A snowHead
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snowball,
yep i get it - but charging more doesn't always bring repeat custom if the experience doesn't match expectation. Sometimes better to charge less and have more punters (oops said the P word) who will spend on other stuff in resort as well. who knows the answer? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Scottish resorts have to pay VAT on lift passes (17.5%) which apparently European resorts don't.
None of the resorts actually make money - and in a good season they need to fill the bank account to cover for the leaner years.
Personally I don't think £25 / 30 is unreasonable for a single day pass. Fundamentally Ski resorts are expensive to operate.
Even the very cheapest alpine lift passes, at a small resort off the tourist trail, will come in at £20+ (and they may not pay VAT).
Places like Chamonix / Verbier are charging closer to £50 per day - which is alot!
As mentioned before its the transport and accommodation that bump up the cost (much like skiing anywhere on the globe!).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Also the four day vouchers are good value at a tonne and they can be used non consecutively.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Haggis_Trap,
point taken,
does anyone know how much business a facility such as Nevis range brings to the local economy over a season (food, lodging, visits to other attractions etc etc)
thats not including the income for ski pass, rental etc
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
And only 2 real stinkers (03, 05) when lack of snow was a real issue. |
2005? Really?
The day before that I was at Nevis and the Braveheart chair ran. The season ended early but it was pretty good while it lasted.
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Plus we have drag lifts so you are skiing 100% of the time whereas in most of Europe you have to sit on those pesky chairlifts 
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You scots are a masochistic bunch
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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so is a kilt a snowskirt? 
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I think thats quite good value. You'd pay £8 for an hour and a half in a cinema! So 7 hours on the slopes for 30 quid seems fine to me. I have to pay between £20 and £30 to watch my football team play for an hour and a half. I paid £80 for a rock concert last year and not far off to go to the west end to watch a show. Most theme parks are prices around £30 for entry and even if I wanted to ten pin bowl for 7 hours it would cost me far more than £30. As a day out in britain goes i think it's not bad at all.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'd be interested what this 19 euro a day ski station in France is. Anybody know?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| freeheelskier wrote: |
Haggis_Trap,
| Quote: |
- Chamonix full area is 50 euros for 1 day (so £45!).
- Verbier is 67chf for 1 day (£45)
- 3 Valleys is 47 euros for 1 day (£43).
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Is it OK to compare with Cairngorm and Nevis Range |
If a Ski Area A with 50 lifts charged £50, it doesn't follow that Ski Area B with 5 lifts could charge or should charge £5. If both areas had the same type of lifts uplifting 1000ppl per hour, consider that:
Ski Area A is 50 x 1000 = 50,000 persons per hour uplift capacity
Ski Area B is 5 x 1000 = 5,000 persons per hour uplift capacity
The effective cost per lift, and thus per customer doesn't change. Indeed if anything large areas may have some economies of scale to help suppress costs slightly.
Given the original poster posted from France one difference is that ticket prices here include VAT at soon to be 20%, while France classifies ski uplift as public transport.
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You know it makes sense.
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Winterhighland, I want that you read a little about the french VAT system, and the skiresort in Suisse have no VAT to pay, but the prices for skipasses are the same in the big alp resorts for the same size of skisystem
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I can agree with Bergmeister, when he compare with football, it depends what you like to do 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I was at the lecht yesterday and had a great time. It occurred to me that they should do what they do in Norway at Hemsedal to make hay while the sun dont shine. Have a couple of runs floodlit for evening sking and have a ski part in the coffeee room. ONly running 2 tows and three runs would be fine. Hemsedal do it and charge something like £15/day evening sking. You would then get people having evening dinner there and generating more money. Then you could top up those 2 runs with snow cannons. Making hay etc etc
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The issue they have is that charging 'high' prices leads to reasonable expectations. For instance, we paid a hefty ticket fee last year at Nevis, but there was no way to easily get back to the cafe \ toilets which meant my wife only skied a couple of runs. She couldn't be bothered hiking over 200m of heather for a loo stop.
The deeply frustrating thing was, it would have been a piece of cake to run a tractor\trailer 'bus' and give a basic level of 'service' - while selling more coffee\cake.
My impression is that Scottish skiing has become inward looking, focusing on regular 'locals' seemingly having given up on 'tourist' skiers.
And the infrastructure. I was watching an old BASI video from Cairngorm from years ago (1800's?) and the hill looked exactly the same....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| She couldn't be bothered hiking over 200m of heather for a loo stop. |
The walk from bottom of the quad chair to cafe takes 2 minutes! <fact>
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
The deeply frustrating thing was, it would have been a piece of cake to run a tractor\trailer 'bus' and give a basic level of 'service' - while selling more coffee\cake.
