 Poster: A snowHead
|
| saikee wrote: |
| It is possible a 2WD car with winter tyres can perform better on snow than a 4x4 on summer tyres. At the end of the day it is the tyre that matters most. |
Possible? it's fact esp. when you take into account braking road holding etc. People spend thousands more on the purchase and running costs of a 4x4 without the blink of an eye but winter tyres for a few hundred quid are too expensive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
My 4x4 has buttons to press.
Not been stuck yet
and always pack on the hardpack next to the ski shop owners Landrover 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Boredsurfing, I thought you were a snow tyre convert. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
If 4x4 with summer tyres were that good in winter then numerous European countries (e.g. Austria, Switzerland, Germany) wouldn't state that residents require more suitable tyres in winter conditions. 4 wheel drive with winter tyres means it is very unlikely that you will ever be required to put on chains.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| DB wrote: |
| ..... People spend thousands more on the purchase and running costs of a 4x4 without the blink of an eye but winter tyres for a few hundred quid are too expensive. |
Tell me the old, old story of winter tyres that grip,
How when I’m in the mountains, they’ll save me every trip.
Tell me the story simply, as to a little child,
For when it comes to safety, I’m helpless and defiled.
Refrain
Tell me the old, old story, tell me the old, old story,
Tell me the old, old story, of winter tyres that grip.
Tell me the story slowly, that I may take it in,
That wonderful redemption, your remedy for sin.
Tell me the story often, for I forget so soon;
The early dew of morning has passed away at noon.
Refrain
Tell me the story softly, with earnest tones and grave;
Remember I’m the sinner whom you have come to save.
Tell me the story always, if you would really be,
In snowy times of trouble, a comforter to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
achilles
Nice poem shame about the tyres
| Quote: |
Take special care when driving in winter, especially in the mountains (and keep in mind that winter lasts from september to may in the higher parts of the alps and snowfall is in general possible at any time of the year). Icy roads kill dozens of inexperienced drivers every year. Avoid speeding and driving at night and make sure the car is in a good condition. Motorway bridges are particularly prone to ice. Slow down to 80 km/h when going over them.
Winter tires are strongly recommended by Austrian motoring clubs. When there is snowfall, winter tires or snow chains are required by law on some mountain passes, and occasionally also on motorways. This is indicated by a round traffic sign depicting a white tire or chain on a blue background. It is always a good idea to take a pair of snow chains and a warm blanket in the boot. Drivers often get stuck in their car for several hours and sometimes suffer from hypothermia.
Contrary to popular belief there is no need to rent an off-road vehicle in winter (though a 4x4 is helpful). In fact, small, lightweight cars are better at tackling narrow mountain roads than sluggish off-road vehicles. Virtually all roads in Austria open to the public are either covered in tarmac or at the least even surfaced. The problems normally encountered are ice and steepness, not unevenness. When driving downhill the only remedy against sliding are snow chains no matter what vehicle you are in. |
http://wikitravel.org/en/Austria
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
We had winter tyres on my ancient Pajero when I lived in the Pyrenees and never had any trouble. The same car with normal tyres on does not instill the same feeling of stability! The other thing to note is that regardless of whether you have winter tyres or chains you can't just chug along like you do at home in the summer. FWIW my brother drove a series of incredibly unsuitable 2WD cars over the 9 years he lived out there, and never crashed one! And he never used chains.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ah, the joys of chains etc. We've tried all sorts, and light cars are easier to wriggle around resorts with winter tyres on than anything else, but harder to get everything in on the way down. We packed three large Scotsmen off to trundle around the Highlands in a Panda 4x4 with winter tyres a couple of years ago and they loved it aside form having to stick their equally large skis out of the windows. Hadn't got a roofrack. Doh.
I've certainly stared wide-eyed into the abyss in several extremely fancy 4x4s on road tyres after hitting a slippery patch and their vast weight takes over. Very comfy for 1,860 of the 1,864 miles covered, mind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| fallliner wrote: |
Ah, the joys of chains etc. We've tried all sorts, and light cars are easier to wriggle around resorts with winter tyres on than anything else, but harder to get everything in on the way down. We packed three large Scotsmen off to trundle around the Highlands in a Panda 4x4 with winter tyres a couple of years ago and they loved it aside form having to stick their equally large skis out of the windows. Hadn't got a roofrack. Doh.
I've certainly stared wide-eyed into the abyss in several extremely fancy 4x4s on road tyres after hitting a slippery patch and their vast weight takes over. Very comfy for 1,860 of the 1,864 miles covered, mind. |
Indeed, which way do you want to have the compromise?
We run a big 4x4 with vredesteins and it is the way to travel.
Comfort and space on the way down and can carry 6 pr of skis, 5 peeps and bags... although you need to be sensible here, and a bit of food for the chalet.
Petrol can be an issue but split bewteen 4-5 adults... no problem.
