 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all. Thank you all for your kind thoughts. It may be useful to the thread for me to say that the insurance I carried was issued by a French insurer, AXA, and was specifically for winter sports. As far as I am aware it equals Carte Neige for winter sports and is far superior for continental travel in general. The main issue for me was a systemic unwillingness to make contact with the insurer or to recognise the validity of my policy. It seems clear to me that the extra admin involved in recovering the money was weighed against my well being-I lost. I have skied many winters in France and this to me was a prime example of French customer "focus".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Makes you wonder. Basically, from what PG has said, we should get Carre/Carte Neige whilst skiing in France, unless we want to be walking/skiing banks. An extra cost to budget for. I guess compared to the overall cost of skiing in my favourite French reort, Val D, it's not a lot. But it's a niggle.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As mentioned earlier, it would be interesting to see how the system works elsewhere. France is not alone in having a privatised ambulance system and a combination of public and private health clinics. Small businesses often work with very tight margins - especially in France where the likes of employers' national insurance contributions are very high - and as I mentioned before, once a patient has returned home it would be weeks, even months, before they got paid - if ever, in some cases.
Where the system appears to break down is over the delays involved in obtaining settlements from insurance companies when a policy has been acquired outside of France. In snowbunny's case, even if the holding company is French, I imagine all the negotiations would have to go through the UK agents and underwriters.
One problem is that there is often a waiver and the sum is therefore not completely covered. Another issue may be that the small print could require you to pay the bills involved and then make a claim against your insurer yourself. In this event the insurer may refuse to deal with the ambulance company/health clinic. It is very often the case that it is you personally that is covered, and therefore up to you to claim for costs incurred.
Language, and the plethora of insurance companies out there, is another problem. For a £50 or a £100 bill, should the ambulance company be expected to sit down and pore over the small print, in a foreign language? Put together a dossier and post it off at his cost, in order to make a claim against an insurance company he may never have heard of, all for a relatively small sum? Send off reminders, statements, in a foreign language? The extra admin would be horrendous - it would be unworkable.
On the other hand I've experienced the workability of the premier or gold card cover - whereby you phone your insurance company and they contact the people concerned, to come to an arrangement.
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Nick, I don't believe anyone could quibble over 2.5 Euros per day for Carre Neige.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PG, Fully understand the logic of what you say. It does seem to be less hassle in other countries, particularly Austria and Canada, though. But I think I have got my head around it, and will do a bit of research into Carre/Carte Neige. I wonder if it covers things like pre-existing medical condtions. And of course, you have to try to persuade others in your party it's a good idea. If one of them gets injured, you don't want to be arguing with the paramedics etc about his/her cover. Looks like a smart move to have your UK bank contact details handy. What fun. Not.
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David@traxvax, No. But it has to be bought. And does it really cover everyone? Age? Pre-existing medical conditions? Is there a lot of form filling at the lift office? Dunno. Just more things to find out  Banff might be nice next year.
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My only experience of using the meat wagon/local doctor, was in Austria. My wife had totally ruptured her ACL whilst skiing in Obergurgl, and was transported by snowmobile off the mountain to the local doctor. We weren't asked for any money or financial details (only local address) and my wife was given speedy, first class treatment, followed by 5 days of follow up. On the final day we were given a final bill and the 90euro payment for the mountain recovery, which we paid and claimed (without any problems) off our insurance on our return. Are they just more trusing in this particular doctor's practice?
In the above incident in France, surely credit card payment, or credit card details (as a deposit similar to the car hire companies) would have been more tactful or dignified?
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David@traxvax, it doesn't sound a lot when you say it like that, but when you multiply it by 7 and then by 5 for a family, it is another £65 which I would rather not have to spend. Especially when an annual travel insurance policy for a family only comes to £75 (which we already have) and appears to cover everything that a Carre Neige does (and lots more besides), but is just not recognised by the French.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hywel, I'm trying to think of a doctor's practice in France that I have visited that takes credit cards - I'm pretty sure that virtually none do. Larger medical practices, grouping several doctors together along with a secretary, are still pretty rare in France. In many cases you have a doctor working on his own, with no secretary, taking his own appointments.
Clinics - ie private hospitals - do take ccs (Visa or MasterCard), in most cases.
In Austria is it a mostly a public health system, from ambulances up?
