Speeding skiers and boarders, hit-and-runs, and the law ...

A snowHead

the people who miss you by 6ins are the scariest. Our only nasty moment last year was when three racing snowboarders roared down a beautiful, wide, red piste which was totally empty, except for the five of us. One passed immediately in front of my husband while the other jumped his board over the back of his skis. I watched in horror from behind. The poor man was really shaken up and we had to stop for a break while he recovered. In fact, when he had recovered, he insisted that only an immediate vin chaud was likely to prevent a sharp deterioration in his medical condition (he is an insulin dependent diabetic with coronorary heart disease...).

That was an empty, wide piste. They were pretty good boarders (we saw them around the slopes a lot that day) but also inconsiderate and reckless slope users. Some beginners go much too fast, and are a menace. But some very good skiers and boarders are also inconsiderate and reckless snow users. I still think speed limits might have a role at busy times, especially on the pistes leading back to resorts, of whatever colour, and on blue and green pistes generally. But I see all the difficulties with it, including "speed across the ground or speed down the fall line?"

Incidentally, I appreciate it if people coming up quietly behind me on a narrow path click their poles and I am always careful to get out of their way and make it clear that I am waiting to be passed - as I do on the roads when the mad local drivers want to overtake on ice covered mountain passes.

A few highly publicised court cases would help a lot (remember the one in USA when the skier at fault was jailed, the judge having taken into account the fact that he was such an expert skier that he had no excuse for the collision, in which someone was killed.

A snowHead

Skiing is very similar to driving in that you owe a duty of care to other slope users. Therefore if you ski negligently and can reasonably foresee that you may harm someone by the way that you are skiing you would be liable to be sued for your actions. I do not know the French/ Swiss/ Italian/ Austrian legal systems but there are undoubtedly means of punishing 'careless' people in a similar way to the tort of negligence here. Under English law you could also be criminally prosecuted (theoretically) for grossly negligent manslaughter if you killed someone.

However do we really want to encourage an American style litigation culture where everyone has to be punished for what are ultimately accidents? Education is the best system, the reckless skiers will be reckless anyway, after all reckless drivers still are. If the piste patrol take the nutters aside and quietly explain to them that they are endangering their own safety and that of others people would respond better rather than ending up resenting the interference in their enjoyment of their holiday.

I am sure that we have all done stupid things skiing, I certainly have. Jumping out of the back of bunkers on the golf course at Meribel Altiport springs to mind!! At the end of the day everyone has to know their limits and what they can do safely. Bad skiiers need to know this too and shouldn't go onto black runs because they are a danger to everyone, equally good skiiers should not only know better but should also appreciate that they are more likely to encounter an erratic skiier on a green run and should temper their enthusiasm accordingly. COMMON SENSE should really be the answer!!!!!!!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Ended up posting my reply 3 times. Steam-powered internet connection!!!! Sorry! Moderator please remove these two if you like!!!

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I always thought that the pole click on narrow tracks was a courtesy, a sort of gentle way to let them know where I was. Confused

Certainly in mountain bike racing a shout of "track left/right" is just an acknowledged way of doing the same, and sound loads more aggressive.

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moosepig, the law, generally speaking, is a clumsy tool. Arbitrary lines are drawn 'in the snow' which may result in liability being unfairly attributed in some cases. But the uphill responsibility is the only practical way of enforcing a system, otherwise each case would be argued over endlessly and the result would be chaos. This way it's clear, and to an extent, fair. In cr500dom's case it can be argued that the instructor was partly at fault. But what would happen if a member of another stationary group suddenly begins to slide, out of control into your path? If you can't avoid the skier, then you are not skiing in control, you are demonstrably unable to make allowances for unexpected movements as the FIS code demands.

All I am suggesting is that a collision is always avoidable, whatever an instructor's/pupil's actions, if the uphill skier allows enough room to cover for involuntary/unexpected deviations in direction/movements.

After all it is free

Well is it not common sense that if you have 2 skiers, one is stationary and the other moving, that the dynamic skier is the one with all the blame!? Are you going to start suing resorts because you hit a tree?!

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moosepig, sorry, but you could be breaking two rules in that case! This scenario implies an intersection which would normally be clearly marked, usually with a "slow down" sign. As a result you would carry a sizeable proportion of the responsibility if you ignored instructions to slow.

