 Poster: A snowHead
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rayscoops,
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seem to recall that MK originally went bust and was bought by its current owners for very little, so the 'fridge' it does not have to finance its initial construction.
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Capital & Regional have owned Xscape since a very early stage in contstruction, and then it was sold to their X-Leisure fund in about 2007. I think it was the snow operator, Leisurenet, that you're thinking of who went bust in 2001.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
The "experience" is not good enough to attract keen skiers like myself to use it regularly at weekends (when I would have the time). I live 30 mins away, I love to ski, but I don't ski there. It always seems to be busy at weekends, so clearly no shortage of new punters. The demographic at those times is most certainly early beginners, so they can't by definition be regular slope users?
All I'm saying is that it could be run a LOT better than it currently is. |
The managers would probably argue taht if they are regularly crowded, then they don't need to run it any better.
That may be a rather short sighted view, but many businesses are not noted for their long termism. |
Agreed, I was thinking exactly the same. Probably one of the reasons why the slope supervision is so slack. If they kicked off all the out of control skiers/boarders on a Sat afternoon, there wouldn't be many people left. You can pretty much get away with skiing as recklessly as you like or simply rock up on the main slope as a complete beginner, totally un-supervised. I've never seen them take any action, other than checking ticket timings. It would be interesting to know if anyone ever has been booted off the slope?
But regardless of their business model, it's really not an attractive proposition to go skiing there at the weekends. I've used a lot of dry slopes in the past and really enjoyed them. Snow (even of low quality) potentially makes the experience a lot better, but not at MK it doesn't. I've also been to Tamworth a few times and that seemed better. I'm looking forward to trying the new Hemel slope.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You can pretty much get away with skiing as recklessly as you like or simply rock up on the main slope as a complete beginner, totally un-supervised. I've never seen them take any action, other than checking ticket timings. It would be interesting to know if anyone ever has been booted off the slope?
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sorry but that is nonsense... and yes people do get the boot all the time.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
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You can pretty much get away with skiing as recklessly as you like or simply rock up on the main slope as a complete beginner, totally un-supervised. I've never seen them take any action, other than checking ticket timings. It would be interesting to know if anyone ever has been booted off the slope?
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sorry but that is nonsense... and yes people do get the boot all the time. |
I think you are arguing with a customer/potential customer's perception. Though I'm by no means a regular I share a perception that it is underpoliced, even as a novice telemarker I felt I was in the upper half of slope user skills (though I could always cheat my way out of tricky situations). I once saw a woman who was plainly terrified go all the way to the top of the slope then sideslip gingerly all the way down. Not as surprising as when I saw her about an hour later (obviously having been pepped up by her husband/friends) in the same position again. She was clearly at risk from both her own timidity/lack of skills and other slope users.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
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You can pretty much get away with skiing as recklessly as you like or simply rock up on the main slope as a complete beginner, totally un-supervised. I've never seen them take any action, other than checking ticket timings. It would be interesting to know if anyone ever has been booted off the slope?
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sorry but that is nonsense... and yes people do get the boot all the time. |
Right that's it, camcorder action coming soon. Then we can all see if we agree on my perception of weekend slope usage 
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skimottaret, We often pass by the slope while out shopping and usually stop to watch the skiers for a few minutes. I haven't seen anyone get seriously hurt either, but I've seen loads of people skittled simply from the crowding and general lack of slope sense. I've also seen more than a few totally out of control teenagers attempting to straight line it with a dangerously high balls to talent ratio. If I do manage to sneak a few minutes with the camcorder, I guarantee it will look like a scene off Jackass.
Maybe it's different while you're around, if you're actively involved in the crowd control?
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uktrailmonster, I haven't been to MK for about 18 months, but from my limited experience of the place, what you say I totally agree with. Very little if any Safety Patrol, Totally incompetent skiers going from the top of the hill straight to the scene of the accident. The last one I saw, to which I gave first aid to, was a lady who obviously hadn't a clue how to ski, as I'd seen a couple of her previous runs and crashes, who skied totally out of control into a grind rail type piece of furniture that was totally unprotected. she suffered a nasty break to the lower leg, as she skied straight into steel box section. I held her screaming until MK First Aiders and Ambulance arrived.
I complained about having unprotected furniture on the slope, which was made worse by the fact that it was unavoidable, due to the fact that the lower section of one slope had been cordoned off for tobogganing.
It fell on totally deaf ears from the Duty Manager. I've never returned.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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uktrailmonster, yeah a lot of straightlining goes on and if they crash out at the bottom words are exchanged...
Spyderman, You have trotted that story out a few times and as terrible as it sounds can you say hand on heart you've never heard of someone having a bad break at Hemel?
