Swirly, sorry, but you still haven't got the idea. The edge swap comes when you essentially start skiing/boarding backwards, whereas what the OP is about is always travelling forwards. I don't see that being on the downhill edge is any different on a ski or a board - other than maybe a bit more difficult to balance (and if you're skiing one-footed then there's no difference at all) - it's still the inside edge of the carved turn, and the only issue is that you need enough speed to have something to push against without toppling over while completing the turn. And I do know what catching a downhill edge (i.e. the outside edge of the turn) entails - having executed that manoeuvre quite 'successfully' on skis more than once.
Look at the first of the links martski posted (i.e. the 20:45 one, not the 21:14). No edge change at all. Then look at the "720 on snow" clip that appears in the "related clips" - it's totally different thing, purely pivoted turns, and that's what you seem to be talking about. Yes what you're talking about is quite easy, but it's not the subject under discussion. Actually look at the "Craving 360 heelside" related link for someone (just about) doing what is being discussed on a board. (Edit: I see Axsman has got the idea.)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
GrahamN, I know exactly what you mean I'm just not entirely conviced it's possible on a board. I don't think the guy in Craving 360 heelside does it although he gets further than I think many do. That said I'm prepared to give it a go.
When I mentioned changing edges I didn't mean skidding the board round, as you say that's very easy. I'm sorry if this next bit comes across patronising, it's not meant to be just I'm not sure how much you know about boarding and it's something many boarders struggle to understand too. With strong legs it's possible to get a board on both edges at once, this is essential to proper carving e.g. when turning heelside to toeside a normal (uncarved) turn would have the board go flat as it points down the slope before engaging the toe edge, however, to carve the turn the board needs to stay on edge. To achieve this it's possible to use the tortional flex to get the front of the board onto the toe edge while the back remains on the heel edge. This leaves the nice thin line in the snow rather than the thin, thick, thin line left by the first turn I've described.
If these are taken to 360's the first method will have the boarder move down the slope while carrying out the manoeuvre, much like the guy in the 720 clip: while fun it's very easy. However, the second method would make the board turn all the way uphill in oppose to just pointing uphill. This is where I change edge to keep the board on it's uphill edge and carrying on round. The guy on skis keeps them one edge at this point, the boarder has his hand down (he changes edge just before 270 degrees) IMO without the hand down he would faceplant and I'm not convince he could make it all the way round even with more speed. However, like I said I'm prepared to give it a go and prove myself wrong.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Axsman wrote:
Swirly, I think this may be what GrahamN is referring to?
Isn't that guy in the video doing a full 360 on one edge? it looked like it to me?
Axsman, I think he changes at the top i.e if you call downhill 0 degrees he changes at 270 degrees. Unfortunately this is right at the end of the clip so it's hard to be certain, this is also the point where being on the downhill edge is most likely to end in tears.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Swirly, I confess to having no skill on a board (and not much on skis) so defer to your judgement
Swirly, feel free to patronise away to your heart's content...I know nothing about boarding other than what I see. OK, I see your point about the torsional flex and dual edge stuff. Still don't see where the edge change is required when carving a 360 - surely once you change the edge you're now turning in the other direction. Say coming down the fall line (facing to your right) then doing a heelside turn you start turning to the left/behind. You now say at some point (when you're pointing directly up the fall-line, or just after?) you move to the toe edge? As I see it that would then require the centre of a carved turn to move to the right/front - the direct opposite of where you're trying to go. If you still want to be turning to the left/behind that surely then requires the remainder of the turn to be skidded. Not sure how much further we should take this though as, as I say, I know nussing about boarding (even if I don't come from Barcelona )
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Swirly wrote:
Axsman, I think he changes at the top i.e if you call downhill 0 degrees he changes at 270 degrees. Unfortunately this is right at the end of the clip so it's hard to be certain, this is also the point where being on the downhill edge is most likely to end in tears.
OK, looking at it closely it does look like he finishes off the last 1/4 of the turn with a pivot, i.e. he's no longer carving. This one only really gets about half way around - I think he blows it by taking too sharp an angle on entry and so scrubs off a load of speed in the first 60 degrees of the turn, so has b-all left for the rest of it. So, it would seem that no a 360 carve is not easy on a board. Actually a few of the skier clips get to pretty much the same point and then stick in a quick pivot (or grind to a halt). That original clip of martski's is about the best - and even he's not got much angle/momentum for the last 60 degrees, and could be slipping a bit.
