Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

A snowHead

I don't think the article in the BASI news is too clear. I understand what it means is that if you pass the ISIA test, and you've done the other parts of the L4 then you get the ISIA card. You still need to pass the Eurotest to get your L4 ISTD (and hence be able to work in France etc).

A snowHead

beanie1, Be able to work in France independently I think you mean! rolling eyes

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

easiski, yes of course, thanks for the clarification.

Not really sure what the benefit of the ISIA card is?

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IIRC can't work in France at all even if you have completed all parts of L4 other than ET unless you also have test technique ie ET will entitle you to work in France only if you've also already completed all other parts of L4.

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beanie1, not clear is it. i was mistaken stating that either pass would count towards ISTD... I had a second read and it definitely said it was run as both an ISIA and ET. i can only guess that they had two sets of openers ??

doesnt seem clear if you pass all your L4 stuff and then the ISIA test will that get you an ISTD or if the Card is an ISTD "light" and as stewart woodward, says it probably isnt recognised within the Eurogroup...

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skimottaret,

Yes I guess they must have had two sets of openers.

No a pass in the ISIA test doesn’t get you an ISTD. If you have the other parts of the L4 you need for the ISIA card(which I think but am not certain is not all of them – I think it may just be the EMS, though never seen that in print anywhere) you’d be a BASI L3 with an ISIA card. I’ll try and find out if you need all of it.

After all it is free

beanie1, not too bothered but it would be academically interesting to see if just the EMS and ISIA test pass would get you a card.. could be useful in teaching in southern hemisphere / japan perhaps... was more interested to see that BASI are actively supporting the ISIA test.

beanie1, There are only 5 British skiers who are that close to 50 points, at least for the Eurotest you have the option of using more people as openers.

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rjs, do you know how many Eurotest openers GB has. i wouldnt have thought more than one or two? the ISIA test you have to have current FIS points 45 to 55 and that would limit the pool pretty dramatically. I am sure you are correct but am surprised to hear only 5 fall in that bracket.

The ISIA test rules dont stipulate that the points have to be in GS, would that still limit the skiers to 5?

EDIT: I see where rjs is going with this in that to be a ET opener you have to get calibrated at the beginning of the season, but there is no points stipulation so as rjs alludes to BASI could send any number of people to be official openers and get them calibrated each year irrespective if they are still actively racing.

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I was wrong above, you do need the rest of the L4:

If you passed all L4 courses including the EMS, tech and teach, have not passed the Eurotest, but passed the ISIA test, you would be entitled to the ISIA card but not your BASI L4. However, the ISIA card is not recognized by Austria, France or Italy, so the holder would not be granted exemption to work in these countries currently.

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GrahamN, The symbols can also mean that they are injured, I only counted the ones with no loading.

Unless the Eurotest openers have current FIS points too then it is hard to compare the two systems.

You know it makes sense.

GrahamN, your maths are right but the ET GS isnt a combined time of your two runs, you only get one go at each course. they set two courses per day. The pass time is calculated from the fastest openers average of two runs on each course (post adjustment for their coefficient) (there can be more than one opener, 2 and sometimes four openers who get two runs each on a fresh course) . the key difference is you are competing against the fastest time of potentially four openers and start number is crucial. also a lot depends on the openers coefficient. If they had a bad day when calibrated at the beginning of the season they will be almost impossible to beat.

I was told by one opener that he was calibrated whilst nursing an injury and months later when opening an ET (when fit) was told to slow down his second run as no one would have passed....

If your bib 79 you stand no chance but they reverse start order for second race.... I think the 2 seconds difference is more typical rather than mathematical and is due to the averaging effect.

then again what do i know, stewart woodward, would be better placed to comment.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

slikedges, that's not true. You can work in France with a log book, you're classed as a stagiare that's all. However I can't see any difference in being paid less in Austria or Switzerland and being paid less in France! Just that in France they say you're not qualified which is a bit galling.

Listen guys - there are loads of brits working in France - get out of your fridges and go see! rolling eyes

A snowHead

easiski, without Test Technique? Point I'm trying to make is it's my understanding that if you don't have your full ISTD (incld ET) you can't teach in France at all, unless you have the TT (in which case you can then work as a stagiere). Even if you have your ET but haven't completely finished other parts of ISTD you can't teach in France at all without your TT. I'm sure this is explicitly stated on the BASI website but feel free to correct me if I have it wrong. Difference then is that any lowly BASI L2 can get a job with any Austrian ski school who chooses to employ them without any further ado whilst in France you have to pass TT then register as a trainee in the French system at an approved Centre de Formation ski school=ESF. In Switzerland a BASI L2 qualification can get you employed but now you additionally have to show a minimum of ?7 ?14 days "qualifying" training a year as well.

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slikedges, I know a guy working as a stagiare in France who's not (yet )passed his TT (to put it in perspective he's an ex racer who has an exemption from the Eurotest - for his BASI exams, the French don't give exemtions). He does however know all the right people, I don't think his job was easy to get.

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slikedges, We are talking about the French here! Rules are not so slavishly followed as in the UK.

However there are Centre de Formations who are ESIs, not ESFs and both will take you on. You would have to train and pass the TT of course, but that really shouldn't be a problem for any ISIA aspiring skier. If you are with a school they can get round it - the inspectors only come out during the school hols! There's a russian girl in LDA who's a pretty crap skier TBH, but she's been working for the ESF for at least 2 years. They need the language skills.

