 Poster: A snowHead
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Simon Cross, yes, that would be of interest.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I've just heard of a family with 3 children aged 6 and younger, who have booked flights arriving late on New Year's Day, and a VERY long list of 'must-haves', none of which can - apparently - be flexed, and are getting quite panicy about finding somewhere.
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 well they're stupid. There will always be unreasonable people. I've done two last minute deals (long time ago now, as we have our own place) and both provided BIG savings, one on a fairly basic but good value chalet with Ski World, the other a rather nice one with Le Ski. Roughly half price IIRC. We were flexible on everything - date, country, kind of accommodation. I also did a very good deal with all kinds of discounts with Snowcoach at one of the ski shows - kids sharing a 7 bed room got big discounts and free equipment hire and the whole party got free insurance and free upgrade to best coach seats. Again, it was a bargain, but given our needs and the nature of the group, early booking made sense. The kids had an absolute ball in their "dorm" room - they loved it, all the cousins in together.
The Brits are really into early booking. As Hells Bells says, the French tend to leave it a lot later for all except the few peak weeks. when the Brits are panicking about booking ski holidays in may and June, the French agencies tend to be closed and not answering their emails. Booking a ski holiday in May for the following March is like getting all your Christmas shopping done before the end of October. I really couldn't be bothered.
Simon Cross - yes, it's always interesting to learn about how things work.
P.S. If there were no "last minute bargains" why would all the TOs spend marketing budgets urging us to book early and providing (modest) incentives for us to do so?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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From looking around for decent chalet spaces Jan/Feb, the good operators that I have on my wish list were largely booked up - we couldn't find double rooms in several of the chalets we wanted, but did find the last available room in one or two chalets that were a compromise but still good for us.
As always, the good and smaller operators who have lots of returning customers will be more than able to fill capacity. The big players may need to discount to fill their availability, but there's a couple I just don't want to travel with. They are also not cheaper than the high quality operators I want to book with.
Last minute deals are great, but only if you are prepared to compromise and take whatever you can get. Personally I'm laid back about it, but have minimum standards that have to be met for me to relax on a holiday. The cheap leftover spaces are usually leftover for a reason. They're not popular. That usually means they're not good value for money or there's something (could be something tiny) that isn't right about it.
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Simon Cross, a tour of the building and a lavish lunch, great idea. How many can you manage? In all seriousness it would be a ground-breaking exercise.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Simon Cross, please reveal all, I'm intrigued! Your previous contribution has provoked quite a discussion!
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His job is to maximise revenues from a time-limited commodity, mine is to make sure it's not out of my wallet and I was hoping that others (not least the OP) might benefit from someone who has had experience of booking late.
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luigi, and not only time-limited - weather-dependent, ash cloud-affected, school holiday-determined, economy-related, exchange rate-affected - all create opportunities for the likes of us to nab a bargain. Luckily it takes all types and many just want to get it booked and paid for.
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Simon Cross, I think any insights, behind the scenes as it were, of the tour op business would be of great interest (to me at least and some people here.)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Simon Cross, as one of your satisfied customers, I'd certainly be interested too!
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You may get "one" method from Simon and another method someone else. In fact there are as many methods as there are TO's.
Here is ours (our 2012 prices go up in 2 weeks) and I challenge anyone to tell us what is wrong with it.
Work out the cost of what you are providing.
Add in a reasonable margin
Charge that price
Hmmmm, that's it really.
It’s the working out what the trip will cost that’s an art. It’s not as simple as it sounds… ie. Most people have never heard of SH’s, but when they book they are, in part, contributing towards it’s running via the adverts that we take out. They are also paying for the box of paper clips we got yesterday, the keyboard I’m typing on now, Gemma’s car parking at Liverpool airport last week (one day trip to Venice for meeting), the back office window that was broken by hailstones this March, etc, etc. TO’s cost are not just about flights and hotels.
Notes…..
* Never (ever) discount as it "really p*sses off people who have already booked. Sorry Luigi you’ll have to book elsewhere.
* Have a contract with suppliers (hotels, coach Co's, ski schools, hire shops, etc) that allow us to release anything unsold at the end of November.
* Never (ever, ever, ever) block option flights (ever, ever, ever). Almost every TO's that goes bust does so due block options of flights.
OK we don’t take as many people as Simon – 26,470 this year (summer and winter), Down on last year by 37 people. Mind you we cancelled two Inca Trail treks and one Kilimanjaro trek due to the Ash Cloud so without that we would have been (ever-so) slightly up. Swings and round-a-bouts.
Next
Skiing. Only book hotels that are “really” within walking distance of the slopes.