Did see an instructor in Flaine do one on skis once - about 8m radius and he essentially carved the outer ski only and used the inner one for support during the second half of the turn, so he could keep the tight radius without needing the speed required to support his weight at that edge angle.
After all it is free
After all it is free
GrahamN, I'm not sure I get you on this (not helped by me riding goofy), once you point uphill left and right have changed so your left turn becomes a right turn relative to the fallline. I'm now getting strange looks as I spin round on my chair pointing my feet in different directions I've had a nice 30 minutes looking at the videos on extremecarving.com though, none of them make it round, they just end up lying on the snow after getting halfway.
I wouldn't describe myself as a good boarder but I'm normally ok at this sort of thing Axsman, can have a laugh at my attempts on this at the EoSB anyway. Good luck to everyone in their attempts!
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Swirly, I always define a left/right turn with respect to the direction my skis are pointing. (Don't really have a convention for when riding switch though, basically as I hardly ever do it - because I'm crap at it). While I understand the problem of a downhill edge catch, I still don't see why you're so averse to riding the downhill edge, if you're carving. The only difference between riding the downhill edge prior to reaching the fallline or the uphill edge after coming out of it is that gravity is pulling you into the turn rather than balancing you against it - so you need a bit of speed and tightish arc to stay upright. The edge catch is only a problem if you're sliding the board/ski sideways - i.e. not carving - and the result is also the same if it's a board or a ski. One of the major differentiators between good and bad skiers is their ability (when carving) to get the skis engaged on their downhill edges before hitting the fall-line. If you manage it you're then accelerating into the turn and getting part of your turn done early, so it's a much faster and cleaner turn - it just takes a bit of commitment and control. You also see that in all the extreme carving clips - they change edges when in a traverse and are carving on the downhill edge for the first 1/4 of the turn.
I think there's a major difference in tactics between the 360 carve and the extreme carving stuff I've seen: in the former case you want to get as far through the curve as you can, whereas the latter you want to make as tight a turn as possible. So in the latter case you see a huge amount of snow chucked up - but that's all bleeding away energy so looks spectacular, but will result in slowing down very rapidly - not what you want for a 360. You see in the cases where they do make a good fist of it they all enter the turn very gently - keeping the speed up as much as possible. I think this applies equally to boards and skis. I think it may also probably help with trying to get the full 360 in, provided you have enough width of slope, to start the count at the edge change - i.e. when board/skis is pointing across the slope - as you're still accelerating at the start of the circle, and only have to make it back to facing across the fallline while in the carve. Moot point though, and maybe it'll make no difference.
Have fun trying.
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GrahamN wrote:
I still don't see why you're so averse to riding the downhill edge, if you're carving.
Because that's how I broke my nose!
I agree with all the points you make though. It's not so much getting on the downhill edge early, more staying on it for 180 degrees of the circle. Just wish I could go and try now though.
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Just got back from a week in Alpe D'Huez and was able to successfully carve 360s on my slalom skis given sufficient entry speed and a relatively flat area to do it. Probably did about an average 10m radius turn, tightening as the speed reduced. It was also easier on harder snow as I could load the tails without them slipping out and use that to get me through the third quarter when heading uphill.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
sorry but i am with Swirly on this. The guy on the board pulls out of the 360 attempt at 270 because this is where you need to change edge, basically you always ride a board on the up hill edge (toe edge and you look up the slope, heel edge and you look down the slope), and to do the 360 with out changing edges you need to finsish on your down hill edge, which perhaps is possible only if you try it on your toe edge and some how balance on your toe edge whilst facing down slope - maybe a bit like a ballet dancer (on your toe edge you are always normally facing up the slope).
Fundamental difference on skis is that your weight/body direction at 270 degrees is facing across the slope and you are able to gain balance by pushing your up hill ski edge in to the slope, on a board you are facing/leaning down the slope and you are also on your down slope edge which generally means disaster.
I think the best way to think about this is to try to work out how you would do it on one ski, and think about what happens at 270 degrees when the edge of the ski is down slope and your weight is/needs to be up the slope ?? broken ankle maybe??
