BASI and Snowsport Scotland Announce Partnership

A snowHead

rob@rar, I can't see the BASI "modules" working, unless you are going to run them indoors, nobody will want to go somewhere for just a couple of days. If BASI could pack several things into a week then it might also bridge the gap between L2 and L3.

A snowHead

GrahamN, Pete is exempt from it, did his ISTD tech this spring.

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rob@rar, yes I think it might do, but not a lot. I wouldn't feel confident to go and start setting courses after a day's course.

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rob@rar, ha ha! Very Happy

I can just about manage that now, doen enough of them! Don't like setting proper courses though, always do it with guidance.

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Interesting debate!

After all it is free

roga, very good points.

For me as an outsider it is a matter of presentation - in such a niche area - (how many practising UK based ski instructors are there?) there should be one credible robust UK organisation. Otherwise it becomes a matter of "which heavyweight champion did you say you were?"

But I do see that for any one with genuine European teaching aspirations - BASI would be the way to go...

Do you think the people from SSE ever look at BZK threads?

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stoatsbrother, The point of the Modernisation proposals that started all this off was to end up with one "brand" that everyone could use. While the Home Nations were arguing about the details BASI filled out the gaps in their programme and we ended up with the situation we have now.

Email Tim Fawke if you have something to say to SSE.

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rjs, bit hostile?

I think many of us remember the threads about modernisation a few years ago.

I suspect that most ordinary UK skiers would have difficulty seeing the point in different programmes done by different bits of the UK. Having "home nations" applied to a non-alpine country seems stupid - and would only risk small bodies protecting their own organisational interests. But obviously - as a potential customer - I am wrong. rolling eyes

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stoatsbrother, Wasn't intending to be hostile to anyone, what you were asking for was the intent of modernisation, I just wanted to make the point that when Fiona was doing the consultation meetings she focused more on the "branding" advantages than on the details of the instructing and coaching courses.

The plan would have done away with identifiable home nations and would have had one national training system.

rjs, as an outsider at the time I could never work out who was most responsible for the modernization process failing. If you can ignore the history and politics it's hard to see how you would end up with the current system if you stated with a blank sheet of paper.

You know it makes sense.

rob@rar, You wouldn't end up with the current system if starting from scratch. I don't think you can ignore the history though if you want to find a way forward, it at least tells you what can go wrong.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

roga, agree with a lot of that - making allowances for your usual chauvinistic chippiness Wink

stoatsbrother, bit hostile?

The two organisations have very different remits - the clue's in the names - with a bit of overlap at the point you see them on here. SSE is concerned with snowSPORTS in England, and for that read competitive snow sports (whether that is alpine racing, freestyle, cross-country whatever) - and its primary role is as the governing body of those sports. As such it has a huge presence in the various clubs throughout the country, and runs the extensive racing program here in the summer and national races in the alps in the winter (to mention only the brances I know anything about). It also now, in conjunction with SSS and SSW, runs the British competition ski teams. It is not primarily concerned with recreational/hobby skiing. BASI is concerned with ski instruction - so has more relevance to recreational skiers, and their development. The overlap occurs due to that presence in UK based clubs - so a lot of artificial/indoor instructors/coaches will find SSE more relevant. If I lived in Wales, I could probably say exactly the same about SSW - from my limited interaction with them (at the race level) the two organisations work hand-in-hand, Welsh and English races having very similar catchment areas. The failure of that Modernisation process has just increased that overlap, but probably reduced the level of "confusion" for recreational skier, as BASI has now increased its presence in UK based instruction - quite reasonably as this constitutes the first rungs on the instruction ladder, and gives them a catchment from those making those first tentative steps on those rungs.

From my own perspective, I interact with SSE much more as a dryslope "performer". As an early stage race coach, I've started on the BASI route, as they are clearly better organised/motivated/resourced in that area. The focus, however, is very much on applications on snow, whereas my interest in more home/all-year and hence dry-slope focussed. So it may well be that SSE would actually be a better choice there, as this is where their activity predominantly lies. The reason I started on the BASI route though was, ironically, that the Instructors organisation didn't require an instructor qualification before starting coaching training (just targeting those with experience of the race scene), whereas the race-oriented organisation did (only accepting familiarity with the race scene once you're a pretty high level performer).

You as a recreational mountain skier really should only need to be concerned with BASI. I think SSE really only has relevance to potential instructors if they are never intending to teach in the mountains, and if they have an interest in developing competitive performers. With the L1 and UKSI they provide everything for recreation instruction that SSE do. I find no "confusion" at all between the two organisations, as they have such radically different focus. To jump ship and head off to an organisation that has little/no presence close to home because of organisational infighting is rather cutting your nose off to spite your face - you're letting your cynicism overrule rationality (OK you ski a lot in North America, but is your son intending to emigrate to Canada?). The only difficulty for me is trying to forecast how my own interests will develop.

A snowHead

GrahamN, do you think the duplication of administration, with regard to both teaching and coaching strands, is a concern from a financial viewpooint, given the parlous state of funding for UK skiing.

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rob@rar, Snowsport GB are the ones in debt, I think the other groups match their expenditure to income.