In France there are many more private institutions than in the likes of the UK, and they are used by a far greater percentage of the population. All ambulances are private businesses, with the exception of the 'pompiers', linked to the French Army. This service is entirely free, and reinforced with fully trained volunteers. When they are called out it is mainly to real emergencies. They are very efficient (although I saw one in tears when she was unable to save someone's life not so long ago!). When the situation demands, and they cannot move a patient, if possible an on-call doctor will attend from the local state hospital, whatever the time of day or night. No charge for this either.
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| PG wrote: |
| Hywel, I'm trying to think of a doctor's practice in France that I have visited that takes credit cards - I'm pretty sure that virtually none do. |
Ironically though, we've been able to pay for everything else by credit card in France, whereas in Austrian Resorts, credit cards are rarely accepted - Cash in the lift pass office, cash in the guest house etc. Apparently the 500euro note is important for Germans and Austrians due to their dislike of cheques and credit cards?
Credit card agreements ie the ability to accept credit cards only cost about £200-£300 a year (plus %age commision) which could easily be passed on to the customer, and banks actually prefer these transactions to handling cash.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Just to add grist to the mill: one of our loacal doctors has been temporarily struck off twice for fiddling insurance claims - he is widely used by the British TOs as he does all the work on the insurance stuff!!!! (He also speaks excellent English). 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hmm.. let me add my 2p worth..
I got slegded off the mountain in Les Gets, Ambulanced 500m to the docs, xrayed, filled full of morphine, paid the doc €65, paid the ambulance fee & pisteurs fees by card the next day (doc also by card) None of them could have been more helpful.. claimed it all back in UK.
E111 all that was carried.
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Just to clarify following nickbunting's post, you will very rarely come across a French doctor who takes CCs - so it is best to make the assumption that you need cash for any visits you have to make. In the best part of two decades here I've made more trips to the docs with children and elderly relatives than I care to remember and NONE have taken CCs.
On the issue of E111 cover, the above experience doesn't concur with my own, nor does it tally with the F.O.'s information on this topic.
[Aside] Some people who are regular summer and/or winter visitors to France might consider opening a euro bank account with a French bank. Saves carrying large quantities of cash around, and virtually all businesses in France will take cheques with proof of ID. I'm not sure about the acceptability of a cheque from one EU euro zone member state in another, but it's likely that it can be used at the very least for the payment in advance of deposits on accommodation etc, with the payee having to pay any bank charges. On the other hand I can't see a restaurant in Brussels accepting my French bank cheque just with proof of ID (French banks don't issue cheque guarantee cards). Would be useful to find out more about this.
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You know it makes sense.
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Well what a joy the European single market is. PG, your explanation above of the breakdown between French authorities and foreign insurance companies sounds like a technocrat's dream. My point still remains; each year hundreds of thousand's of British skiers (let alone the rest) visit France and for this situation to persist is simply not acceptable. And let's not forget snowbunny's experience in VT; the ambulance service and Cabinet Medical told her they will not accept credit cards but cash only. She was detained under who knows whose authority, with treatment only completed upon the appearance of cash. Elsewhere that's known as kidnap. The piste patrol(!) did not recognise her insurence cover and would accept cash only. By the way, from long experience in France I dare say that a good proportion of that cash goes straight into pockets and is undeclared. The piste patrol then steal her skis. Snowbunny, if that happens again my advice would be to call the police and report the theft.
What this boils down to is plainly nothing more than a shocking way to treat a visitor. The sooner skiers take their money elsewhere the better.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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does anyone know if andorra offers insurance along with ski hire that is similar to the french Carte Neige system or are they ok with e111 and insurance details ??
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Poster: A snowHead
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More on Carte Neige here. Looks like essential kit in France. Anyone know of a site listing terms and conditions in English - and if it can be bought in the UK?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't think it's reasonable to expect French service providers to figure if you're appropriately insured (other than whatever's covered via the E111 and Carre/Carte Neige). That's between you and your insurance company. From a practical point of view, if I were expecting guaranteed payment, I'd accept debit (preferably) and/or credit cards. More chance of payment with minimum hassle - surely worth the fees.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nick, there is a useful article in natives re carte neige, there are a number of websites mostly French ski clubs affiliated to the Federation Francais du Ski who are licencees for Carte Neige, in essence the local ski club where you purchase Carte/Carre Neige get a % of it's cost. I suppose that on its own is enough to deter the Francophobes. There is a website www.carreneige.com but no English translation.
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Poor you snowbunny. I can sympathise having had a similar experience which resulted in a dislocated. But I'm appalled at the treatment you received. I agree with others that rescue and immediate treatment should occur regardless of your insurance details. What if someone is skiing on their own and knocked unconscious?
