Does the "Intermediate Plateau" really exist?

A snowHead

You hear many people complaining their boots don't flex - particularly if they are skiing in something too stiff for their level.

A snowHead

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easiski should I be actively aware of my ankles flexing, or should it just be something that happens automatically if my stance and weight distribution is correct and I am carving my turns?

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I think that the Intermediate plateau definitely does exist - at least as far as the total skiing experience is concerned. IME most people get to "do a black" after the first or second week, and thereafter for a while it's a case of blasting the blues, cruising the reds and challenging yourself with the blacks. Hopefully you'll be doing them faster and more smoothly with time, but things fall apart big time when you venture off-piste, so you're essentially doing the same thing. Eventually though your skill level gets to the point where you CAN start making a decent fist of the off-piste, and a whole new area of the mountain opens up - and you get off that perceived plateau. I've recently made that transition and my skiing has suddenly taken off.

I was also not too convinced in the early days about the problem of spending the first half of your annual week getting back to the level of the previous year - I generally felt I was back there in about half a day. However I did feel I wasn't getting enough miles done at only one week a year, so stepped up to two or more about 5 years ago - and the difference in progress was huge (far more than just twice as fast). It may just be increasing years (now 45), or the fact the bar has been raising pretty fast recently, but I do now take longer to get back to where I was earlier - it takes a bit of time to get the reflexes and muscles working in harmony (and it also takes longer to get them fired up in the morning). Having said that though, perception does come into it as it does seem as if that "gentle warm-up blue" we're talking about on the first chair-lift transforms to a steep off-piste mogul run by the time we get on to the snow rolling eyes

!

As for the lessons thing, I did pretty much what easiski moaned about above - a couple of weeks fairly intense lessons, then 6-8 weeks of not much. In a lesson in about my 4th week at Les Arcs the ESF instructor sorted out a bit of a problem with my body position (that made a huge difference) then told me that I knew pretty much everything I needed (for that experience level), it's just my body hadn't learned how to do it yet; i.e. I knew the theory and it was just a matter of miles uner the boot required to get it into my reflexes. As a contrast, the girl I was sharing the lesson with was skilful and coordinated enough to do pretty much everything the instructor wanted - but was too timid to push herself into doing it (and would forever remain an intermediate until she gave it that push). In my case two breakthroughs happened: in about week 6 (stiff body suddenly started flexing in response to more advanced demands from the terrain) and week 13 (body suddenly got independent upper and lower body movements and ankle, knee and hips actually started working together naturally). Just after that 6-week breakthough I decided I needed to make a better job of moguls and steeps so I had a bunch of lessons at Breckenridge at about week 7, but they were pretty much useless (in one case teaching completely misguided techniques IMHO Wink

and another just a pretty incompetently delivered "follow me" type) and taught me virtually nothing. Subsequent to week 13 lessons have been making a fairly substantial difference - but of course things still fall apart when the skill envelope gets pushed too hard. I've always had no trouble in picking up what it is I'm supposed to do, but getting my body to execute it has been a tougher job. So in summary, I think there is no substitute for miles under boots, and use lessons to make sure a) you're not getting into too bad habits and b) help you push that envelope WHEN YOUR BODY IS READY FOR IT. As you get more advanced, I also suspect that while the improvements to technique may be smaller, they make more of a difference to your overall performance. So would that mean that lessons/coaching become MORE important than on the intermediate plateau? FWIW - while I'm sure I have plenty of faults that could be corrected, I have been told I'm a pretty good skier for my experience level (120 days).

beanie1Agree about the undone boots thing - concentrates the mind. And another variation I discovered this year....one of my touring bindings switched itself into uphill mode (free heel) part way down a mogul run which made the bottom part a bit more interesting - and was actually the bit I skied best (but not necessarily something I'd recommend Shocked

)

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Kramer,

I think ankle flex is something you do have to think about and work on - some people, even advanced skiers, have very little. A girl in my trainee instructor group had this problem, and to work on it the trainer made us all do an exercise where we skied with our ankles locked forward in the flex position, but we weren't allowed to move them at all whilst we skied. This is pretty tricky and makes you realise how improtant ankle flex is - we had to change other body movements in order to turn.

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beanie1, but might I be doing it without being aware that I'm doing it?

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I recently did a Women only course in Whistler. One exercise to improve our flex was to put both hands on your downhill knee.

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Kramer,

Yes, most likely. When I'm free skiing I spend quite a lot of time thinking about one particular movement, just becoming aware of it and how I'm performing in that area. Ankle flex is a good one for that, it's probably something you rarely think about outside of lessons.

Kramer, Yes, you should be aware, but not thinking about it all the time. For instance, sometimes I do a turn that isn't going very well and then realise I haven't flexed enough - do it and the end of the turn comes back to you. It does depend on how well you flex to start with - with your experience you probably do it automaticlally anyway.

GrahamN, things fall apart off piste through faulty technique - no other reason!

Helen Beaumont, That's a good exercise, but it's possible to do it by lowering the shoulders almost as much as by flexing. Also It's possible to flex the knee and sit back while doing it. It's definitely useful (I did it this morning with my girlies), but not a self-help exercise.