Peru. Only use 4 star hotels (as they are really 3 so anything less is daft)
Nepal. Always fly to Lukla as the coach trip is a pig of a trip
Tanzania. Give people a few days to relax when they arrive
France. Use a local agency to book everything as the locals are weird
Equator. Use a local agency to book everything as the locals are weird
Dutch Antilles. Ensure people keep taking the malaria tablets (whatever it tell you in the brochures and on the doctor’s wall chart)
USA. Give people a few days with nothing organised at the end of the trip
Tibet. Bribe the local (Chinese) gov so our group get precedence over other groups (yeah I know not fair, but.....)
Yorkshire. Pay big deposits that other Co’s can’t afford to get the best rates
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Remember that people really won’t care if we go bust. OK if they have booked and have to wait a while for the CAA to give them their ATOL money back they would be a bit peeved.
But the gist of this is that we could discount till the cows came home and still never satisfy some people who, in their desperation to get what they see as a “bargain” will squeeze and squeeze until there is nothing left. But this would also have the benefit of their being able to crow about their bargain on a web forum and give them something to say over coffee.
The fact that they (and others) bullied the company they booked with into financial difficulties will never be noted as it will be blamed on poor practices and a bad business model and… well the list is endless (with hindsight), but the one thing that will never be highlighted is the group of people who paid £10 for something that cost £11 – never their fault ya see.
The be all and end all of it is that I know that it cost me £XYZ to supply something, if I discount lower than this then ….. well lets just say it’s not a good idea.
Best bet – don’t discount
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Wayne wrote: |
Work out the cost of what you are providing.
Add in a reasonable margin
Charge that price
Hmmmm, that's it really.
Sorry Luigi you’ll have to book elsewhere.
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Sounds like you've got it sussed Wayne.
At least your method avoids what Maggi and Sarah were seeing with prices constantly fluctuating up and down due to the sophisticated yield management systems used by some tour ops.
Maybe if circumstances dictate that I need to book early some time in the future, I'll come to you with your honest pricing model.
Meanwhile I'll be playing the game with the big boys' computers, they need us as much as we need them! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| luigi wrote: |
| Sounds like you've got it sussed Wayne. |
Not really, or I wouldn't be sitting in the same office where I've been on and off since 1984, I'd be in a plush London pent-house stroking a fluffy white cat as I planned my next stage of world domination.
PS. On this (specific) point – why do Bond baddies always tell him what their going to do and so give him the chance to stop em  .
So, the next time I bribe the world's governments into giving me all their cream cakes (for ever) by sending a couple of nuclear bombs into space on the rockets I’ve just nicked from NASA; the rockets being crewed by Bond Girls and me, ya see. Well I’m not telling anyone about the big red button marked “Rocket Off – Do Not Push”…. Try and stop me now.
Ooops. Doh
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| Wayne wrote: |
| bullied the company they booked with into financial difficulties |
I can't see why you think it works like that, Wayne. I know you don't like it but all participants in the discounting game are willing participants, no coercion involved!
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You know it makes sense.
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Wayne, takes two to tango though, doesn't it? When companies use hyper-flexible demand led/marginal cost based pricing models, customers who don't haggle are fools. I am not a natural-born haggler but have been staggered by big savings (over £200) last week, through ringing my car and travel insurance providers and telling them I am NOT going to pay the daft renewal premiums they've sent me. I have stayed with the companies but saved a lot of money. I did the same with Sky - was genuinely going to chuck it, but when I rang to say so, was offered a worthwhile saving to continue to "think about it". ISPs are the same - when I rang to stop AOL after many, many, years of "loyalty" (= stupidity) and was offered a hefty discount to stay, I told them to stuff it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think it is some companies who do not treat loyal customers well. Eg. T- mobile. I've had a phone for years with them on a monthly contract £10 a month. The deal started with 30 minutes of free calls. They never offered me a better deal or a phone upgrade until I finally got round to checking what the current deals were and now for the same price have new state of the art phone, 100 minutes of calls, free calls to any landline and a number of free texts. I've also noticed virgin media are always offering better deals to new customers rather than rewarding people who have been loyal to them for years. T-mobile I stuck with as it saved hassle. If I had any alternative to virgin media I'd switch but we don't - poor tv reception area and satellite dishes banned in our road.
To go back to skiing I'd imagine it is a difficult year for TOs. The Sunday to Sunday issue at Christmas and New Year effecting 3 weeks of the season. Only one lucrative half term week and then the late Easter. Plus continued economic gloom.
I'd imagine there will be more New Year/first week of Jan and Easter deals available this time. Maybe less discounting on the off peak weeks as they will be more popular with people not wanting to do Sunday to Sunday or wanting to risk waiting till Easter when possibly not much snow. If there is plenty of early snow maybe the TOs will be able to breath a sigh of relief.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wayne, fantastic info but sure you missed:
"Yorkshire. Use a local agency to book everything as the locals are weird"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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While I agree with pam w and snowymum about the problem of renewing on-going contracts vs being a new customer, surely there is some responsibility on the customer to ensure that they are getting the best deal for them? After all, as both have admitted, a quick phone call inevitably gets you a better price (except with Wayne of course ). So the lesson is - make the call and actively manage all of your services rather than slip into the comfort of inertia.