It sounds too as though there is no consistant policy in France. I see that someone in Courchevel was asked for money but I know of at least two people who were taken off by the piste patrole and treated in the medical centre without being asked for money or insurance up front.
My accident was in Andorra and there was no mention of insurance from beginning to end. I was taken off in a bloodwagon by two really kind men and treated efficiently and promptly in the resort clinic where my shoulder was put (painfully) back in the socket. I claimed the cost of lift pass and painkillers when I got home from my insurance company. Funnily enough, yesterday, I got an offer of a free lift pass from Andorra to encourage me to ski there again.
It certainly sounds as if a Carre or Carte Neige is needed for peace of mind, but that really adds to the insurance costs if you've already bought an annual policy as we have!
If all the above dreadful stories are true I feel so cross I don't want to ski in France again (going to Courchevel on Saturday!) And I am certainly not a francophobe.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This is interesting. A group of use will be in Les Arcs at Feb 1/2 term, staying at Club Med, with their insurance - I'd hope that we would not have any problems. But would it be worth getting Carre Neige? And can it be purchased separately from the lift pass (Club Med provide lifht passes included in the holiday price)??
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As an expat of NZ, which does run a private/public medical system I'm au fait with the idea of expecting to recieve a bill for medical services rendered, even to receive a consultation bill up front for payment before service is provided - BUT even I am absolutely appalled that rescue services (i.e. piste patrol) - whether private or publicly funded - could insist on payment before service delivery!!!!
In any event I had thought that rescue services were operated by the resort management company? In which case resort management should be building their rescue service running costs into the lift fee they charge punters. Alternatively, if they're going to charge on a user-pays system, they should at least TELL you that that's the case when you buy your way onto their slopes/lift system.
I can see David@traxvax & PG's position - when in France, do as the French. But French management KNOW that at least half their punters aren't French. So it's up to the French to come up with a user-friendly (rather than service-friendly) system for dealing with accidents to non-French skiers on their resort slopes.
Which they have, in part. Carre neige is a great concept and I love it to bits.
But (as these pages indicate) it's not been advertised sufficently to Brits, nor explained properly if it is! If it were properly explained then Brits would start ditching their usual ski insurance and rely on a mixture of home contents insurance for the travel bits of their holiday, and Carre neige for the on-slope bit of it. Far cheaper, innit. 
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4thefunofit, personally I would rather have the full facts - from all sides - before passing judgment. Threads in snowHeads - inevitably - tend to be rather one-dimensional.
If snowbunny would like to give me a written breakdown of events, I would happily translate it and pass on a summary of her experience to the various parties involved or with a direct interest - the VT tourist office, the piste security, the ambulance company, and the medical centre.
As for the "breakdown in communication" between the French authorities and the insurance companies - I thought I had made it clear that neither the ambulance services, the piste security, nor the private healthcare clinics have anything to do with the French authorities.
Manda - the majority of the punters on the slopes in France are French. It is easy to understand how we might think otherwise, as most Brits congregate in the same resorts and the impression sometimes is that there are nothing but Brits in those resorts!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 24-01-05 17:10; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Red Leon, that's the one. it's written from a seasonaires viewpoint but that doesn't detract from the points made.
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PG, just to be clear, by 'authorities' I meant any body that happens to be in charge at any particular time and includes ambulance services, piste security and private healthcare clinics.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It would be negligent to refuse emergency treatment pending receipt of payment. It would be very interesting to have the response of the clinic on this question.
Manda, the carte/carré neige does not cover you for potential third party liability if you are responsible for an accident on the slopes.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You can get another type of insurance called Hinverna 4 Seasons which you can buy from the International Ski School Offices. That covers evacuation, primary medical care, repatriation, refund of liftpass and ski lessons etc AND third party liability. I've just paid €28 for the year - I know they do family ones as well. This seems extremely reasonable to me.
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easiski, can you PM me with details please.
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You know it makes sense.
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PG, I fully intend to contact the VT Tourist Office with a much more comprehensive details of my stay and experience than has been listed on this site. Once I am able to use 2 hands on the keyboard again I will take up your offer and PM you.easiski, sounds like a good deal, just advise against trying to get it recognised in VT, as it would need to be listed on a VT lift pass, and only purchases from the lift co. offices are recognised. If VT offered me a free week I would not go back. PG, I was not so much refused treatment as left alone to shiver with no boots, spectacles, coat, wallet, painkillers....... Periodically someone would come in and ask when the money was coming.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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PG, many thanks but it looks as if it's exclusive to ESI and their clients.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PG, Beat me to it.