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The front of the mountain is an SSSI, the site is also leased from British Alcan who also have restrictions on extent of use of machinery off the snow on bare ground to avoid potential erosion which could impact water quality on intakes for the Smelter. These restrictions are also why the upper half of the MTB trails are closed for lift served riding from October to early May.
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Haggis_Trap, Don't get me wrong - I really am a fan of Scottish Skiing and will make the effort to get up to Glencoe \ Nevis again this year.
The point I'm trying to make is that with a little effort by the resorts they could broaden their market, especially if the current weather patterns persist. More customers = more money for lifts. As I said above they seem to be inward looking and the current pricing is not matched by a reasonable effort to provide a good customer experiences in the elements with in their control.
While the Alps is as close for South East, flying these days is becoming more and more of a pain, so the idea of a drive up to Scotland is becoming more appealing. As far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with the skiing.
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Not sure where you get the idea of lack of effort from ?
In my opinion all 5 resorts bust a gut, on limited resources, to make the most of Scottish snow. Running a ski resort in Scotland is always going to be a challenge - the variable weather certainly doesn't help. However the staff are usually very friendly as well - when was the last time you got any craic out of a french liftie
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| The point I'm trying to make is that with a little effort by the resorts they could broaden their market |
| Quote: |
| In my opinion all 5 resorts bust a gut, on limited resources, to make the most of Scottish snow. |
I have to say I think both sides of this are valid points, which underlines just how silly it is when the Scottish Ski Areas frequently shoot themselves in the foot over the little things, often little things that don't require financial outlay or great effort, just a little bit of attention and thought.
One thing that infuriates me given the technology we have today is the lack of on mountain information, esp at CairnGorm where in the mid 80's every area of the Daylodge had a computer display with as good as real time weather and lift status and snow report, also in the Sheiling and at the Ciste Base Station. A small board at the Daylodge Poma with the status of the West Wall Poma and Shuttle Bus would be good too. There is one trinum screen in use now on the 'Gorm, on the down platform of the Funicular - fantastic location for ski information!
Another ongoing thing that isn't difficult or require rocket science to fix is the shambles of a queue that occurs at many lifts, some esp so. Exhibit A: The Ptarmigan Tow, every year people comment on it, every year CML says it will be sorted, but nothing every actually happens. Sometimes it's half way up the run, sometimes completely blocking the run past to the Ciste. It would only take a few minutes each morning to set up if not a full queuing maze, at least put out some poles to try and demark a queuing area and a sign asking people to queue below this point.
Loading on the tows, esp the Ciste and Ptarmigan Tow where less experienced skiers are concentrated would be easier with the permanent use of backboards, to stop people sliding back on loading areas if not flat, posts/signs to demark where to wait before moving forward could help too.
Which brings me onto another small thing that can have a big impact, ramp maintenance. It's all to often non existent and a complete mess which increases mishaps on loading and thus queues and frustration. Good quality large rakes are the tool for the job in keeping the ramps level and stopping them getting slick, shovels for moving snow and filling holes yes, but shovels are not the best tool for keeping ramps in good nick.
One specific CairnGorm problem that is far worse on the 'Gorm than anywhere else in Scotland is ticketing - it's slow, inefficient, frustrating and queuing time is frequently unacceptable. Get all the different ticket options (pre-booked, cash sales, general sales) in one place and separate out the hire/ski school to specific windows, put the winter ticketing into the Daylodge T-bar and get it out of the Base Station entirely. Better ticketing system, Base Station free for queuing for the Funicular and get rid of the problem of the ticket and funicular queues merging into one mele!
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Haggis_Trap,
its great that you are defending scottish ski resorts and you are making some very sensible and in my opinion correct arguments. However, i would also suggest you take another read of the crticial comments in this thread, take a step back and consider them.
i have tried to do that and my summary would be, acceptable skiing which can be great, weather mixed can be a problem, tickets wide variation in percieved value, willing and friendly staff, resorts just getting by financially, most users are relative locals (up to 3 hours away)
perhaps the questions to ask are;
is this just the way it is and Scot Ski cant do any better? or
is there a way of increasing the number of users and increase the footfall and other spend?
i dont know the answer, but at least consider the possibilities instead of just telling folk they are wrong, as that doesn't tend to bring in extra business.
good luck
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skitow,
€166 for a season pass! What a bargin
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[quote="linso"]offpisteskiing,
To turn someone else's quote above on its head, skiing in Scotland remains (and will always be) a niche activity in the grand scheme of things
yep, good point, well made - i just wonder if someone was brave enough to go for a family friendly pricing structure, would it work? Aiming to make the real money on refreshments, lessons, coaching etc etc. Or am i just dreaming?
http://www.ot-lans-en-vercors.fr/fr/boutique/default.cfm
It looks to me like this resort HAS taken the trouble to go for a sensible, creative and enticing pricing structure - so it CAN be done. I wonder what the results are? do you know?[/url]
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You know it makes sense.