Secondly, FIS etiquette rules specifically mention that as it is now possible to execute uphill turns, however slowly, with the new carving skis, skiers/boarders executing this (uphill) movement are under obligation de verify that it is possible to carry out this manoeuvre, against the normal flow of skiers, without endangering either themselves or other skiers....

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laundryman, Laughing

Agree with you all , i think speed is fine as long as you are able to control it , i ride a motorbike and when i ski i employ similar principles..... allways looking way ahead for the unexpected,looking side to side and frequent glances too the rear but above all giving room to those in front and expecting everyone to do something stupid. sounds like paranoia but it has kept me in one piece off the slopes for the last 20 yrs(and apparently i ride like a nutter) and hopefully in one piece on the slopes too.
I dont think that you can do much about it(speed)unless as some say you have limits , gatso cameras on the corners??what i think is a reasonable speed some may think is way too fast.

You know it makes sense.

On the subject of speed limits, even if there were lots of piste police this would be very difficult to enforce since not many skiers have speedos. A faulty speedo on your car is no defence to speeding but at least you are expected to know your speed. How many of us can really judge how fast we ski?

Alpe D'Huez has slow areas near the resort but i would hate to see these become standard across the mountain.

Enforcement is difficult if there are too many variables (unlike roads, the appropriate speed for a given section of a piste at one moment could be inappropriate 30 seconds later. The variables include visibility, snow conditions, how busy the piste is, the nature of the other users, the ability of the person in question...)

As has been mentioned before, I consider that the promotion of common sense, appreciation of others and a responsible nature is the key. How to achieve this nirvana is more tricky. I have previously suggested that resorts should offer a discount on the week's lift pass if you attend an hour long training course. Nothing too onerous and no certificates of competency, just something that will remind skiers of the FIS rules and that it is a good idea to think of others while out on the slopes. Not perfect and it won't stop the idiots being idiots, but it may help to remind the masses. Afterall, 98% of consider that we are above average drivers and the same probably applies to our skiing.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

stuarth,

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I have seen these manned slow areas in whistler..... they managed a couple of things..... first they slowed a few people. Second, the ones who didnt slow were made look like total idiots as they get chased down and stopped and third, they passed around stories of what happens when people ski or board (boarders are apparently much more guilty) dangerously so pretty much everyone then skied past the idiots who have been stopped and laughed at them even more..... even worse I guess is that a fair few of the ski patrol I saw were small women...... does even more for a big mid twenties guy's street cred to be caught, stopped and have their ticket taken away by a girl Very Happy

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PG, In cr500dom's case you mention the instructor was ABSOLUTELY at fault (I bet he was a red!) All instructors are taught to look up the hill first. We are all taught to teach our pupils to do the same. However this type of behaviour happens all the time. An instructor should know better.

pollittcl, Yes, but the Americans do what they're told most of the time - I can't imagine the french slowing down because they got shouted at, and certainly not the Italians who shout all the time anyway (no offence meant to anyone). Up here, if you shout at someone they usually employ extremely rude words that I don't know .....

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easiski ? Debatable, surely. Depends on the width of the piste, for a start. Nothing wrong with setting off from the side of the piste if it's wide enough and the uphill skier is a sensible distance away. Anyway, I agree that if the facts are as stated the responsibility lies to an extent with the instructor, but that wasn't my main point. The accident still could and should be avoided - and that is down to the uphill skier. I've seen previously stationary beginners on the side of a piste suddenly slide backwards at an alarming speed - the uphill skier bears full responsibility in the event of a collision for not allowing for this unexpected movement. You shouldn't steer close to skiers just because they're stationary, especially when carving at speed.

It is frustrating at times when groups of beginners snake slowly across narrow pistes, making it impossible to overtake, but this is nearly always on the slopes close to the resort, and people using the slopes responsibly shouldn't take any risks in overtaking, even if the isntructor appears to be doing it on purpose.

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Certainly when I was learning..... there was no option but to send ski school pupils away when there were uphill skiers, there was never a moment when there werent! From my pov, if uphill skiers were as careful as they should be, a downhill skier doesnt need to look up the slope. The only reason the downhill guy has to look up is because the powers that be know that the uphill skier is likely a prick and is aiming to pass too close at too high speed. If the uphill skier has made allowance for 'unexpected' movements, then a stationary skier moving off will already be covered.

