 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| Better I think to have longer term (if less frequent) coaching \ tuition with someone who knows what they are doing, than a lot of 'spot' lessons with random Instructors. |
Also exactly right  |
I think the odd "Spot" lesson with a different instructor can be beneficial too, if I can pick up just one thing from a session I'm more than happy. Everybody's toolbox is slightly different, it's good to explore what they've got inside.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, nice story but 2-6 hours of private lessons for 50 days a season is way out of most peoples budgets!
Speaking about off piste I see many people struggle from leaning back due to fear of falling, exacerbated by using skis that make things more difficult than they need to be. Put them on the right equipment, they gain confidence, start to enjoy it and the skiing improves as a result.
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Technique is more important than fitness, but you will probably learn quicker if you are fit.
You don't learn anything useful before you are warmed up, or once you are tired.
Skiing is a skill where you learn things by how they feel, so your body has to be working properly.
Quality instruction is important, things have improved massively in the last few years due to the competition between different ski schools.
A good instructor should be explaining what they are trying to change in your skiing, and what the purpose of any drills is.
The client will then be able to work on these things after the lesson. Often they won't realise the changes in their skiing until thay are free-skiing.
I am a big fan of half day lessons (preferably mornings) as they allow the client to play with what they have learned in the afternoon.
It also means they don't have too many new things to think about, and have a chance to practice & acquire their new skills.
Book yourself 4 morning lessons in the middle of your holiday if you want to make a big difference to your skiing.
Most of my clients are 35 to 60, strong intermediate to advanced, have skied a long time, but haven't had a lesson in years.
They all have the same faults & haven't progressed much for a while because they are up against a technical step.
They need someone to teach / explain / help them over that step so they can then continue to progress on their own.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I am a great believer in instruction, but do find myself sometimes being somewhat over reliant on the structured format of lessons and the comfort factor of group skiing, so think alan mcgregor has about the right mix , so you can practice what you have learnt the same day.
And also keep it simple, too much info is worse than none
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| BobinCH wrote: |
little tiger, nice story but 2-6 hours of private lessons for 50 days a season is way out of most peoples budgets!
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Indeed, and wouldn't seem to afford that much time for consolidation and deployment in freeskiing.
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| little tiger wrote: |
Summary - take lessons to learn. Don't bother if you don't care. |
We've done this ad naseum before but this is just a little insulting and patronising. You are probably the most lesson addicted person I've ever come across and I would never suggest it isn't the right thing for you goven the obvious achievement and enjoyment you get out of it.
I probably took about 6 lessons last winter plus one "freeskiing session" with an Olympic gold medallist. 1 lesson was utter rubbish (an instructor who was trying to hard to provide a relaxed learning environement for all participants) and I nearly just bunked off on it, but the other instructors who were all PSIA 3+ were great and I got different things from each of them. I did however take me 2-3 days of freeskiing after each lesson to consolidate any developments.
OTOH I also learnt heaps just watching other people from the chair, trying to keep up with my much younger house mate on cornice entries and chopped, bumped crud, skiing in very wet ligament-breaking slop on days when everyone else stayed home and riding out sluffs in a chinese downhill rope drop on a powder day.
YMMV
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fatbob,
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| I did however take me 2-3 days of freeskiing after each lesson to consolidate any developments. |
Very important point.
Spyderman,
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| I think the odd "Spot" lesson with a different instructor can be beneficial too, if I can pick up just one thing from a session I'm more than happy. Everybody's toolbox is slightly different, it's good to explore what they've got inside. |
I suspect it depends on where you are in your skiing development, and as you progress (and that's as much a progression in understanding as well as technique) then an exposure to different thinking is beneficial.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I know on here it is often said that lessons are the key to confidence, and apparently that is the case for most people. However, I don't think it was for me - I had been for 4 holidays had got about 8 hrs of private instruction under my belt and still stood at the top of a baby slope and quaked in my shoes. The key to my progress was to relax and get mileage on wide gentle slopes and the EoSB was the key. Once I realised that I could probably do this skiing stuff and indeed started to do it, I then started to get a lot out of lessons. Fitness and weight loss is still something I should work on prior to going away and is something I know will improve my skiing by improving whether I am fit enough to do it. I still undecided as to whether lessons indoors are worthwhile vs. lessons on the hill at the resort, but at the moment I think they probably count towards experience and it is good to go away on holiday having had a chance to at least try a bit of skiing in the interim. So this is why I am trying to fit in an indoor session prior to January.
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| Quote: |
I think the odd "Spot" lesson with a different instructor can be beneficial too
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Yeah, I had a lesson about 6 years ago - and I think I might have one this year, just to smooth off those rough edges.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
little tiger, nice story but 2-6 hours of private lessons for 50 days a season is way out of most peoples budgets!
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But most people are not disabled skiers with movement disorders! They don't need to spend over a year learning to flex an ankle(yes out of boots I had trouble flexing - the movement is not natural to me). Or years learning to balance reasonably competently. I spent one whole summer (9months) learning to walk along a 2x4 (about 8feet long). Prior to that summer I could not walk along a kerb edge. Now I can. Very hard to ski when you cannot balance on a surface 4inches wide.