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Small French Resorts may not be the fairest comparison. I bet its propped up by the commune/subsidies. I have skied other small resorts in the same area that I'd have been amazed if they were profitable.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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scottishskier,
Do any of the businesses in/around the areas of the scottish resorts put any money into the ski facilities? i say this assuming that accomodation, restaurants etc benefit from the ski trade.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Alan - just because you have a serious anti-CML agenda there is no need to tar all of the Scottish resorts with your "management cant be bothered and it will ruin your day" myth.
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| its great that you are defending scottish ski resorts and you are making some very sensible and in my opinion correct arguments. However, i would also suggest you take another read of the crticial comments in this thread, take a step back and consider them. |
Dam right - grew up skiing in Scotland.
Have also been lucky enough to ski all over the globe, including several full seasons.
On the very best days I know Scottish skiing can be as good as anywhere.
However... Comparing Scottish resorts to the alps totally misses the point.
Scotland's market always has been home based skiers - even in the 1970s and 1980s.
Last winter they had the most skiers since 1994 - so they must be doing something right ?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with small locals resorts where "skiing is still a past time".
And that is exactly what Scotland is. All things considered it does very well considering the very variable conditions.
6 months of lift served skiing last winter was just amazing
Why kid yourself that Scottish skiing is (or should be) something else ?
Because it never has, or will be, a long haul ski destination like the alps.
Personally I feel damn lucky to having skiing, and small mountains, within easy day trip of a city.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Haggis_Trap,
oh dear - raw nerve
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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[quote="Haggis_Trap"]Alan - just because you have a serious anti-CML agenda there is no need to tar all of the Scottish resorts with your "management cant be bothered and it will ruin your day" myth.
Don't know who 'Alan' is, but once again Haggis_trap is failing to grasp the reality of the discussion here. There are enough posts in this thread from several different users all pointing to the same issues. Apart from these issues the posts are all supportive of scottish resorts. Presumably these users have skied or may consider skiing at the scottish resorts. To simply tell the users that they are wrong does not solve the issues. It is a perfectly reasonable analogy to compare the Scot resorts with smaller european ones (as they often rely on local skiers). What Scotland must contend with is the variable weather and snow cover. It is no coincidence that last year was a great year as it correlated with the dumping of lots of snow.
However, if Haggis_trap is correct then Scottish Resorts have nothing to fear as they have good value pricing, secure 'local' customer base and excellent facilities.
Lets hopw he or she is correct. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Alan = winterhighland.com. Who,right or wrong, clearly has an anti-CML agenda.
| Quote: |
| but once again Haggis_trap is failing to grasp the reality of the discussion here. There are enough posts in this thread from several different users all pointing to the same issues. |
Whats specific issues ? Please give clear examples of instances where Scottish resorts "cant be bothered making effort". Which is exactly what you are implying. Because to claim so is quite frankly utter bull-sh!te.
Surely its my right to defend the Scottish ski resorts ? I honestly believe, hand on heart, that the 5 resorts do a great job. For example Glenshee, Lecht and Glencoe have tiny resources - and between them only employ a handful of permanent year round staff. Even Cairngorm and Nevis Range (the big boys?) have budgets and resources way smaller than you can imagine.
| Quote: |
| To simply tell the users that they are wrong does not solve the issues. |
Not saying they are wrong. However people need to be pragmatic and see Scottish skiing for exactly what it is.
Unless they have a spare £10 million to invest in snow-making, new gondolas, new groomers, new cafes, new tunnels for access roads etc....
Pretending Scotland should aim to to be an alternative to holidays in the alps is really dumb.
But its still a great fantastic place to ski for those who live nearby.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
However people need to be pragmatic and see Scottish skiing for exactly what it is.
Unless they have a spare £10 million to invest in snow-making, new gondolas, new groomers, new cafes, new tunnels for access roads etc....
Pretending Scotland should aim to to be an alternative to holidays in the alps is really dumb.
But its still a great fantastic place to ski for those who live nearby. |
Even if Scotland's ski centres could get the investment, the planning permissions, the consistent snow and a million additional annual skier days, most of those extra visitors would complain that the sausage is too square, that it doesn't feel French enough and that it gets dark too early.