You should not forget that TT is the French entry level. they can't even take a course until they've passed it, and TBH it doesn't look that hard from the ones I've seen. I have worked in Switzerland as a Grade 3 (level 2), and I can tell you that I didn't work much and I was paid about half what the swiss were, regardless of their quals. rolling eyes

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I have witnessed several skiers who already hold their ISIA tech who have failed the test technique more than once (and still not passed, just going for L4 and ET now). Without racing background training has to be very specific and focused to get to a pass. A GS type turn is not dissimilar to what you would produce free-skiing, this is not the case with a slalom turn, you also wouldnt be skiing around making the kind of movements required to ski verticalis fast.

Yes GS is still hard but you can get the base skills down a lot faster and begin to work on line choice tactics etc far earlier than with any SL training. Also the aspect of cross blocking gates is a big shock for a first time racer. There is a lot going on in SL and it is fairly far removed from general out of gate skiing.(its all still fresh in my mind from last June when I started and its a very steep learning curve!)

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As I said above I know a guy who's exempt from the speed test but failed the TT at his first attempt - so it can't be that easy?! I think GS and super G were his stronger disciplines, but even so he spent many years race training as a child.

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R555MAC, well said, spot on

After all it is free

R555MAC, Absolutely, which was why the ET was made as a GS and not the SL that the French used to have as the Teste de Capacité. However there are race clubs all over the Uk at dry slopes and snowdomes and regular races, all of which are SLs, so there is much more opportunity for junior brit instructors to train in SL than in GS when they would deffo need to be on the mountain.

No-one is suggesting that you don't have to work hard to get to these levels, but then you don't get a degree if you've skipped all your lectures and haven't read any of the books do you?

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beequin, for the first couple of sessions maybe, but decent skiers on modern slalom skis skiing the more offset slalom courses should get to a level very quickly (four or five sessions) whereby the 'cross-block' is the natural and most effective way of clearing most open gates. I agree though that a cross block should be a consequence of the line skied and not an aim in itself.

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Sideshow_Bob, Well said - I often see brit kids who are trying really hard to cross-block with inevitable rotation and loss of edge and line. They all claim to have been taught this by their dry slope/snowdome trainers. rolling eyes

As you say, it should be a natural action and not a deliberate move. Clear the gate with whichever hand/arm is natural.

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easiski, very good point, it is far more accessible. Dryslope technique does tend to differ slightly, but still good training none the less. The snowdomes are fantastic for training. Conditions are a bit controlled and predictable but the technique is still achievable obv.

Fair point on the cross block, but as said above for a competent skier you should have it pretty quick, maybe you wont be at the point where it is completely autonomous but after maybe 3 runs or even less anything other than a cross block would require the body to be rotated or in an awkward position. The cross block may have still been slightly awkward but the alternative would have been equally ineffective IMO. Obv this all differs with each skier, children trying to cross block is something you see a lot and they often just dont have the lateral movement to make this efficient and therefore need to turn the upper body, but at a very young age they shouldn't really spend much time in full size gates anyways, more stubbies/brushes and freeski fun/drills.

All of which brings us back to the point that officially at least you can't teach in France unless you have passed a timed slalom set at a moderately challenging level or you're fully qualified to the Euro Group's satisfaction. What I'd actually be interested in is just how many Brits there are working in France as stagiaires without TT. Anyone any idea?

stewart woodward did you need to do TT?

You know it makes sense.

slikedges, I expect that not many now if any at all. If you had been working with the ISIA and therefore Stagiere status pre TT you would hold it for 4 years. To refresh your status you would now need to update with a TT. The TT has been present for near over 3 years now I think (not 100% on this). My point is that if those stagieres wanted to reapply for their status then they would have to add the TT to gain it, or may not be given an extension as an option at all.

So I think, certainly if TT has been present for 4 season then there (theoretically) couldnt possibly be anybody working as a Stagiere without a TT. If it hasnt been present for 4 years yet than there could still be a few who do not yet need it, but as soon as the 4 year mark arrives from the intro of the TT I dont think anybody could be a Stagiere without it.

Hopefully someone can confirm this (or not for that matter)

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

slikedges, apparently more than you think are working as stagiares before passing the TT - not officially allowed I believe but apparently it's done, it's all about who you know. I know one Brit in this position, he is the only British stagiare (still not passed the TT) in his ski school and as a native English speaker gets loads of work. He had connections to get the job however.

A snowHead

R555MAC, the way in the front is clear, it's the side entrance I want to know more about Laughing

beanie1, intriguing - I'll see if I can tap some sources

A snowHead

skimottaret, do you know how many Eurotest openers GB has?

There are currently four of us calibrated to open the Euro Test from GB. Alain Baxter, Jas Bruce, James Bennett and myself Craig Robinson.

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skimottaret, Dave Renouf commented on the age issue below:

"With regard to the ageist question this is something that we put to the EU commission a few years back and the reply was that for education there is no concession as the standards for a teacher of any sort should be the same whatever the age, despite there being a difference for gender. However on that point their opinion is that taking into account the difference in strength from male to female is within the understanding that the end result of capacity to teach is no different."

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Gender is just one of many possible determinants of strength and fitness. There are lots of women who are stronger than the average man, nevertheless the distinction between the sexes in the Eurotest is a reasonable fudge to account for the usual situation. Age is just as powerful a determinant and the introduction of a handicap for age would be a similarly reasonable fudge to account for the differences between younger and older performers. Equally great a determinant is physical size, so say 4 height/weight categories would give a more accurate still reflection of skill level. The downside would then be needing some kind of composite index to work out who's passed!

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slikedges,

If age makes no difference why do we have masters races Puzzled

After all it is free

stewart woodward,

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Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

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