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rayscoops wrote:
basically you always ride a board on the up hill edge (toe edge and you look up the slope, heel edge and you look down the slope),
As a beginner or low intermediate yes, but when carving (which is what this thread is all about) then this is clearly rubbish. See the first half of each turn in this clip - very obviously on the downhill edge between transition and hitting the fall-line (also see any of the 100s of clips with Extreme Carving in the title). The question in the OP was "have you pure carved a 360?", and Swirly said it was easy on a board. Simple geometry means that YOU CANNOT CARVE ON AN OUTSIDE EDGE, so if you are changing edges you are NOT doing what is being talked about. Fine, so if you change the question you then may get a different answer. Note Big G's citation of "ESF guy just layed it down and carved a perfect 360, with just enough momentum so that he popped back up and gently slid off towards the lift". No pictures to confirm that, but I'm quite ready to believe it was done right.
Quote:
Fundamental difference on skis is that your weight/body direction at 270 degrees is facing across the slope and you are able to gain balance by pushing your up hill ski edge in to the slope, on a board you are facing/leaning down the slope on you are also on your down slope edge which generally means disaster.
Rubbish - if you are on a downhill edge on skis you still have your CoM below the edge, and so will fall over in the same way if you don't have enough speed. The only difference on skis is that you have two of them, so you can help the balance by propping yourself up on the lower ski while the upper one is still carving, so can do it with less speed. Being on a downhill edge means disaster only if your dynamic balance point is below the support (i.e. you're going too slowly or not turning tightly enough), or if your ski/board (it applies equally to both) is also travelling downhill, i.e. not it the direction of the edge - but that's not carving.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
GrahamN, when boarding down the fall line there is a degree of flexibility with which edge you are on depending on balance etc., but as you go across the fall line twice (which is the key to doing a 360, once at the bottom of the 360 and once at the top of the 360) you have to change edge, which is why the guy in your clip when talking at the start is standing on his toe 'up-slope' edge - if he was on his heel down-slope edge he would fall over, simple ..... and to do a carved 360 starting on a heel edge, when you get to 270 you will be in the position that the guy is in, facing up the slope but on your heel (assuming no edge change), in which case you will fall on your @rse, the reverse applies if starting a 360 on the toe edge.
In comparing skis to a board your comment that the 'only difference is that you have two of them' is the key, having two edges in the snow completely changes the dynamics between skiing and boarding a 360, try it on one ski and you will understand it better.
The OP related to skiing a carved 360, and the equivalent on a board requires a change of edge or doing it on the flat where by 'up hill or down hill edge' is not an issue. The OP does not mention anything about not changing edges, and in snowboard terms a pure carve incorporates a change in edge, just like the guy is doing in your video clip - pure carving but changing edges - the basis of boarding - if he can not carve down the mountain without changing edge what chance has he in carving up the mountain for a 360 without changing an edge?
Alpine boards make it easier, perhaps possible even, because your are facing forward along the board in the same manner as a skier, rather than facing across the board. Try thinking about a mono-board with ski boot (and then spin the boots through 90 degrees) and maybe it will become clearer.
I think unless you have boarded this will be difficult to understand
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
GrahamN wrote:
Note Big G's citation of "ESF guy just layed it down and carved a perfect 360, with just enough momentum so that he popped back up and gently slid off towards the lift". No pictures to confirm that, but I'm quite ready to believe it was done right.
I reckon the guy did a 270 ish and rode off the the peak of the turn, rather than completely doing a 360 by ending up back where he started - I have seen loads of 270 turns and you either flop onto your face or you flatten your board out/ride out/change edge etc
getting close but it is an alpine board, and he does not end up back where he starts
I really don't get how you boarding guys are having so much trouble with simple dynamics. Of course you have to stand on an uphill edge when you're stationary - and just the same applies on skis. But that's not what we're talking about. Yes if you stop when you're facing up hill on a heel edge you will fall on your ar$e - and you've failed the task. And EXACTLY the same applies on skis.
Once again, it is a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY TO CARVE ON THE OUTSIDE EDGE of a turn, irrespective of whether it is a ski or board. That's what a sidecut means. The torsional trick Swirly talked about above is just something to do in the transition. If you change edge without switching the direction of turn then you are no longer carving. When the guy in the clip changes edges it is to change the direction of the turn - nothing to do with being on a single plank. I've done exactly that kind of line on a single ski (and of course two) and it's no different - you change edge to change the turn. The only difference if you're on one or two planks, or face along or across the planks is you may have to do different things with your body to achieve the balance change. But no I've not done a 360 on a single ski - but never tried to either.