Martin H, I did my Grade 3 and my Grade 2 in the 70's and we definitely flexed in the plastic boots. In leather boots everyone tended to over-flex anyway (didn't matter in those days - look at the difference in speed and turn shape), however when the plastic boot came out it was a lot harder. We had to move out whole body forward to get sufficient weight over the toe. Having said that we managed it, and if you look at archive film of top racers you'll see that they were flexing.

The Salomon SX90 Equipe was too stiff, and most people couldn't flex it. Many cut through the plastic joining the bands across the front to get more flex. That was just a very bad boot though. All the other models flexed more than enough. Most people say they can't flex, but they just aren't trying hard enough!! Sorry to disolusion you. Sad

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easiski, I think that you overestimate my experience and ability. Next season I'll have to arrange a private lesson with you.

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You know it makes sense.

GrahamN, fair point I think.

But it's not a "plateau", just a slowing of the learning "economy" curve and certainly not an excuse for not doing better!

Although you bring out another point (of view?) - Does good (proper) technique make life so much easier?

I believe it does. If you ski bumps "properly" you need so much less muscle control, balance and reflexes that it becomes immensely easier. But you need to be taught that technique. You almost certainly can't learn that by watching and imitating. Well, I couldn't anyway!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Kids ski on short skis which don't run so well. And we all know if you want to go faster, sit back and unweight the fronts. So maybe that's why they lean back?

A snowHead

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kuwait_ian, Kids lean back because they aren't strong enough to stand up !

and,

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ski,

Agree. Sometimes I think professional skiers forget this as they are so used to being utterly immersed in their sport, and forget that others may just want to enjoy it and not be constantly striving to improve.

Saying that though I am all in favour of lessons, even if it's just an hour of your holiday.

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GrahamN, a very interesting analogy.

I am a big fan of the idea of "muscle learning" (whether it's the muscles or not that actually do the learning I don't really care...). I guess what I'm referring to is much along the same lines.

I was taught a specific technique in bumps. I can do it fluently (after much practice). Two interesting things I find are...

1. that when I teach on to friends, they are amazed at how much easier it makes everything - although it takes practise to do at speed and high frequency

and

2. after a lot of days on snow this year, I noticed a small but quantum difference in my own bumps technique. I seem to have incorporated a small but automatic check into my turn, which is making a big difference to speed control. Previously I had to make a conscious effort to do this. I don't think anyone would notice me doing this, but I can feel it. I think it's simply a function of repetition.

So, leading on again, I think I have had summers where I have improved during the summer - maybe because I spend a lot of time thinking about it, envisioning it and watching ski films.

Can this be true? I think so.

An article referred to elsewhere on "mirror neurons" suggested training injured athletes by showing them videos of people doing their sport as the brain fired in similar ways both while practising and while watching the same activity on screen.

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ski, I don't agree about kids. It's not necessary for kids to lean back at all, and many of the little ones I've taught don't. Why? Because I insist that little beginners have skis no more than chest height (no, not shoulder, chest)! I find that they then learn a) much quicker and b) don't have the same tendency to lean back. I've come to the opinion that they largely do this in order to try to control the front of too long skis when ploughing. Also I almost never tell children how to turn (a bit harder on plastic for sure) as once they can plough they just decide where to go and automatically go there - really! If you tell them they'll go where they look they just do it - no sweat!!!

Regarding holiday skiers - of course they are there to enjoy themselves; but no-one has the right to enjoy themselves at the expense of everyone else. Most of the poor (I don't need lessons) skiers actively put the rest of us at risk for the entirety of their holiday. Just this week I've heard of 3 incidents when out of control skiers have knocked over children, and that's only people I know in a quiet week. BTW none of them stopped!

GrahamN, Interesting analagy. However, as every movement we make while ski-ing is a movement that we already make every day of our lives (except snowplough), I'm not sure about it's validity. It does seem to me that many people (including loads of instructors) try to make learning to ski seem much harder than it really needs to be. Our bodies can already ski really well - our subconcious minds just get in the way. If we can allow out bodies to do it naturally we can do it all. Unfortunately we do often need help to do this, but it shouldn't be difficult in terms of muscle movements etc.

MartinH, Depends what you mean by vertical - we need to be perpendicular to the ground we're currently standing on (whether a slope or your sitting room floor) to remain in balance - vertical to the world in general isn't it. When people understand this they are generally able to stay perpendicular as required. Smile

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This 'kid' thing is interesting.My 8yr old daughter,having initially 'learnt' at Tamworth(and I wouldn't say that the 'kiddy' lessons amounted to much)has only ever had one other lesson;with easiski.Of her own free will,by mimicking whatever?she is parallel 75% of the time;does any red we choose to go down(and thinks nothing of it)loves the bumps,and even ventured into the powder a couple of weeks ago.And has also developed a powerful turn stop.She now falls less often than me rolling eyes

On our recent trip to Les Arcs,she skied from the top of the Aiguille at 3200,down to the Navette at 1800,almost without a stop(yes,we were chasing the last chair........and missed it!)Believe me,that is a long ski.She loved every minute of it.As easiski rightly states,kids just do it,no sweat Cool

And dad is very proud of her.