I would say that 4 in the car is best on the way down, but 5 at a push.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Is that inside the car or using a roofbox? Sounds like a box would be needed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I am in the Alps all season and for the past 2 seasons I have been driving a Fiat Panda (2WD) I have snow chains in the car and have used them twice. The skinny winter tyres go pretty much anywhere and if I am having problems nothing else is moving. So moral of the story... winter tyres on a 2WD Panda, chains in the boot...nae problems!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Not wanting to state the obvious but have found over the last few years that its more about the type of 4x4 system you have rather than the tyres. Have had no problems in a shogun sport as it has manual low box diff locks and have always managed to get through whatever even when disco’s and Range Rovers are struggling. Diff lock around some of the corners is a bit fun, more like a fairground ride !! than a nice drive up the mountain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| livetoski wrote: |
| Not wanting to state the obvious but have found over the last few years that its more about the type of 4x4 system you have rather than the tyres. |
Couldn't disagree more I'm afraid.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
I think as with all things to do with driving it's the driver not the car.... you can see proper 4x4s getting it all wrong when normal cars get it right....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
fallliner,
Well, it is a fancy 4x4 transformed by the tyres...massively..so we run a box for 6 prs so we don't mess up the leather, but that box hits the fuel on longer trips, but as far as these things go, I think we have just about go it covered as well as we can.
livetoski, no good if the tyres don't grip...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Spyderman, JT, OK, so the tyres on the shogun were quite good not full winter tyres always had newish conti cross contacts on, however as J Clarkson says "what can a button on the dash board do" better to have a proper gear shift to low box diff lock which makes a big clunck when engaged!! But I have to add the new little Panda's with 4 wheel drive always seam to get there as well!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Generaly the thinner the winter tyre the better the winter performance hence the reason winter rally cars have really thin tyres and fiat pandas are so good in the snow. In direct comparisons of winter tyres by the European automobile organisations smaller cars with thinner tyres perform better than the larger vehicles. Another reason to go for winter tyres is that you can often go for a thinner tyre than your summer tyres. 4X4 gives you better traction (but braking, roadholding etc are all worse) although it's unlikely you will see the benefit of the extra traction as you will normally be stuck behind 2WD vehicles. 4x4 comes into it's own when you don't travel with the masses in winter (off the beaten track). For the UK to France/Austria/Switzerland winter holiday makers this is unlikely. In winter 2WD with winter tyres will get you further than an SUV with summers tyres on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Works for me.
I have a Nissan Navara 4x4. I often tow a heavy trailer so the ute (sorry pickup) is great for that. I have a set of winter tyres on steel wheels. The end of Oct signals the time to change the wheels over.
The winter tyres and 4x4 (and dif lock when the the snow gets deep) has allowed me to carry on in many resorts while towing the trailer when others have come to a grinding halt although I always carry chains in case but have not had to use them in the 2 years since owning the Navara.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
kiwi1, Agreed, its the diff lock that gets you out of the car park after its snowed without having to get the shovel out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I scared myself silly one year after continuing straight on a downhill bend on a hard packed snowy road with snow chains on my rear wheels (rear wheel drive E Class), despite having almost brand new deep tread summer tyres on the front.
I decided to buy a set of Vredesteins as the next time we drove to the Alps – which happened to be last year when we had the marvellous snow conditions. They were immediately useful on the motorway near Bourg en Bresse where the snow was settling already! Snow chains would have been useless here and summer tyres would have been scary. In resort, I was gobsmacked at how effective they were – especially as they are quite fat tyres. One morning, with snow up to the top of the wheel arches on the driveway, I just drove out no problems at all. They are also fantastic when it is cold and wet. I’m a definite convert. The cost is not much extra as my summers are not wearing out whilst these are on in the winter, and the cost of 4 tyres is much less than the excess on my insurance premium should I hit something with the wrong tyres on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tatty,
Winter tyres are great and should be encouraged. However in your case the traction control in the Mercedes does help to get you out of the snow. Owners with cheaper models and no such aid may have a different story to tell.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Would I be nuts for taking a Peugeot 106 to the mountains for the season...? All this talk of 4be4s and big cars has got me worried!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| CSki wrote: |
| Would I be nuts for taking a Peugeot 106 to the mountains for the season...? All this talk of 4be4s and big cars has got me worried! |
Nope, you'd be spot on. As you see from the rest of the thread small cars with narrower tyres are often the best way to go. Make sure it has winter tyres though!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
CSki,
It would do if you have snow tyres on and can wait if there is a big snow storm raging.
If you go there with hard summer tyres we expect you have some tales to tell.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| CSki wrote: |
| Would I be nuts for taking a Peugeot 106 to the mountains for the season...? All this talk of 4be4s and big cars has got me worried! |
Stick a set of skinny winter tyres on it and away you go.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Personally iI use a Navara pick up with winter tyres for driving down to the Alps. BUT there is no greater fun than flying in, hiring a super mini micro nano economy car from Geneva (with winter tyres) then driving to resort, waiting for the snow and heading further up the valley passing stranded UK RRSports etc who can't figure out why I've got traction and they haven't 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Actually no - there is greater fun - it's leaving the pick up in 2WD and practicing power slides in the icy car park (it's the only time a diesel pick up is going to do them).