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rob@rar, I guess it's not ideal, but I have no idea how much of that administration cost would be removed if there were a single organisation. I suspect the main benefit would ba that there would be a unified constituency for training courses - so maybe get higher demand for specific training courses. BASI seems to have a reasonable level of demand at present (remains to be see whether this is more than just attraction of novelty but it's looking good at present), but from past comments from rjs SSE does seem to have problems.

There does seem to be a problem with funding racing on snow at development teram level. But that's not an area that there's any overlap at present - I don't see BASI has any involvement there at all. The costs involved for the individaul racers are substantial - I doubt that saving a couple of administrators' salaries is going to make much difference. Whether or not there is too much fat in the organisation is a different question, and not one on which I can really contribute (although I have met a couple of men recently who could). The hand over of the alpine teams from SSGB to the HNGBs is probably addressing that. SSGB/HNGBs is where the real duplication of effort seems to be, rather than BASI/HNGBs.

The problem with the clean sheet solution is that it would chuck the baby out with the bathwater. BASI really seem to have their act together and from what little I see are doing a good job and seem to have a good reputation with other instructors' organisations, and they seem to have a good and highly motivated set of trainers at present. Chuck it all out and you have to rebuild from scratch. While that may result in a better long-term solution, and flush out the bad stuff, I can see that taking 10 years to fully reinstate the good stuff that is there now. I would have thought that for you as skimottaret the choice is clear - the one you've made. The only issue I see remaining is for those of you (amybe some point in the future "us") in a part-time or semi-professional position is the IVSI "club coach" issue. If BASI were to increase their IVSI "presence" to full-membership then that would solve that. I guess that would be another nail in SSE's coffin though, so they may not be amenable to anything like shared representation.

PS: three of the adults in our club probably think that racing at grass-roots level is far too successful, each having been hammered in head-to-heads over the last couple of years by a 7yo little bullet (normally in shocking pink) from Bromley!

PPS: when it comes to renewal time though, I do wonder what I get for my £45 (or whatever it is) to SSE, other than the opportunity to spend even more on race entry fees!

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GrahamN, of course you must be right - 4 organisations must be better than one... rolling eyes

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stoatsbrother, since we're now talking about 5 organisations, which is the one you are happy with? rolling eyes

After all it is free

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GrahamN, whichever one grows up enough to stop squabbling over the comb. We are a small country, not very successful in snowsports, with limited snow and funding. Two organizations working closely would be plenty.

But those of us on the outside obviously have no valid view.

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And remember, this thread is about two organisations co-operating in the area in which there is overlap (low level coaching/instruction) within their specific territory, then leaving each to run the areas in which they have specific competence (SSS=competitive sports, BASI=higher level instruction). Sounds a good arrangement to me.

Also, the biggest threat to grass-roots competition I see is the conversion of dryslopes to those abortions that are Snowflex and Permasnow - so we have fewer places to race. I guess I may have a different view though if I were a freestyler. Also snowdomes are great, but they do pretty much double the cost of regular training.

And the biggest fillip to grass-roots competition is motivational leadership and efficient organisation, with active involvement of the clubs and kids' parents, leading to smoothly run competitions with keen friendly rivalry which all ends end up being huge fun for the competitors - as evidenced in every Southern Region race for the last two years (after emerging from a few years of internal politics that nearly killed it).

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rob@rar, fair questions. But I see this as a good first step. If it succeeds then I guess they'll start looking at the next one. Softly softly catchee monkee. I didn't really have any insight into the Modernisation process, but looking at it as an outsider/neutral at the time, it looks like it was trying to do too much too soon, and so offended everyone somewhere along the road. The usual problem with revolutionary rather than evolutionary change.

There will always be (quasi) nationalistic squabbling as long budgets and jobs (and impressive titles) are in the offing.

I agree that is simply daft to have a different body looking after snow sports in England and Scotland, not sure if there are also corresponding bodies in NI and Wales?

Each year I go to the World Travel Market which is easily the largest trade-only travel show in the world. Almost every country on earth from the little ones like Bhutan and Nepal to the big ones like USA and China are there. Each country has a stand, some of which, mainly the Arab ones, are “very” impressive. So you will have an Italian stand, a Spanish stand, Mexico, Peru, Egypt, Tanzania, etc, etc. Oh I say each country has a stand – except one – “we” don’t. We have 4, all next to each other but “very” obviously different, visit England, Visit Scotland, Visit Wales and Visit Northern Ireland. Each UK stand has a duplication of personnel – so lots of jobs at the public expense.

How pathetic is that and makes it so obvious to every other country just what goes on in the good old UK. I think the same can be said for the various “governing” bodies of snow sports.

At least BASI is a truly (inclusive) British association which in my view is a good thing.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

beanie1, how about a BASI ISIA "I Ski In Aviemore"

A snowHead

skimottaret, beanie1,

Yeah I know, there is "still" a little hang over from the old British Association of Professional Ski Instructors. Like why is the office "up there" when most member are from "down here". But, all in all, I still think it's a good group with a very professional outlook. Just my opinion. Any group of people are going to have detractors and things can always be diss'ed. but (just IMO) seems OK to me

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Wayne,

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BASI and Snowsport Scotland Announce Partnership

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