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skimottaret, I have seen bad breaks at Hemel, but that isn't the point. The point is the injury was as a direct result of improper management and poor safety, by allowing unprotected metalwork to be left on the slope, whilst restricting the clear slope by cordoning it off for tobogganing, forcing beginners, who shouldn't have been allowed on the slope in the first place, to ski through metalwork. That has never happened at Hemel and I'm sure never will.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| slikedges wrote: |
Nothing wrong with going there to learn to ski, is there? The demographic would indeed be beginners and early intermediates in the main, but you will regularly see excellent skiers learning also if you're there at the right time... However that isn't really what I was getting at. The customer experience must be good enough to keep people going there. Of course in 2 months they'll have a choice. 
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The "experience" is not good enough to attract keen skiers like myself to use it regularly at weekends (when I would have the time). I live 30 mins away, I love to ski, but I don't ski there. It always seems to be busy at weekends, so clearly no shortage of new punters. The demographic at those times is most certainly early beginners, so they can't by definition be regular slope users?
All I'm saying is that it could be run a LOT better than it currently is. |
It may not be good enough to attract keen skiers like you but it is good enough to attract keen skiers like me. I'd say the demographic is beginners and early intermediates (what's an intermediate again?), not just early beginners, and I go enough to recognise at least some as regulars. At certain times you will see excellent skiers (not me  ) learning and practising there, and my point remains that (yes, maybe only given current market conditions) the customer experience is good enough to fill the place to the rafters whatever the standard of the users.
I don't disagree that it could've been run better from a skier's standpoint. However I'm not qualified to say if it could've been run better from an accountant's standpoint.
| skimottaret wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
...You can pretty much get away with skiing as recklessly as you like or simply rock up on the main slope as a complete beginner, totally un-supervised. I've never seen them take any action, other than checking ticket timings. It would be interesting to know if anyone ever has been booted off the slope?
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sorry but that is nonsense... and yes people do get the boot all the time. |
Fully agree with skimottaret here. People get booted off all the time. There is an express policy on this which is followed carefully. I also will alert the lifties when I see out of control skiers or skiers who do not meet the minimum recreational standard for open practise. And I haven't to my recollection seen a broken bone there before either.
So far as metalwork goes, of course it's potentially dangerous but it's there to be used so pointless to cordon it off. That's why some real resorts have even closed parks altogether. I agree with Spyderman though that it isn't ideal to then shut the remaining uncluttered slope for toboganning  . Hemel of course has gone for boxes (closed sides) rather than open rails, a single predetermined slope/freestyle evening a week and toboganning on a section of the nursery slope only, and these all sound like sensible, safety minded and effective ideas. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Spyderman, I am not trying to be MK's marketing department but virtually all the students i have had enjoyed their sessions immensely. Sure there are loads of things that could be improved upon but as i said before they are pulling their socks up and I dont see too many long faces on the slope. The main beef is usually when only one lift is running which is a very poor when it is busy and yes toboganning drives everyone insane except for all the people who have fun doing it  I seem to have come in there at the point you left so perhaps my experience is just different and to be fair more current.
To change tack a bit the dry slopes I have seen are generally in disrepair, underfunded, managed on a shoe string without safety patrols with jumps and ramps pulled out as and when by the teenagers. they IMO have many more injuries than at the domes but i wouldnt tell people that they are mismanaged or dangerous, loads of people have a great time if used responsibly.
I am just try to be balanced in my advice and if MK is someone's nearby slope it isnt all doom and gloom. Once the crazy busy season is over it will be enjoyable to ski there and if i lived nearby would be happy to ski there but would pick my times carefully and not go when it is crowded.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
...I dont see too many long faces on the slope. The main beef is usually when only one lift is running...
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I'd agree with this too. Everyone seems to have a good time except when only one lift runs and the queue extends out onto the slope, which thankfully these days is much less often!
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, I agree I'm at least 18 months out of touch with MK, but I'm also looking at the posts on this thread, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of positive opinion about MK here.
I'm pleased you say that things are improving, no doubt as a result of the imminent competition that they are faced with. As I said earlier competition is a good thing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| slikedges wrote: |
the customer experience is good enough to fill the place to the rafters whatever the standard of the users.
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You could say that about Burger King and Ryanair too. Just because it's packed out, doesn't mean it's any good. Their priority is clearly to cram in as many people as possible. I don't think they care about how good the skiing experience is. Half the slope is closed for kids sledging at peak times during the weekend, so you can see how much priority skiing is given - none. If you can use the slope at off peak times, then I'm sure it's much better, but unfortunately I can't.
