 Poster: A snowHead
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No, it's definitely forward. You can feel the difference when it's not, when it instead pops you up. And sometimes if done improperly it just bleeds off into nothingness, and does ziltch. Not sure I can completely explain it for you anymore than I've already attempted. I will say, though, the common cause of losing the forward energy is hanging on the ski too long. Then things go flat. Release early, into the exit line. Don't wait till you're already there.
Sorry, best I can do with this one. It's just too dynamic to explain through a keyboard. It really has to be played with, felt and discovered on snow.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| FastMan wrote: |
| The tips get the turn initiated aggressively, then getting off the tips releases the brakes and lets the skis accelerate through the body and exit of the turn. |
I'm guessing this is faster because it enables you to do more of the turn before you reach the fall line and to take a straighter line, closer to the fall line, as you come out of the turn? This minimises whatever speed loss you are going to suffer as you get around the gate.
I see this as different to pumping the skis, which does provide a motive force down the hill because you are able to release some energy down the hill, if you time it well. |
Yep, that's definitely part of it. Loading the shovels gets the turn going quick/strong. Without it, you're likely to get late and be jamming though the bottom of the turn if you're carrying any type of speed.
And yep again, it's not pumping. This is using and directing the external forces that exist to our advantage. Pumping is actually self creating additional forces. Interestingly, on a gentle slope one can go faster pumping turns than just running straight down the falline.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Matt i think as a physicist you forgot something....yes it is definitely possible to accelerate out of a turn and it is due to IMPULSE......
which in ski racing is creating a significant amount of force over the shortest period of time so you dont hang onto the turn too long (minimize the deceleration as rob says), you can increase your speed down the hill by applying impulse (pumping as fastman says) in the appropriate phase of the turn and by creating impulse to well edged skis (a solid platform) will produce a trampoline effect that feels like squeezing hard on a bar of soap nothing happens until it shoot forward out of your hand.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| Interestingly, on a gentle slope one can go faster pumping turns than just running straight down the falline. |
That's the only time I can manage to do it with any consistency, and only when using my springy slalom skis. In other circumstances I just can't get the timing right because I'm too pre-occupied with other stuff (like keeping on my feet at high speed) 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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How about...(though I am totally making this up - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing).
A skating step pushes you forwards a bit like sailing into the wind in a dinghy. You push against your ski and initially it travels out at an angle from your intended direction. It is on edge so it can only go where it is pointing, not where you are facing. If you had both skis on edge in a reverse snow plough and just did the splits, you'd move directly forwards (just before rupturing something) because your centre of mass is dropping and that potential energy is converted to kinetic energy ie forward motion.
When you are carving a turn, your centre of mass follows a different path from the skis as you sink down in the first part of the turn. So your body has some kinetic energy downwards towards the ski. Then as you push in the second part of the turn and straighten out the skis path you are pushing your skis out in a strighter path than your centre of mass is travelling, so they accelerate in that direction.
Maybe. A bit.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Does nobody else find this as interesting as i do? (pointed out already, i am not cool) There are a number of very intelligent, experienced skiers here arguing over something that has been bread and butter for racers for so many years. WHY in skiing is a hard nut to crack.
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Consider the arc’s we make carving down a slope, short radius so our body(!) is down the centre of the skis (and fallline) at all times; the best I can do without pictures is:
.!)
(!
.!)
(!
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After we have stared the first turn; the skis move away from the body, and then at some point we change edge and the ski continues the arc, and at some point starts to come back around the arc and eventually starts to travel back towards us.
Now consider is we start to push the skis as soon as they change edge so we are on the NEW inside edges, but they are on the downhill edge(at a guess around 1 or 2 o’clock on the clock face when turning to skier right) ; at this point our body is unsupported (and falling, our legs are extending) until the skis come around the rest of the arc (outwards) and catch us coming back (4 and 5 on a clock face, legs are now flexing); the skis now cross under us and then continue to Skiers left and continue on the downhill edge for a while (11 o’clock ish) and then we are falling again to 8 or 7 o’clock).
Now; if we assist the skis by extending our legs at the point the edge set changes (1 o’clock, or 11 o’clock) we can increase the speed of fall, and thus speed over the snow.
(edit; added the "." to make the body ! stay down the fall line)
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| dulcamara wrote: |
Does nobody else find this as interesting as i do?...
WHY in skiing is a hard nut to crack. |
yes and
Fastman said earlier "It's just too dynamic to explain through a keyboard"
Its interesting to both try to explain and see what others think
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| scooby_simon wrote: |
| (edit; added the "." to make the body ! stay down the fall line) |
Pole plant?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think the well-timed release has been well described here but pumping, is this like a drawn out and progressive skating move, extending on cleanly edged inside edge of outside ski in phase 1 and 2 with inside edge of inside ski simultaneously carving on snow, then edge change and repeat?
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You know it makes sense.
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slikedges, think about the young kids on skateboards or surf boards... how they 'pump' to try to keep/get going on flatter bits... Seems kind of similar - you put energy into system with your legs...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
like a drawn out and progressive skating move
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I am pretty sure that the German/Austrian term for this is "aufscheren"** i.e. to utilise the above to accelarate out of the turn.*
*by way of disclaimer my comment is purely of a linguistic nature.
** literally translated this mirrors the motion of an opening scissor.
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FAQ