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Have to agree with PG, although the instructor is potentially putting the students at risk by not teaching them to look up the slope before setting off, the responsibility must lie with the uphill skier. If I see a ski-school group on a piste, I always give them a wide berth simply because they could be any standard down to complete novice. This means that there is a fair chance that any number of them may do something unexpected at any time and I simply do not want to risk getting close.
As with mistermouse, I ride a motorbike and am always looking far into the distance, constantly checking the near-to-middle distance, am aware of my periphery and regularly check my mirrors. If I come across a learner on the road (let alone a bunch of them!), I give them as much room as possible. I see no difference with a group of learner skiers. Bottom line is, I don't want to crash, and avoiding others (well in advance if possible) is the best way I can see to avoid it.
Sorry, rant over Smile

After all it is free

it wont be long until there will be video cameras and monitors on the slopes, i think a good approach would be to have someone at the skilifts "walk you through" your mistake on the monitor or whatever. showing you where you went wrong, and what you should have done for next time. then of course, if you get too many "talks" then they can start doing something about your actions, restricting you from areas of the resort or whatever.

one of the reasons why im really liking the new RFID skipasses rather than the old photographs...

I have a friend who skied in the US a few years ago. He is the best British off-piste skier I've skied with (and that includes guides). The easiest way to get to where he was staying at the end of the day was to cut off the piste and go through some trees.
On the third day as he turned off the piste to do this a ski patrol guy jumped out from behind a tree and stopped him. He said "You're skiing off-piste, give me your lift-pass", so my friend said, "OK, just follow me down and I'll give you my pass at the bottom". He quickly lost him among the trees and luckily didn't see him again.

As for passing stationary groups, I sympathise, and the ski teacher wasn't behaving responsibly, but you do always have to allow for people starting off without looking. It is your responsibility.

I agree about ski classes zig-zagging accross the whole width of a piste (sometimes fairly wide ones, too). I wish they would leave a gap at one edge as a matter of principle, so people can (carefully) pass.
I was once in that situation (and could have stopped) but decided to overtake on a few feet of deep snow off the edge of the piste. The ski teacher was approaching the edge as I drew near and I assumed he would turn close to the edge as he had been doing. But instead he went into the off-piste about 8ft directly in front of me and stopped! I had to turn sharply and go off an edge without knowing exactly what was over it.

By the way, I too click my poles when about to pass someone on a path, but I always go on the assumption that they may still suddenly cut in front of me and am ready to go off the edge of the path at a moment's notice if they do so (but this is often only possible because I'm used to off-piste crud and tree-skiing).

I have to say that the only dangerous on-piste speeding I've done in recent years was trying to keep up with a guide who treated the crowd of ordinary piste users like moving slalom poles.

As an off-piste skier pistes often seem like much more dangerous places to me.

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Interesting Smile

I feel I should clarify something here, In my Original Post I took responsibility for the incident, I collected the girl and brought us both to a safe stop and apologised.
I was the uphill Boarder, so it was my responsibility. I also stated that I now give a wider berth to groups of sudents.

The location was a medium width Piste, slightly off camber. I committed to a carve that would take me clear of the group by at least 15-20ft. The Student stood up and went in one movement, it was not an accidental slide, I do know what you mean PG, but my margin for error had allowed for that eventuality.
I had not allowed for an instructor sending a pupil out in front of me, which Is just Bl**dy stupid (My ultimate responsibility or not).

FWIW, as with others on here I ride and Race Motor bikes, so my Spacial awareness and speed/distance awareness is arguably far greater than your average person, just because assimilating huge amounts of information at speed and under race conditions becomes 2nd nature, you soon notice it 1st time back on a bike after the off season.

Skiers and boarders on piste are moving slower and more randomly but the same skill set applies.

I was responsible for the collision and its safe conclusion wink

But the Instructor was responsible for being a Tw*t, which I kindly pointed out to him Very Happy

There was no need for that accident to happen, but for the stupid actions of one person, for which I am now responsible because of my position on the slope. Puzzled

Same senario.... ok wink

you are coming down a piste at reasonable speed for the conditions, and when you are almost level, someone deliberately sends a sledge/board/whatever into your path just to see what happens.......... you crash and its your fault because you were uphill/moving/wearing a red jacket ....whatever rolling eyes

It just absolves people down hill of any responsibility for their own actions, which is a far more dangerous prospect.

No-one was hurt, the girl because she was in safe hands and the Instructor because he wisely shut up Shocked

I give a wider berth now Toofy Grin

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snowball, after all, overtaking at that point was optional.

Precisely

You know it makes sense.