Oh and skiing of course - greater fun that is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
I rather think for a 2WD car if any one of the two driven wheel loses traction the vehicle will get stuck. This can easily happen when one drives a 2WD car and parks it temporarily on snow ground for just a few minutes. The car can sink/settle slightly and could possibly be supported mainly on 3 corner. When the throttle is applied and the 4th unsupported wheel spins then the car has it.
A 4WD or AWD or 4x4 improves the chance of not getting stuck by requiring two wheels to lose traction before the vehicle is stationary. Usually any one wheel from the front and another one from the rear. That is more difficult to occur in practice.
However if the 4WD or 4x4 is heavy, on a steep slope and has unsuitable tyres the car will just skid sideway instead moving forward because downward force is larger than the resistance the snow can provide. Thus a light 2WD with snow tyres isn't a bad arrangement because most proper 4x4 will be about 1 tonnes heavier and needs a lot of resistance from the snow.
So on a level ground a 4x4 with good tyres is a winner. When the slope gets really steep the weight of the 4x4 can become an disadvantage. Just think of a snowbasher can tread on any snow slope but for the steepest groomed piste in Austria it needs to be winched to groom the Harakiri. A 4x4 still has to be answerable to the law of physics.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 7-10-09 8:52; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
I've crashed off mountain roads 4 times in the last 2 years  It's bloody scary. One time I had both front wheels over a huge drop, with the truck rocking backwards and forwards.
Every time it's been in a big diesel 4wd, in low range, diffs locked, with icebreaker chains front and rear. Honestly not through bad driving, but just the laws of physics with the weight of the vehicle and snow on top of ice packing out the chains, or the road collapsing out from underneath me, whilst coming down some extremely steep "roads".
I've got a lightweight little 4wd now, and nothing stresses it out, it's so much better, and I've got a winch on the front of it, so I can get myself out a lot easier as well if needed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Guys, you're scaring me.
I'm off to La Norma in jan, four up in a C220 CDI (worst car I've ever driven in snow as I discovered when I got stuck on the day I bought it!). I have a set of chains and will practise putting them on before I go.
I chose La Norma partly because it says that it has a really easy access road and it's only 5 minutes from the motorway.
Do I really need winter tyres? I don't mind the expense, but I have nowhere to store the flippin' things over the summer - and it's a bit of a pain having to swap all four wheels over twice a year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
to all those getting worried because of the talk of big 4x4s.
You don't need 4x4s in the mountains at all. Often a little 2wd car with winter tyres like CSki's, will get more places that your average soft roader.
I've only got a 4x4 pickup because i often tow a heavy trailer so going down hill with a heavy load i'm often thankful for low ratio and 4wd and it's got me out of some deep snow.
Moral of the tale. Small cars are great in the mountains in winter but only with winter tyres and carry chains.
PS a personal preference, I replace engine oil with fully synthectic for less wear on the engine in sub zero conditions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| youspurs1 wrote: |
| Do I really need winter tyres? I don't mind the expense, but I have nowhere to store the flippin' things over the summer - and it's a bit of a pain having to swap all four wheels over twice a year. |
You might want to consider getting some all-season tyres with a mountain/snow flake symbol on them. You sacrifice a bit of summer performance for much better winter performance. These tyres will also perform better under 7 deg C and in the wet weather back in the UK.
http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=125
Proper winter tyres will be better esp. in icy conditions but these will be a lot better than summer tyres.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
youspurs1, Half the post on this forum ask if there will be enough snow to go skiing while the other half ask if there will be too much so chains are needed. Half full or half empty. Look on the bright side, if you need to use chains then think of the fun you will have skiing. Seriously, roads to resort will be cleared by plough unless you arrive in the middle of the night. Look at the forecast and adjust your travel times
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 7-10-09 9:30; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Seriously, roads to resort will be cleared by plough unless you arrive in the middle of the night.
|
but they can still be very slippy, especially on a gradient - and if it's snowing heavily they'll be covered again pretty quickly after ploughing. So you could still need chains - however, and despite the fact that I know snow tyres are better (and have them on all four wheels) I don't think someone going for a week to an easy access resort need be worried about not having them. But yes, have the chains, practice putting them on, and stop in a good place and put them on at the first sign of trouble. Lots of the cars you see sliding around, or stuck in a bank, probably have snow chains in the boot. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Only time I've ended up in a ditch we had snow chains on, but you couldn't see where the edge of the road was, so the driver (not me  ) drove into the ditch not realising it was even there. Still definately wouldn't have been able to get out of the ditch without the chains (and three blokes sat on the wing over the only wheel still on the road) and an lsd.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I've only got a 4x4 pickup because....................
|
Hmm, nothing to do with it being an LGV, and the associated tax and VAT rules then .
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