BTW - budgets are a priority list in many cases. I know plenty of folks spend a lot more in the resort each week on booze alone than I spent in lessons each week.
I made choices - to stay in a YHA at $340 a week rather than a better accom at the same per night. To sleep on friends floors. To use much less trendy bushwalking gear I had rather than buy expensive name brand ski wear. To eat breakfast lunch and dinner at the YHA most days - yes made by me! To take a job that allowed me more ski time and located me much closer to the snow(cheaper transport and day trips available). Smoking a pack a day in Australia costs around $3500 a year to $7000 a year, that would pay for all my lessons, my season pass, and my accommodation most of those seasons. Might not quite include petrol costs.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
little tiger, nice story but 2-6 hours of private lessons for 50 days a season is way out of most peoples budgets!
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Indeed, and wouldn't seem to afford that much time for consolidation and deployment in freeskiing. |
Actually plenty.
1)Lessons do not have to be just about drills. That is more focused to the 'odd lesson a season' type of lesson taker.
2)1 hour warm up in morning (8:30-9:30). Focus on
3) Lesson for 2 hours - finish at 11:30 - Ski with a focus for 2-3 hours. (this can be - "go ski the powder we found hidden in the trees" - that is a focus as is "the snow under the rocks on X was 'interesting' go back and ski it more")
4)Lunch then ski again or stop.
That means with a 2 hour lesson and 2 hours skiing after I still skied for 3 hours working on my own.
You are interpreting how long it takes you to consolidate information on the 'give me a tip to fix X' model of lessons. I was learning and consolidating in lessons and free skiing all the time. Different model. Different results.
Even now with no formal lessons I learn and consolidate the same way - I'm always aware of what I'm doing even skiing off-piste on a powder day. The drills and technical focus I choose on other days is based on what I sense on those days and where I want my skiing to go. This is why I continue to make strides in my skiing despite being in the area where my disability really will start to set an upper limit very soon. I select a few focus areas and work on them - daily - until they are not needed as focus points. Then there is always a few more to replace the ones that are retiring. Awareness is the key.
I don't have a lesson to "improve in bumps" I have a lesson to "work on finessing edge engagement"
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little tiger, way to go 
that's the price you have to pay.
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You know it makes sense.
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david@mediacopy, thanks 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| admin wrote: |
| Contrary to yourself Chasseur, I've not really focussed on racing (although it's always great fun at the bashes), I've been more attracted to sliding down the metaphorical bannisters of off-piste. As a result, I'm comfortable on just about any [sensible] terrain now but still pretty rubbish through the gates. |
I'd hate to classify myself as race-focussed...just something else to enjoy/push oneself towards. I like the bannister metaphor - whether one is North, South, West or East born, one can only aspire to that off-piste experience - as indeed my last lesson was geared towards.....wasn't quite time to break out the champagne though 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, who was your rubbish lesson with? I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it! Did you ski with J M as the Olymic Medalist or was it someone else? I skied with a couple of people last season in that catagory.
FWIW I believe lessons usually help, rather than hinder, but then my experience is somewhat different to most! In just over a year I had 43 lessons of various lengths, totalling over 150 hours. I went from never-ever skied to confident on Blacks, and then I joined ski school. Over the following 4 seasons I averaged 6 hours of formal coaching a week, with perhaps up to 20 hours a week at times, skiing from early December to late April. Having taken and passed various exams cleanly, it was certainly worth it.
Last season I had no formal coaching, concentrating on working instead, and that also paid off, with my ranking in the school at an optimum level for my qualifications. So both having coaching and not having coaching has worked out. This coming season I may get back into serious training for my next exam, I'd like to because I enjoy the coaching but the time committment may be too much!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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There's no one right answer here.
Some people have a great ability to employ the "monkey see, monkey do" method of learning. They can watch others skiers descend the mountain, mimic what they see, and improve quite a bit without really knowing what they're actually doing. Generally, though, using this as a sole means of learning will inevitably leave holes in the person's skill set that impose a barrier to reaching their personal potential. Also, the person they choose to mimic may not be the best choice.
Others are able to self teach. They learn by reading books on technique, or using video learning programs such as my Building Blocks Instructional Series. This is the most cost effective way to improve, but for full effectiveness the learning program being employed has to be very comprehensive. Teaching materials consisting mainly of a handful of quick tips to greatness sound wonderful, so easy, but they're generally just selling snake oil. There are too many such products on the market. Buyer beware. How well this type of training program works also depends on a person's motivation to learn. Does he/she have the personal drive to go out on his/her own, on a regular basis, doing the drill work necessary to realize significant improvement? That's a key question. Some people need the group energy from which to draw their motivation. If left on their own they get lazy and waver. And even for those harboring strong internal motivation, the occasional eye of a pro can provide a good measure of their progress, and suggestions for areas needing more work.