"pure carving but changing edges - the basis of boarding" - NO!, it's the basis of carving, exactly the same principle on skis or boards.
"if he can not carve down the mountain without changing edge what chance has he in carving up the mountain for a 360 without changing an edge?"
complete non-sequitur. Carving down the mountain you link turns to travel in largely a single direction, with a degree of speed control. A 360 is a single turn.
That first link was one I linked to above, but we don't see him finish it off, so I doubt he actually completed it (actually we see him go flat right at the end). Please keep up That second one is the best yet, and no edge change - and note the important point that he's not tried turning too tight so no great plume of snow, which is spectacular but pi$$es away energy big time.
What I will conceed is that balancing on that downhill edge at the top of the turn may be a bit difficult if you're doing a heelside turn, as our legs are just not jointed that way. Wouldn't a toeside turn be easier?
This guy also manages it - just about holding onto it for the second half of the turn. No edge change. Does rather blow it by turning too tight and kick up too much snow to start with - but then that's probably constrained by the width of the piste.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The big difference is that on a snowboard you are facing the edge of the board, on skis and alpine boards you are facing in line with the edges which means you can lean from side to side to help balance on a down hill edge, just like the guy who sort of makes it on the alpine board (but he does not really do a circle as he seems to sort of traverse out of the loop), to do what he does on a snowboard I would be on my down hill toe edge trying to lean backwards and would not get enough counter balance up the slope, actually I am not even sure I could physically do it due to the stiffness of my boots. The fundamental physics of a board will make it possible in theory and i have never disputed this, but the mechanics of riding sideways to the edge and the lack of ability to lean up the slope (to apply the centripedal ? force needed to travel in a circle) on a down hill edge means that it is perhaps impossible to do a 360 carved circle on a board, definetely impossible on a heel and very unlikely on a toe edge
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rayscoops wrote:
I think the best way to think about this is to try to work out how you would do it on one ski, and think about what happens at 270 degrees when the edge of the ski is down slope and your weight is/needs to be up the slope ?? broken ankle maybe??
Why does your weight need to be up the slope? If you're pure carving, you'll be on the same edge all the way through the turn, and will be leaning into the turn whether it's uphill, downhill, across the hill. The key is having enough speed/momentum to be able to lean down the hill between roughly 235 and 315 degrees yet your centre of gravity want to carry on moving up the hill.
Now let's imagine splitting the turn into quarters. With enough speed, why is the bit between 270 degrees and 360 degrees any different from starting a turn from a flat cross-hill or even slightly uphill traverse by leaning downhill? I presume you agree you can turn by leaning downhill from such a flat traverse here, and in fact you'd have to to get the board/ski on its edge?
Doing the 360s this last week I was on the outside edge of my inside ski and the inside edge of my outside ski all the way round the turn. I'm sure I could have done it on just my outside ski and lifted up the inside ski or even taken it off and got round the 360 without breaking my ankle.
I get very confused with this uphill/downhill business. What's wrong with inside and outside (edges, or whatever)?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Sideshow_Bob, to stay upright on a board on an edge you need to transfer a force through your boot to that edge, and you do so by leaning up the slope (when traversing for arguments sake) or rocking from edge to edge when riding down a slope, but effectively it is the same principal. sometimes you can do this by bending your knees or pressing your feet like pedals, any way though in simple basic terms to ride on a heel edge you need the boot to be digging in to your calf (or you need to curl up your toes as a minimum), and to ride on a toe edge you need your boot to be digging in to you shin, the flexing of the boot (from calf or shin) in this manner transfers the force to the edge. When doing a 360 you simply end up on the wrong edge for the way you are facing, i.e. on a heel edge facing up the slope or on a toe edge facing down the slope, which is the complete reverse to mechanics of riding a board. To stay on that edge when you get to the top of the 'loop' of a 360 on the slope you need to lean up the slope, or push you knees up the slope, or stick your @rse up the slope, which is all effectively the same, but all that will do is push/rock you on to the other 'up slope' edge, if you do not 'lean' up the slope you will simply fall down the slope. Speed when trying a 360 probably helps, but if you go too fast you will skid out of the turn.