I've never understood the continued focus on new customers rather than retention of existing ones but that doesn't mean I don't play the game. There seems to be little impact on insurance or investment from constantly changing and the advent of on-line comparison sites and application makes the whole process very easy.
Back on topic, if there were never any discounted prices people would never have this discussion. But you only need one of the operators to use a different business model to Wayne and the box is open.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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surely there is some responsibility on the customer to ensure that they are getting the best deal for them?
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Yes, of course - but things have been changing and maybe some of us have been too slow to wake up to the need to push for discounts, or even "fair play" for existing vis a vis new customers. That was the point I was making, really, in response to Wayne's suggestion that people who push for discounts are pushing companies to the wall. If all companies had the same policy as his, this wouldn't arise - but companies with such transparent pricing seem to be in a minority these days.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hi all
It's great to hear how passionate people are about the ski industry - even if they tend to be a bit suspicious about tour ops. Obviously I didn't expect anything else from snowheads!
I will have to get the marketing bods here on the case to open up what we do a bit more.
Having come from a commercial Tour Op background myself it's always surprised me how little customers knew about how the business works.
I will let you all know when we have something, of course. Will hopefully be on our shiny "blog" site http://www.ski-buzz.co.uk
(if anyone can help me understand what a blog is, I would be very grateful!!)
Cheers
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Wayne wrote: |
The be all and end all of it is that I know that it cost me £XYZ to supply something, if I discount lower than this then ….. well lets just say it’s not a good idea.
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My feeling is that the big tour ops rarely discount below cost unless they have got the supply/demand equation really wrong.
They negotiate big savings by bulk purchasing power - I remember a property owner in Val Gardena recounting to me how he wasn't going to re-let his property for the next season because one of the big Brit TOs, who shall remain nameless, were trying to squeeze him once they thought they had him hooked.
So when they sell at or near brochure price they're making a good margin. At slack times they can afford to discount heavily (up to 50%?) and still cover costs, having made their profit on the peak weeks and early bookings.
At least that's how I suspect it works, perhaps someone with more knowledge can enlighten...........
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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(if anyone can help me understand what a blog is, I would be very grateful!!)
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Oh shut up. I'm absolutely certain you know exactly what a blog is - feigning idiocy isn't cute.
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How many people go into Tesco’s or ASDA thinking right let’s see what I can get a loaf of bread for. OK, I know there will be a few weirdoes who do try, but normal people don’t. Why? Simple it ain’t normal.
So this lead back to TO’s. A few of the larger TO’s have made a rod, not only for their own back, but also for all other TO’s, as it’s now seen as normal to be able to haggle. Why should this be the case? Simple answer, desperation. We have these huge big planes ya see, sitting on the runway and they cost a zillion quid to operate. If they ain’t full we still have to pay the bank loan on em. If we don’t fill the planes .....
Therefore, due to the desperation of the TO’s that own (or lease) a fleet of planes, the entire industry is now seen as fully haggleable. People “expect” to be able to call up and get a discount. But of course, this leads to over pricing in the first place so that discounts are able to be offered whilst still maintaining the margins. So the whole thing has gone to pot.
People ain't daft, and they know which companies increase the price to allow for a haggled discount.
Pah... that's what I say.
Some semblance of order is what is required here, like when I wuz a lad. I think I’ll order my sedan chair now.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
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(if anyone can help me understand what a blog is, I would be very grateful!!)
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Oh shut up. I'm absolutely certain you know exactly what a blog is - feigning idiocy isn't cute. |
Flattery will get you everywhere, Mr Lizzard
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wayne So why is it when I go into Curry's, PC World, any other high street store selling comparable goods and say "what is your best price" it inevitably results in me not paying the advertised ticket price? Because they reduce their margain to turn over stock. A sale at a lower margin is better than holding stock unsold.
When I go into the supermarket they have always reduced the price on stock with a short sell by date for exactly the same reason. As do TO who have a sell by date on their "stock" whether it is a flight or a bedspace (after all, you can't go on a holiday that was last week).
You hand back all of your unsold stock to your supplier so it becomes someone else's problem rather than yours. Nothing wrong with that it is just a different business model. The reason you have to do this before a certain date is, of course, so that the supplier can sell your unwanted stock to someone else before it expires. They may even do that at a price below that at which they offered it to you originally thus it is they who offer the discount rather than you.
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When I go into the supermarket they have always reduced the price on stock with a short sell by date
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I shall be eating beef tournedos this evening thanks to that very habit. Much more upmarket than the dinner we had planned, I have to say. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Boredsurfing, I have worked for Crystal, though I lasted about 30 seconds, which was just as well because they and I were never going to get on very well. No great loss to either party, I suspect!