All I ask of them is to make skiing/boarding more of a priority at the weekends during Peak times. But it seems more like a kids bouncy castle. Would you seriously pay full price to ski there while the whole centre section is closed off? I'm sorry but it's a joke. Let's hope Hemel is run more as a serious ski/board club.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hemel of course has gone for boxes (closed sides) rather than open rails, a single predetermined slope/freestyle evening a week
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That'll upset the boarders!! Have you ever read any of the boarding forums and seen the level of moaning that goes on about how how unreasonable it is that the toys aren't left out all the time, or at least during off peak times, they reckon they're the most "frequent" customers but these places are all aimed at skiers, etc...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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uktrailmonster, I also had a very poor experience the only time I've been to MK (a long way from Bath for a ski test in which we couldnt' test skis properly due to all the issues you've already raised). I would never go to an Xscape facility again as a result. However Hemel was a super slope on plastic, and I see no reason to think it won't be really well run as a snowdome.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret, Summer is interesting, because that's when all these slopes need to attract regular hardcore skiers for custom. In the winter there seems to be no shortage of beginners and pre-holiday warm-up skiers around.
I too am hoping Hemel will be run more like a proper ski club, with focus on using the extremely limited slope space for actual skiing! A decent annual membership scheme would be a good start and perhaps restricted access for non-members at peak times. Even a decent uplift would make it hugely better than MK! Another good analogy would be a private tennis club v local park free for all. When resources are severely limited, the experience is only likely to be positive if access is strictly controlled. MK is just too much like a zoo at weekends to make it worthwhile for a half decent skier to get anything out of it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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uktrailmonster, Hemel does have a membership scheme which you can sign up to now, check out their website...
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uktrailmonster, rather an expensive club!!
Don't forget it's a commercial venture and the idea is to make money, restricting access to members at peak times doesn't sound like the way to do that...
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There is a strict limit on numbers already imposed, mainly on the grounds of H & S, but also to give a good user experience. Nobody wants overcrowded slopes and long lift lines. I can't rembember the actually numbers, but it's split between max on Trainer slope and Main slope.
The 2 Poma lifts on the main slope are state of the art and I know for a fact the guy in charge of looking after them knows his stuff, because it's the original Hemel man.
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Spyderman, Manchester doesn't currently operate at the max numbers allowed by H&S rules, it has the max set lower than this to improve the customer experience as you say. No idea what Snozone do.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The one and only time I have been to Manchester I found that it was incapable of functioning to a basic level - 1 lift broke down but still selling tickets to allow more people on to slope. Mass queue jumping by ski club to everyone else's ire. 4 runs in an hour - no thanks.
Slope was nice and wide and skiable though unlike MK.
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fatbob, these would be the same lifts as installed at Hemel me thinks.. Obviously though they will never break down there as they have the original Hemel man on the job
I just hope that Hemel doesnt fall into the same trap as CHill and assume that because they have the latest facility, equipment and knowledgable ski industry people that they wont make any mistakes in their opening and early execution.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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uktrailmonster, didn't say it was good, just that it was good enough. I don't think these things are easy to turn a profit on. Peak hours are just that and it's the customer's choice. There are however times you can find even on a weekend at mk when there's enough room to ski. Improvements can always be made but we'll have to disagree on your dismissal that it's a joke and that no half decent skier would get anything worthwhile from it.
Let's see how things work out at Hemel. I expect they'll set a new standard and this will be good thing for all.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, I'm sure Hemel will have start-up teething problems.
The lift guy is tops though. They will break down I'm sure, but with his skill, down time should be kept to a minimum.
Hopefully the staff only shakedown period will iron out most of the glitches, before it goes live.
I think that was a big issue at Chill.
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Spyderman, just messing with you a bit any news on when the soft opening will be and for how long?
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, The issue is that until handover from McAlpines, the site technically belongs to them, so we'd have to get permission to ski there, as well as ski in hard hats, hi-vis, etc. So not an option.
Before final handover, the Snowcentre needs to be sure that as many snagging issues are sorted as possible.
There will be a soft opening to staff to test systems and compact the snow, plus of course staff training.
I don't have the exact date yet.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| beanie1 wrote: |
uktrailmonster, rather an expensive club!!
Don't forget it's a commercial venture and the idea is to make money, restricting access to members at peak times doesn't sound like the way to do that... |
I realise that. A fridge that size is never going to be cheap to run. If it really turns out that snowdomes can't be profitably run as a club for the benefit of regular skiers and snowboarders, then I'm afraid I won't ever be using them. MK certainly doesn't work for me, which is why I don't bother skiing on it despite it being on my doorstep. I'm just hoping Hemel doesn't just turn into another snowy kids bouncy castle.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| slikedges wrote: |
uktrailmonster, didn't say it was good, just that it was good enough. I don't think these things are easy to turn a profit on. Peak hours are just that and it's the customer's choice. There are however times you can find even on a weekend at mk when there's enough room to ski. Improvements can always be made but we'll have to disagree on your dismissal that it's a joke and that no half decent skier would get anything worthwhile from it.