Quote : Now let's imagine splitting the turn into quarters. With enough speed, why is the bit between 270 degrees and 360 degrees any different from starting a turn from a flat cross-hill or even slightly uphill traverse by leaning downhill? I presume you agree you can turn by leaning downhill from such a flat traverse here, and in fact you'd have to to get the board/ski on its edge?
because as you go from 180 to 270 this is where you end up on the wrong edge
rob@rar, on a board I do not think you have an inside edge??
all the examples of videos on here are of people on alpine boards, which are not the same as snowboards as the rider is not on heel or toe edges, they are on edges along the sides of their feet (similar to skis), so that they do not have the problem of ending up on the wrong edge facing up/down the slope
come on guys get a grip, how difficult is it understand?? go draw some feet on a lolli-pop stick and work it through
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 30-03-08 18:24; edited 1 time in total
rob@rar, on a board I do not think you have an inside edge??
You have an edge which is nearer to the centre, or inside, of the arc you are following and an edge which is outside that: an inside edge, and an outside edge. Uphill and downhill are relative terms, inside and outside are absolute terms, regardless of skiing or boarding. The only difference is that when you are skiing you have two inside edges rather than the one you have on a board.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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rayscoops, A plank of wood with 2 edges is a plank of wood with 2 edges, regardless of whether you have 1 or 2 or face forwards or sideways the laws of physics are unchangeable, and the general mechanics etc governing planks of wood with 2 edges don't change either! To carve a turn you have to be on the inside edge from the start of the arc (this will be the downhill edge at the start of the turn whether skis or board) otherwise you ain't gonna stand a chance of carving. if you want to "pure-carve a 360" you must stay on the same edge (left or right edges of skis or heel or toe of board) to be able to continue to follow the same curve and thus stand a chance of closing up the 360. End of story
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar, ok, if you start on your heel edge as the inside edge of the arc, when you get to the top of the arc on the same inside edge, you are infact technically on the wrong edge to stay upright, you are on your heel but looking up the slope, whereas you need to be on your toe edge looking up the slope. Any border you ever see on his heel in this situation would be facing down the slope.
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rayscoops wrote:
rob@rar, ok, if you start on your heel edge as the inside edge of the arc, when you get to the top of the arc on the same inside edge, you are infact technically on the wrong edge to stay upright, you are on your heel but looking up the slope, whereas you need to be on your toe edge looking up the slope. Any border you ever see on his heel in this situation would be facing down the slope.
That might well be the case. I've never boarded so wouldn't know. But if what you say is correct it is impossible for anyone on a board to carve a turn into a complete circle, which surprises me.
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offpisteskiing wrote:
rayscoops, A plank of wood with 2 edges is a plank of wood with 2 edges, regardless of whether you have 1 or 2 or face forwards or sideways the laws of physics are unchangeable, and the general mechanics etc governing planks of wood with 2 edges don't change either! To carve a turn you have to be on the inside edge from the start of the arc (this will be the downhill edge at the start of the turn whether skis or board) otherwise you ain't gonna stand a chance of carving. if you want to "pure-carve a 360" you must stay on the same edge (left or right edges of skis or heel or toe of board) to be able to continue to follow the same curve and thus stand a chance of closing up the 360. End of story
yes, you are right, but to stay on an edge you need to put some force through your boot, and you can not put that force through the boots on a toe edge when looking down the slope or a heel edge looking up the slope - which is the situation you find yourself when doing a 360 staying on the same edge on a board
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rayscoops wrote:
yes, you are right, but to stay on an edge you need to put some force through your boot, and you can not put that force through the boots on a toe edge when looking down the slope or a heel edge looking up the slope - which is the situation you find yourself when doing a 360 staying on the same edge on a board
Why not? What about the forces at play from turning against the snow? Most of the forces I use when skiing are not generated by me putting pressure through my boots.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar, it is all to do with the fact that your feet are across the board and digging in a heel or toe edge. On a alpine board your are facing forward so you can lean your shoulder up the slope at the top of the curve to stay on the inside/down slope edge, on a snowboard your are facing the wrong way for the inside/up slope edge you are on, so unless you are the rubber man from the Fantastic Four or maybe 6 foot ten and bendy, it is nearly impossible
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rob@rar wrote:
rayscoops wrote:
yes, you are right, but to stay on an edge you need to put some force through your boot, and you can not put that force through the boots on a toe edge when looking down the slope or a heel edge looking up the slope - which is the situation you find yourself when doing a 360 staying on the same edge on a board
Why not? What about the forces at play from turning against the snow? Most of the forces I use when skiing are not generated by me putting pressure through my boots.