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| Wayne wrote: |
How many people go into Tesco’s or ASDA thinking right let’s see what I can get a loaf of bread for. OK, I know there will be a few weirdoes who do try, but normal people don’t. Why? Simple it ain’t normal.
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First, those are commodities and low priced, and as such it is just not worth the time & effort involved to haggle, while things such as holidays, cars, houses, insurance, if you can get (say) a 5% discount for a few minutes haggling, it is well worth the effort. That will be 10s or even 100s of pounds, while the same percentage on a loaf of bread would be maybe 5-10p, and would probably take just as much effort, even if the supermarket were willing to haggle.
Second, as already pointed out, most (probably all) supermarkets DO have "reduced for quick sale" items which are close to their sell by date, without any haggling required.
Your model works well for you, but you are a relatively small business, and when buying in the quantities hat the largest TOs do, the same model just won't work.
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You know it makes sense.
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Just harking back to the original post. I noticed this morning that Mark Warner have discounted hols for New year week. Not something you see every season.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have just got a card through the post today to say that Thomas Cooke are givng a discount of £100 on ski holidays this season. It does not exclude the school holidays so would I be wrong to suspect there are still lots of ski holidays unsold this season?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| lynne123 wrote: |
| I have just got a card through the post today to say that Thomas Cooke are givng a discount of £100 on ski holidays this season. It does not exclude the school holidays so would I be wrong to suspect there are still lots of ski holidays unsold this season? |
Quite a lot of clues seem to be pointing that way, though £100 discount isn't a big deal and could just be a promotion of the type that come and go.
You'll have to wait 'til nearer the departure date to see some real discounting. How much Christmas/New year discounting and how early it starts gives an indication of the demand levels for the season.
I'm also keeping an eye on early/mid-December departures, seems like a lot of this is unsold, but you need to wait to see what snow conditions are like, so OK if you can pack your bags and go at the drop of the hat if the snow looks good. I think some operators won't cut too deeply to shift these, as it makes the Xmas/New Year prices look expensive, also gives the Chalet staff time to get up to speed if the place isn't full on the first weeks of the season.
Strangely, January doesn't seem particularly slack this year, these are normally the cheapest (reliable) weeks of the season in the brochures. Maybe people who are looking to cut back, but don't want to forego their ski holiday, have gone for these instead of more expensive weeks.
March may well be a good time to pick up a bargain with 4 whole weeks and no Easter hols interfering, how I love the Spring sunshine! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I am hoping that the tour operaters are not doing too well this year.
I started another thread (without looking at this one) about February half term. I am hoping that I can get a good deal as I did not know whether I was going to be able to afford it.
I know £100 discount is no big deal, but it may just be the start
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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KillerQueen, the thing is, if they can't sell Feb half-term, things are more dire than any of us would like to contemplate!!
Don't hold your breath on seeing more than a promotional discount at half-term.
If you can't justify a full cost holiday but are willing to wait and see if a bargain turns up and stay at home if it doesn't, no harm in trying! Just hope there aren't any disappointed kids involved! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| KillerQueen wrote: |
| I am hoping that the tour operaters are not doing too well this year. |
I hope for the opposite. There are enough companies and people doing poorly because of the world wide financial problems. The tour operators employ many people and it would be sad and bad if lots of them joined the unemployed. Many people use the tour operators to get a nice break away from the toil of their normal life and it would be sad if lots of them could not have their holiday.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If they're doing so badly that they can't sell half term then you won't be able to buy any holidays next year!
Our resort, because it's French and they tend to stick to school holidays, is incredibly quiet in the low season - there are loads of empty apartments, empty pistes  etc etc. But just about every bed in the entire place is already booked for the whole of the French 4 weeks. KillerQueen, if half term is too expensive (which it is....) look at the Easter holidays; far better deals available, less crowded, and if you go to the right place, great snow.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| Simon Cross, I think at least some of us would be interested, yes. |
I am interested. So yes.
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If there are unsold holidays for half term it is because the prices are too high. I'm not surprised if January is selling better as the prices are reasonable, holiday likely to be more enjoyable due to quieter pistes, and you are not yet fined £1000 for taking the kids out of school (our holiday would probably be £1000 more expensive for 4 in half term).
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snowymum, supply and demand!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The TOs are discounting nicely, I have had some very good prices indeed quoted to me for New Year week today. Plumped for one and booked it, not the cheapest but the best overall option for our group of 2 families. ADH here we come!
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| snowymum wrote: |
| you are not yet fined £1000 for taking the kids out of school |
It was not apre-election promise but..........lets hope they bring it in & I can have a child-free week skiing. 
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FAQ