PG, I still think you're being too kind to the instructor concerned! I had another incident today. I was leading my 2 guys carefully down an empty blue piste and a red instructor came across, turned in front of me (OK he gave me a wide berth), but his 12 odd schoolkids following skied all over in and out of my guys and we were obliged to stop. What is this instructor (or the one mentiioned above) teaching his pupils? In this case we were the slower skiers.

It is the responsibility of the skier above and/or faster to avoid the skier below and/or slower, but it's also the responsibility of the joining skier to look up before setting off, to make sure it is safe. We, as a body (ski teachers) need to get a grip of this, and I'm sorry to say the reds need to start realising that they don't own every mountain in France! Shocked

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Sometimes wish I could practice what I preach Puzzled

Surely though it may be the legal responsibilty for the uphill skier to give way. It is a matter of prudence to check uphill before doing something unexpected. Not every uphill skier may have the courtesy of snowball to leap over the edge and it is better to avoid broken bones than to be in hospital safe in the knowledge that you were right. wink

A snowHead

WELL i think we can take it for granted that we are all experts but unfortunatley i dont think you will ever stop the speeding/reckless skier , they are normally just finished school and full of beans(in my view). i think that there should be more posters with emphasis on awareness but its up to us to have a little look up the hill before manouvering . you wouldn't pull out of a turning wihtout looking(at least i hope not)

A snowHead

easiski, there's certainly still a few relics of the old school of instructor around - born in the mountains, never left the mountains, and who behave as if they own the mountains - often the ones you'll find with the beginners groups as well. Still, I get the impression there are less and less these days. Or is that because I used to see more of them in the smaller, less fashionable resorts?

T Bar, only common sense to look before you leap as you say - but we forget sometimes that there are quite a few skiers on the slopes with the ability to look in one direction only - where they're going, or hope to be going! Add kids into the equation, and you're back at square one - the only workable system is to place responsibility on the uphill skier.

mistermouse, definitely agree there should be more emphasis on education.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I thought that it was recommended not to ski right to the edge of a piste or track without checking behind in order that a faster skier who may be overtaking has somewhere to go.

Especially a slow beginner or nervous skier (or me) on an icy track would not wish to keep looking over their shoulder as this is a great way to catch an edge.

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PG, on the question of responsibility/blame, shouldn't it be the faster skier, rather than the uphill one? Most of the time it would be the same (except for the likes of moosepig's example), but speed is more to the point. Except for the odd runaway, a faster skier should usually be the more skilled one and therefore responsible for being unable to stop/swerve in time. Of course, it may be difficult to prove who was faster.

A busy piste, like any other public route, is no place for racing. Perhaps there should be some pistes specifically marked out for people who want to go very fast.

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I once came round the corner of a fairly narrow tree lined piste to find the club med instructor had stopped his class in 2 neat rows right across the piste totally blocking it, luckily there was a turnoff right in front of them so I took it with a sharp turn and covered them with snow, I could have stopped before hitting them though but it annoyed the heck out of me, we no longer suffer from club med instructors in Wengen however as the Swiss Ski School now instructs them and they stop to the side of a piste, too many complaints/accidents with club med classes led to this being the case

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On a general note, along with children under the age of 14 now having to wear helmets in Italy, I understand that the Italian police now have powers to arrest/prosecute speeding skiers. Does anyone have any more info on this (like what constitutes speeding, what evidence is required, etc, etc)?

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Caspar, no, but I did notice at the weekend that our local hire shops (in France) have way more helmets for hire than last season.

After all it is free

It's been said before, but I'll say it again coz it's such an easy solution:

Introduce similar licencing requirements for skiing as for driving.

You don't get to ski at all until you've passed a written. You then have to wear an "L" plate (literally a large letter "L" loud and proud on both front and back of your jacket) until you've passed the practical. During your learner period you're only allowed a lift pass for specified easy slopes and even then you have to be accompanied at all times by an skier who's already got their skiing licence. You can reduce your learner period by undertaking approved lessons from a properly regulated lesson provider. You then have to pass a practical exan before you're allowed a skiing licence. Which needs to be renewed every 10 years.

No licence, no proof of insurance = no lift pass.

Sorted.

Snow police can then sit in known black spots, whir their bright lights and pull you over in order to issue "points" and/or remove your licence/lift pass as necessary for speeding or dangerous skiing. Toofy Grin

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Oh yeah - Snowboarding would require a separate licence.

Help!!

Speeding skiers and boarders, hit-and-runs, and the law ...

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