snowboarding is all about putting pressure on to the edges through the boots, it is why the bindings have a high back and why we always moan about heel lift.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rayscoops, OK, in which case I'm surprised to find that it is impossible to carve a full circle on a board.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar, maybe it is not 100% impossible, but it is pretty close to it. I have been trying to visualise riding on my toe edge but facing down the slope, and it just does not compute. It is impossible I would say riding on a heel edge looking up the slope becasue your knees only bend one way. To do a 360 circle would entail either of these scenarios. I would love to see a clip of a boarder (not alpine boarder or someone with their bindings facing along the board) doing it because it would be incredible
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Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
to stay on an edge you need to put some force through your boot, and you can not put that force through the boots on a toe edge when looking down the slope or a heel edge looking up the slope
OK so how do you start a normal carved turn then? As you are travelling across the slope out of the last turn then in order to start carving the next turn the plank (ski or board) must be tilted onto the new turning edge which at this point is the downhill edge (toe or heel or right or left).
Your argument would conclude that it is impossible to carve a 360 on a board which it is not. It isn't easy, the crux of the matter on skis or board is maintaining enough speed to maintain enough pressure against the edge to be able to keep balancing against it whilst maintaining the tilt.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rayscoops wrote:
yes, you are right, but to stay on an edge you need to put some force through your boot, and you can not put that force through the boots on a toe edge when looking down the slope or a heel edge looking up the slope - which is the situation you find yourself when doing a 360 staying on the same edge on a board
That's patently not true. Look at any snowboarder doing parallel slalom or carving on a hard board, they most certainly put force through the boots onto a toe edge when looking down the slope, that's how they carve a right turn when riding regular. Just how else would you carve such a turn? By leaning uphill? You can't do it when stood still or with very low speed, but you can do it when you have some speed.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rayscoops wrote:
yes, you are right, but to stay on an edge you need to put some force through your boot, and you can not put that force through the boots on a toe edge when looking down the slope or a heel edge looking up the slope - which is the situation you find yourself when doing a 360 staying on the same edge on a board
Do you think it's possible on the flat? Yes, the flat, let's forget completely about up and down. Let's say you've bombed it down onto a completely flat section and are carrying lots of speed and crank on a toe-side turn. Now there's no 'uphill' or 'downhill' edge, just a toe edge and a heel edge. Would you then be able to do a 360 degree carve turn? If you can do it on the flat, how steep does it need to be until you can't do it on the steep? One degree of steepness? Ten degrees of steepness? Where does that critical point lie?
to stay on an edge you need to put some force through your boot, and you can not put that force through the boots on a toe edge when looking down the slope or a heel edge looking up the slope
OK so how do you start a normal carved turn then? As you are travelling across the slope out of the last turn then in order to start carving the next turn the plank (ski or board) must be tilted onto the new turning edge which at this point is the downhill edge (toe or heel or right or left).
Your argument would conclude that it is impossible to carve a 360 on a board which it is not. It isn't easy, the crux of the matter on skis or board is maintaining enough speed to maintain enough pressure against the edge to be able to keep balancing against it whilst maintaining the tilt.
on skis you are facing in the direction you are moving, and you have two of them for balance, on a board you are facing either up hill or down hill and are on one edge - the wrong edge - for balancing your center of gravity, which counter acts the effect of (side cut generated) curve you are following on the board. I can ride in a straight line on one edge and negate the side cut of my board by moving my center of gravity slightly away from the arc the board wants to follow, so the board does not carve its arc.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rayscoops wrote:
come on guys get a grip, how difficult is it understand?? go draw some feet on a lolli-pop stick and work it through
Does a piece of paper count? As far as I can see it, the skier on one ski and the boarder differ only because the skier's foot points down the ski/board/piece of paper and the boarder across the board/piece of paper. Where the skier leans left or right, the boarder leans backwards or forwards.