Finally, there are those who structure their learning primarily within a class environment. Little Tiger in her early skiing years was a good example. This is a higher cost way to learn, but if the coach knows his/her stuff, it's a super way to reach ones personal potential. It's what racers do. I've worked with hundreds of students in that environment, all of which dedicated at least as many hours to honing their skills as Little Tiger did. It does pay off, for sure, but it requires a significant financial commitment, to accompany the massive time commitment. My students were with me 6 days a week, multiple hours a day, all season long. They emerged as world class skiers, but it's certainly not a road for the masses.
What it comes down to, is how good do you want to be, and how much are you willing to put into it? I created my Building Blocks DVD Instructional series to serve as a means for the average person to improve their skiing, to take it as far as they desire, on a schedule that's comfortable to them, and at an extremely reasonable price. It's an option for learning that appeals to many because of the flexibility it offers, and the skill building completeness it contains. Of course, it's not for everyone. That's what's great about this sport, there are so many options. How you approach it, what you're looking to take from it, how you define fun, and how you choose to learn.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
If left on their own they get lazy and waver.
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FastMan, I didn't know you were watching. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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FastMan, I do spend quite a lot of time in a comfortable armchair with a nice glass of wine, watching your DVDs. I can "visualise" the movements. After enough glasses of wine I can even visualise a one-footed 360. Provided I stay sat firmly in the chair....
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skinanny, Don't worry the crap lesson was with somone at Flatstar. JM was indeed the medallist - quite cool doing* West face laps with him even if the West Face locals were still giving him the "come back when you're good" attitude and pointing out the number of times they had to take down the name board
* I say doing - I mean watching him in the far distance as we , the rest of the group floundered our way down pausing frequently to wheeze and massage life back into our limbs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I daren't add up the number of hours of lessons I've had in the last year, in case anyone should jump to the conclusion - which would be totally erroneous - that I can ski well.
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fatbob, West Face needs to be my training ground this year......if I step up and make the commitment to actually training for L3 instead of just talking about it, sigh! Oh and 75 Chute, and all the various alternatives - they are just not my favourite places to ski!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| skinanny wrote: |
| fatbob, ......if I step up and make the commitment to actually training for L3 instead of just talking about it, sigh! |
Sounds a bit like me. I do the training but can't be doing with the courses.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I thought the original poster was asking about the relation of fitness to technique? Not about whether (or how much) lesson is optimal "for all"? Or I maybe wrong about that...
| Alexandra wrote: |
| I ski well and with good technique (over 50 days of GOOD lessons) - however excess weight and lack of fitness hinders my performance... but because of good technique it doesn't show! |
I think that's the best answer to it!
I've been relatively fit so far. But for years, I'd be out skiing with some out-of-shape mates and couldn't keep up, both in terms of terrain and in hours on skis. There's no question at all what's the issue: they've got better technique!
It wasn't until a few years ago when I started taking my lessons more seriously, namely multi-day lesson with the same instructor, that I began to realize my skiing was simply flawed in some fundamental way. I ended up wasting a lot of energy doing the wrong move! (e.g. side-slipping is very energy intensive, much less tiring to SKI it -- carve it)
I'm still not that great of a skier. I still don't ski the very gnarly terrain that I never did before. But when I do ski the relatively "difficult" terrain, which used to get me tired fast, I can ski it faster and more efficiently. As a result, I can ski that stuff all day, and come back day after day!
All that translate into more time I get to spend on snow each day without fatique. Therefore better enjoyment of the holiday. Considering how much I spend on a ski holiday, a good portion of it just getting there and back, and fed and house myself, the amount actually spend to "ski" is relatively small. So spend a bit extra on lessons would greatly enhance the holiday experience, making the bulk of the holiday expense worthwhile!
Now, the more time one spend on snow is also more time one gets to practice or "consolidate" whatever one's learned. That's just a side-effect.
Having said all that to justify lessons, one need to be reasonably fit to LEARN. Once you get the technique sorted, you can get away with being a porky as admitted by Alexandra. But you've got to be fit to get through the lesson first, if you get my drift...
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skinanny, 75 chute is one of my faves - narrow enough to not get too bump nasty and nicely sluffable so that you can still get good laps late in the day on a storm day. Plus the entrance seems to put casual skier off.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
riding out sluffs in a chinese downhill rope drop
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Huh? is there a TGR filter i can install to translate that
I think a short one to one is a great as a diagnosis tool and to give someone a set of things to work on, some people need reinforcement, some confidence boosting, others a sharp reality check or pushed into action, some like drills to practice, others "tips or thoughts" to bear in mind when on planks. Some people will actively work on things post lessons, others free ski and it sticks. etc etc....
I see more improvement in people during small group sessions when we work on specific areas of technique, changes to skiing must get embedded into muscle memory, i agree with Alan McGregor, views above
as far as technique vs fitness there is another component that hasnt come up and that is equipment set up and alignment. I personally find that set up is more important to me than my fitness levels.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, sluff = sluff
chinese downhill = mass start
rope drop = when patrol drop the rope
Simples grandad
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Poster: A snowHead
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fatbob, thanks Dude
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, Very good practice for not overthinking your turns or line, hesitate or fail to be assertive and almost certainly someone will ski over you or you'll get taken out by mild sluff. Great fun though.
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FAQ
no I know you weren't putting yourself up as a race-kiddie 
).