David@traxvax, I don't think so because MMA is a major insurance company. I bought it when not anything to do with ESI, and here they just sell it over the counter. As far as I know it works just like the Carte Neige, but with bells on.
snowbunny, I believe there is an ESI in Val T. I'll just have to hope I don't get hurt at the bash if that's true and we get up there later in the week or early the following one
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I’ve had 4 occasions to use French medical services. 2 were medivac and I was treated without any reference to money or insurance until I was in a fit state to be talked to and by that time they’d already contacted my ins co (E111 + ins card + Carte Neige, all in wallet) I had no cash requests or chasing. The other two were reasonably minor and I was able to get to the med centre with some help from friends and had all my treatment and test done before payment was mentioned. Even then, when I produced my E111 and Insurance doc I only had to pay the difference and the Risoul centre let me go home and wire the money back!
I’m possibly lucky but I’ve had good service and the best treatment in France from people who cared about me and treated me with respect.
Though I suspect that the less able you are to respond to questions (ie. disorientation, shock, amnesia, etc.) the less hassle for cash you’ll get.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| David@traxvax wrote: |
| Nick, there is a useful article in natives re carte neige, there are a number of websites mostly French ski clubs affiliated to the Federation Francais du Ski who are licencees for Carte Neige, in essence the local ski club where you purchase Carte/Carre Neige get a % of it's cost. I suppose that on its own is enough to deter the Francophobes. There is a website www.carreneige.com but no English translation. |
Thanks David. At the moment I am booked for Switzeralnd only this year. But you never know, I might escape for a long w/e. Love to come on the snowheads EOS bash, but don't think I can. But I have definite thoughts for France next season. Seems to me there is a case for the SCGB to be afiilitated.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The Medical Centre in La Plagne certainly took credit cards when we were there two years ago, we used it for a non skiing related injury following a motorbike accident that happened two days before we went.....have to say they were excellent, X Rays, the lot.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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David@traxvax,
"I suppose that on its own is enough to deter the Francophobes."
As I have been most critical I presume that was directed my way. If so I'll thank you for not making assumptions. Honest criticism based on personal experience does not equate to Francophobia.
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This thread (and associated links) has served to confuse me completley now. I've always taken ski club insurance as I assumed - perhaps wrongly - that it would cover me for all my sliding activities including off-piste without a guide, getting me off the mountian, having any work done and getting me home. I also have my E 11 (and have a new one this year).
To be honest I am not too worried about reclaiming lost days off my pass nor even worried about cover for damaged and lost kit etc it is solely my safety and well being that is important so I want the best cover which will be the easiest for me to use should it be required. equally I am not particularly price sensitive as I believe insurance is something that should not be skimped so an extra GBP20-50 or so to cover me and my family is perfectly acceptable so what should I do?
E11 and carte neige
E11 and Hinverna 4 Seasons (I like the sound of the personal liability but need to know that it is as acceptable as the carte neige)
E11 + ski club insurance
E11 + another insurance provider
E11 + a combination of the above
Our main holidays are in france, heading to La Tania on March 12th for a week and may sneak in another solo trip towards the end of the season.
so what do you think?
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ashton parker .. a practical, sensible question - and we're all stumped! One that needs answering though, but also means some close scrutiny of the small print. But I'm sure snowHeads will be up to the task!
In the meantime some interesting info from myfinances.co.uk
| Quote: |
Winter sports enthusiasts are being urged to get the proper insurance before hurling themselves down the piste.
Tesco Travel Insurance is welcoming calls by Italian ski officials to make safety helmets for all skiers and snowboarders compulsory.
Foreign Office research shows that over a third of 18-34-year-olds taking a last minute skiing holiday fail to adequately insured themselves.
The head of Tesco Travel Insurance, Allan Burns said: "The message for all winter sports enthusiasts is not to put yourself at any additional risk."
He pointed out that skiing and snowboarding are high-risk sports, so appropriate precautions are "essential".
The supermarket-linked insurance company found in its latest survey that as many as one in ten winter thrill seekers have been involved in a collision on the slopes.
For some of them it resulted not only in personal injury but also third party injury and costly legal bills.
Mr Burns also added that medical care costs in foreign countries have rocketed in recent years, so insurance is needed to avoid expensive bills. |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm going with the E11, the annual family ski club insurance and then get a carte neige for the week - an extra EUR30 for piece of mind is worth it I guess as there is no definitive answer.
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FAQ