She enjoys the type of skiing we all chase.No intellectual baggage,no over analysis,she just see's a giant white playground,and goes for it.
What sometimes saddens me is witnessing adults place 'their' fears and inhibitions on their children.Most kids are well able to sort it for themselves IMHO.

And yes Charlotte,Livvy still remembers the 'chips';and you Laughing

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easiski, Good points...as it's now the summer I'll have planty of children to teach (school groups)....I have been using shorter skis, I'll see how I get on with you're advice.

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easiski,

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ski, & MartinH, Cool

I think the intermediate plateau exists.

In my case it was the transition between following my skis round the turn and learning to push my feet out to the side that took a while to get the hang of...just when I thought I'd got it, it was either trecherously icy or too powdery so it took a while to get the hang of it! rolling eyes

You know it makes sense.

The intermediate plateau definitely exists IMO. It is where a skier gets competant on red and blues and can get a lot of mileage ( literally ) from their holiday.
However, they struggle on anything tricky or technical. This is because they have hit a comfort zone where they can surely get around the mountain but have got lazy and can or will not push themselves anymore. This does not mean this is bad as the skier might be quite happy here. It only becomes an issue if the skier wants to push on and for that there will be some hard work involved.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I agree with JT. The plateau certainly exists. The reason being, ironically, that it is too easy to ski with poor technique (leaning in, over-rotating with shoulders) and "get away with it" on flatter groomed slopes. And the longer people continue to do that, the "worse" they're becoming, because the incorrect movements become more and more hardwired into the muscle memory.

This is what JT calls "the comfort zone". It feels comfortable to make these movements because they tie in with your (non-skiing) instincts, which tell you to lean in like you're riding a bike, use the shoulders to "help" the skis around the turn, and lean towards the hill (and away from the yawning abyss) when on a steeper slope. But good ski technique is "counter-intuitive". Learning it requires overcoming these instincts and creating new instincts.

So you could argue that the longer you remain on the intermediate plateau, the harder it becomes to escape from it. But escape it you must, if you want to master carved turns, bumps, off-piste or steeps.

But it's also a strength of skiing, as a sport, that people can enjoy themselves for years on those blue and red runs without ever needing to make that next breakthrough.

A snowHead

Martin Bell,

Off topic, but what's the skiing like in Taos?

A snowHead

Martin Bell, Well said. However, although I hesitate to disagree with you I don't actually think the movements made in ski-ing are necessarily "counter-intuitive". I have experimented many times in trainers running down hills, making various "turns" being more or less aggressive etc. and it seems to me that in all these there is a direct correllation to ski-ing. I think that the sub-concious "flight or fight" response just gives us bum information.

I absolutely agree that people can spend years at the same level quite happily and may never wish to progress - I know one woman who's spent 4 weeks on the first nursery slope here! OK she doesn't ski much every day, but if she enjoys a couple of turns on the (free) lift and then a nice coffee in the sun with her book, I don't see any problem, personally. Very Happy

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

easiski, you're right that when people change direction quickly, there is a beneficial (for skiing) instinct there to "drop the hip" to the inside and keep the shoulders level. You see this with athletes - good examples here: http://www.northernfc.co.uk/rugby_player.gif
http://www.western.edu/alum/images/football/fball_player.gif
You're quite right; the damaging "lean into the hill" instinct on steep slopes is mainly caused by sub-conscious fear - which is fine! A little bit of fear keeps us from doing really stupid things on skis!

beanie1, the majority of the skiing at Taos is steep. You can view some video clips here: http://www.skitaos.org/MOUNTAIN/web_cam.php

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Martin Bell, Taos looks nice! snowHead

Good shots of the players. My sometime boss at the Uni of Bath (David Kerwin, Prof of Biomechanics) finshed a study and paper last year about David Beckham's curly kicks. I can't tell you about the tech stuff as I don't understand it properly (all algebra) but the photos were remarkably like ski-ing movements, except that he was always standing on his inside foot of course!

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I hate rear entry boots - they are always far too lose on the bottom of my foot and killing-ly tight on the top. Unfortunately they always give me these - better ask for some decent ones next time!
I got stuck on a plateau of not being able to go parallel. But I've done that now! (And I can get the number l's in parallel in the right place too! Laughing

)
Julia

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Rear entry boots, hmmm. What WERE they thinking when they came up with those?

beanie1,

Something along the lines of what extreme skier Dominique Perret's company "Thema Engineering" are thinking in designing their concept hybrid 4 buckle rear entry performance boot. Dig into http://www.skier.ch for details. Haven't seen any in production though...

IMHO for a lot of people a well fitting rear entry boot would be more than performant enough and considerably more comfortable than the 4 buckle equivalent, just not nearly fashionable enough.

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crazy_skier_jules, good fitting rear entry boots are fine, I've still got an old pair of Reichle (sp?) boots that I use at the dry ski slope, so much better than the worn out boots they tend to use

Help!!

Does the "Intermediate Plateau" really exist?

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