yes, you are right, but to stay on an edge you need to put some force through your boot, and you can not put that force through the boots on a toe edge when looking down the slope or a heel edge looking up the slope - which is the situation you find yourself when doing a 360 staying on the same edge on a board
Do you think it's possible on the flat? Yes, the flat, let's forget completely about up and down. Let's say you've bombed it down onto a completely flat section and are carrying lots of speed and crank on a toe-side turn. Now there's no 'uphill' or 'downhill' edge, just a toe edge and a heel edge. Would you then be able to do a 360 degree carve turn? If you can do it on the flat, how steep does it need to be until you can't do it on the steep? One degree of steepness? Ten degrees of steepness? Where does that critical point lie?
now we are talking, on the flat it would be technically possible becasue you would not be on the wrong edge as there is no 'up slope/down slope' edge, but I would think that it would be difficult to get that inertia driven 'swoop' that get from a slope to complete the 360.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Sideshow_Bob wrote:
rayscoops wrote:
come on guys get a grip, how difficult is it understand?? go draw some feet on a lolli-pop stick and work it through
Does a piece of paper count? As far as I can see it, the skier on one ski and the boarder differ only because the skier's foot points down the ski/board/piece of paper and the boarder across the board/piece of paper. Where the skier leans left or right, the boarder leans backwards or forwards.
that is exactly the point, on a board you can not be on a down slope/inside edge and lean up the slope because you will simply change edges to the up slope/ outside edge becasue you boot is rigidly fixed across the board.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Sideshow_Bob wrote:
rayscoops wrote:
yes, you are right, but to stay on an edge you need to put some force through your boot, and you can not put that force through the boots on a toe edge when looking down the slope or a heel edge looking up the slope - which is the situation you find yourself when doing a 360 staying on the same edge on a board
That's patently not true. Look at any snowboarder doing parallel slalom or carving on a hard board, they most certainly put force through the boots onto a toe edge when looking down the slope, that's how they carve a right turn when riding regular. Just how else would you carve such a turn? By leaning uphill? You can't do it when stood still or with very low speed, but you can do it when you have some speed.
you can not do it as you put the board through 90 degrees to the fall line looking up the slope on a heel edge (for example) which is what you need to do to complete a 360, but you can do it when you point the board parallel to the fall line and your are switching from edge to edge across the piste, which is what happens when carving.
just extrapolate a carved snowbaord (not alpine board) turn (from the snowbaord video clip)and you will see that the boarder will be on the wrong edge for the way he is tending to lean.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
in this clip - watch what happens at the very end of it, he almost tries the beginning of a 360 but your can see that on his toe edge he will simply fall over on to his face if he continues it through
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar, actually every single pressure or edged turn you make is all about putting pressure on the edges through your boots - there's no other way to transfer the forces between your body and the snow (since handstands don't work too well ).
rayscoops, look again at this clip, he's doing exactly what you are saying is impossible to visualise - and the comments below it are all saying "so what 's the big deal, this is just snowboarding". And I've seen plenty like him too. And there are hundreds of clips like this one. Maybe this is what you call an alpine board, but the bindings are mounted about 45 degrees from the board direction of travel so there is definitely a toeside and a heelside, which blows your balance arguments out of the water. He is using hard boots though. Which I assume is the same for us - if you want performance from your plank(s) then use performance gear, rather than something sloppy.
Sideshow Bob wrote:
Now let's imagine splitting the turn into quarters. With enough speed, why is the bit between 270 degrees and 360 degrees any different from starting a turn from a flat cross-hill or even slightly uphill traverse by leaning downhill? I presume you agree you can turn by leaning downhill from such a flat traverse here, and in fact you'd have to to get the board/ski on its edge?
Exactly. Carve from traverse to fall line and you are on the downhill edge, independent of whether you have doen the previous 270 degrees or not. And the bit from 180 to 270 is just the same, but slowing down rather than speeding up.
If you've never ridden a downhill edge then you've never linked carved turns - quite simple, it's simply geometry. Maybe all this is just saying you're not as good a boarder as you think you are .
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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I've had a nice 30 minutes looking at the videos on extremecarving.com though, none of them make it round, they just end up lying on the snow after getting halfway.
complete non-sequitur. Carving down the mountain you link turns to travel in largely a single direction, with a degree of speed control. A 360 is a single turn.