Let's see how things work out at Hemel. I expect they'll set a new standard and this will be good thing for all. |
There's no disagreement here. It's good enough for you , but not good enough for me.
We just have a different idea about what "good enough" means.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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uktrailmonster, there is too a disagreement - read the post. There's just no disagreement over what I had already said here:
| slikedges wrote: |
| It may not be good enough to attract keen skiers like you but it is good enough to attract keen skiers like me. |
Me and a whole lot of other ordinary people without the expectation of a private club.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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slikedges, We're not going to agree on our opinions of MK. Some people, like yourself, think it's great. Others, like myself and many others on this forum, think it's poor. I think there's an opportunity here for Hemel to do a much better job. It doesn't have to be a private club. It just needs more focus on the primary use of the slope, crowd control and general organisation.
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uktrailmonster, nowhere will you have seen me state that MK is "great", just that pretty patently it isn't nearly as bad as a very few specific people on this forum who seem to have a chip on their shoulder about it always condemn it as, and indeed it can be quite good enough for many purposes. I do agree about Hemel, though I fervently hope it doesn't attract its own band of detractors here also. These places are a great advantage to skiers in this country and should be supported, at least for what they are and what they can offer. What they're not is easy businesses to run. There'll always be a compromise between the economic realities and the skier's ideal, and whilst they may never be good enough for you, to imply that they're not good enough for anyone is inaccurate and might possibly be seen as a little disingenuous. Like I've intimated, many make the effort to find better times or periods to go when conditions suit them and then get a lot out of them. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about MK. I'm comparing my experiences there with other domes I've been to. Tamworth I've been to twice, first time it was very icy, second it was foggy at the bottom, but it was quiet and seemed to be well run.
Chill FactorE, only once and was very impressed, apart from possitioning of metalwork at head height as you get on the Poma.
MK about 12 times, each time the experience wasn't great, for a multitude of reasons I'm not going to repeat, so as not to upset Skimotteret. Last straw was 18 months ago.
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Spyderman, maybe not, but that's often how it comes across, and anyway it's not just you. Not to measure my dome experience against yours, but my perception is that MK is a victim of its own success. It's so popular that it is noticeably more crowded than the many others I've been to and that leads to various things then becoming a problem. They could have set a lower peak capacity to enhance the customer experience but they would have made less money and neither do I know of any evidence of a disproportionate injury rate to necessitate this. However, now that there'll be local competition from an excellent new slope at Hemel, there is at least some possibility of an incentive to do this, though the reality is that any dome has to make hay while the sun shines...over the winter season!
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slikedges, No chip on my shoulder either. If I thought it was good, I'd say so. I have no vested interest. I never said it wasn't good enough for anyone, I only said it wasn't good enough for people like me (a good recreational skier who can only normally use it at peak times). I even said it would be much better at off peak times for obvious reasons. At weekends the over-crowding and slope use for sledging are the 2 main turn-offs. Other problems are the slow, unreliable lifts and often the snow quality. I've skied there maybe 20 or so times over the years and never really felt like it offered good value for money. I don't bother at all anymore. I've also skied extensively on many dry slopes and the Tamworth snowdome a few times, which I thought was better. I will be trying the Hemel slope next and I'll say how I honestly feel about it, either good or bad.
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the business models are completely different
hemmel is a ski slope with a ski shop next door
Milton keynes is a shopping centre with a ski slope attached
the last i heard there were some very confident figures being banded around by MK saying that hemmel would only reduce their footfall by 3% based on my previous experiences in the place i would reckon on nearer 30%
as Spyderman said earlier the place is consistantly littered with rails and other junk on one slope then they close the bottom of the other slope to allow 6 kids to sledge when there are 40+ skiers having to cut across onto the other cluttered slope
skimottaret maybe you don't go there at the same times that i have been there, but it still happens... frequently
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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uktrailmonster, I can certainly agree that it wouldn't suit a good recreational skier at peak times. Indeed imo it's the over-crowding at peak times that's the greatest pain - victim of its own success. Toboganning still happens (it's a big earner) but lift reliability has been quite good for a while and snow quality, which has always gone through good and bad periods, has generally been more consistently better. Still Hemel will be a clean slate with everything going for it so I'm looking forward to it opening too. Maybe I'll see you there
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slikedges, I don't have a chip either, just had a bad experience and see no reason to pay to repeat it. In addition I've had to sort out problems caused by poor teaching (mainly on the learn to ski in a day things).
Also I am concerned that, as everyone is saying 'snowdomes are here to make money', what happens when the novelty wears off as it did with plastic slopes? Will they continue to operate in the summer? I doubt it. In the meantime many more of the dry slopes may well have closed and we'll be left with not much viable skiing in the UK in the summer. We used to have over 150 dry slopes in England alone. 
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