What's 'vive la difference' in Gaelic ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Alan = winterhighland.com. Who,right or wrong, clearly has an anti-CML agenda. ok thanks for info
| Quote: |
| but once again Haggis_trap is failing to grasp the reality of the discussion here. There are enough posts in this thread from several different users all pointing to the same issues. |
| Quote: |
| Whats specific issues ? Please give clear examples of instances where Scottish resorts "cant be bothered making effort". Which is exactly what you are implying. Because to claim so is quite frankly utter bull-sh!te. |
i did not imply this, you inferred it.
the specific issues are to do with 'perceived value' and 'customer care/service'
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| Surely its my right to defend the Scottish ski resorts ? I honestly believe, hand on heart, that the 5 resorts do a great job. For example Glenshee, Lecht and Glencoe have tiny resources - and between them only employ a handful of permanent year round staff. Even Cairngorm and Nevis Range (the big boys?) have budgets and resources way smaller than you can imagine. |
i agree with you
| Quote: |
| To simply tell the users that they are wrong does not solve the issues. |
Not saying they are wrong. However people need to be pragmatic and see Scottish skiing for exactly what it is.
Unless they have a spare £10 million to invest in snow-making, new gondolas, new groomers, new cafes, new tunnels for access roads etc....
| Quote: |
Pretending Scotland should aim to to be an alternative to holidays in the alps is really dumb.
But its still a great fantastic place to ski for those who live nearby. |
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again - i agree with you, but isn't it you sensible to consider if changres could increase revenue?
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Haggis_Trap. Some of the things mentioned above by myself and others are all points that are made again and again about Scottish Skiing that take little to change for the better. Of course there is a mindset in parts of the Scottish Ski community which is very much "it's a local ski area for local skiers".
I do not have an anti CML agenda. I have a pro skiing on CairnGorm Mountain agenda. But you seem to have a problem with the fact folk spoke out against the established wisdom of the ski area management and got at least some of the decisions from the core lift policy reversed. That in itself saved the Daylodge Poma from going the same way as the Aonach, and how long then before the West Wall Poma was next. If everyone was a happy clapper the ski area would have been seriously diminished, reinstatement of chairlifts wouldn't be getting talked about because they would have already be gone - for ever.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Spreading the myth that Scottish ski centres are badly run
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Is it a myth that the weather in Scotland change quick? from with alot of rain, to colder with snow,, and wery good sloops for a few days. yes I know that last sesaons was very good, and that this sesaons have started in a nice way. But look back for the last 35 year, and you will find out, that to take care about to make buissnes of a skiresort in Scotland, that man or women must be made by steel,, But it´s la nice part of europe, and if there is snow, go for skiing and enjoy it, when U can,, If I realy can know when it will be good, I can realy like to come to SCotland and skiing there for a week
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Haggis_Trap, No one is saying that the skiing is poor, or that individuals working for the lift companies are not pleasant. We met some lovely people on our trip, but to be fair also experienced some stuff that was dreadful.
Your argument that Scottish Skiing is just the way it is, and for 'Locals' is a kop out, but unfortunately seems to represent the view the of resorts. The problem is that servicing Locals doesn't generate enough revenue for reinvestment, and that's why I still say that 'Scottish Skiing' is inward looking. As a result it's missing an opportunity to service the wider 'tourist' market. Last year saw record visitor numbers, but my guess is a fair few won't be returning due to the trivial cr@p mentioned above. This stuff doesn't cost much (if anything) to fix, and we're not talking millions on new infrastructure, rather the management running the resorts remembering that:
a.) Some visitors will not have been before.
b.) The life time value of a returning client is huge - so lets try and get them to come back.
c.) The purchase of a lift ticket demonstrtates an unwillingness to walk.
Yesterday I hiked to 450m up our local Shropshire Hill for 150m of skiing, so I don't mind roughing it. But when someone takes hard cash off me I expect a basic level of service and thoughtfulness in return.
I'm really frustrated by this because I can see how good a product Scottish skiing could be - but the current set up(s) seem unable to align their offering to the wider audience who will be needed to pay for it. (Assuming the weather stays with us.)
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FAQ
...is that they are also some of the least busy ski stations in Europe (most of the season) and if you then measured your value for money in £'s per person per ski run mile rather than Euros per theoretically available kilometre, then the Scotland proposition would provide a different (maybe better) value for money. Yes, there are fewer (but quieter) pisted miles in Scotland instead of more kilometres of (mobbed) ant hills and rat runs in Euroville but when I pays my money, I'm more than happy with either. 
for away fans at Sid James's Park, £40 at Anfield and £50 at Stamford Bridge (although it would have been worth twice that this season 