 Poster: A snowHead
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davidof,  How absolutely terrifying.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle, I smell a rat here, the lift in question IS due for replacement this summer. Could it be possible insurance may now be obliged to assist the financing? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It is the window behind that gave way, still if you are sitting calmly like this delightful family there shouldn't be a problem. According to the prosecutor a gendarm pushed on the window of a telecabine which popped out, he then repeated this test on another cabin and the window also popped out.
tbc
http://picasaweb.google.com/jfetdmorin/WeekendChamonixAout2007/photo#5107184426538498994
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 3-03-08 19:21; edited 3 times in total
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davidof, Fair enough.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
Are you sure bus windows are burstable, as I don't have my bus pass yet I must admit I rarely use public transport but when I have they always seem to have little spiked hammers to break through the windows.
Plus telecabine doors can always be forced open. |
Yes, you are right about the hammer - but buses have glass windows and gondolas have perspex windows so the two aren't really comparable.
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davidof, Thanks for the pic. The chaps death now appears even more horrific I had imagined a gondola with much smaller windows. 
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boredsurfin, It's almost the exact same spot. Slightly lower, this photo if the reports are correct.
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Maybe a tragic accident but if you just sat there you'd be ok with the door open... some people do it to vent some gondolas anyway..
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Even if you took away the windows and the door, once inside the gondola you'd still have to be trying to fall out, either that or helped out. Do chairlifts have windows and doors? (bubbles don't count!)
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davidof, Is that minidavidof 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| davidof wrote: |
| I've just seen the state prosecutor on the TV who looks very unhappy. He confirms what I posted above. They've tested some of the cabins and they are death traps. |
I'm surprised (in line with Winterhighland). The first few years I used ski gondolas in the early 1960s they had no windows - they were open skeletal frame structures with a roof.
It's strange if a window can pop out, but it's not there to stop you falling out, unless you could normally fall against it with the risk of pushing it out and falling out of the cabin.
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David Goldsmith,
Anyone who has been in Gondolas that looked a bit old should have the sense to realise not to lean on the things ( doors/windows )...just in case...!!
You just wouldn't would you..in normal circumsatnces...??
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You know it makes sense.
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| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| davidof, Is that minidavidof |
No just some mum and kid looking very happy to be riding the Brevent - for the purposes of illustration.
I don't really believe it is a "death trap" gondola but given that they have been teenagers and Brits over the course of the last couple of days it seemed to fit in with the "journalistic" license surrounding the story.
yes it is very worrying (devastating for the man's friends and family) but you'd also have to be trying quite hard to fall out even if the window went.
Still this is really bad
http://skirando.com/images/auvergne/mont-dore-telepherique.jpg
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 3-03-08 21:02; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The gondola in question appears to be for sitting passengers. I can't remembered what it is like but to fall out of the windows one has to stand up first and then jump out.
The window may be easily pop out by a modest force but to say it is a death trap would suggest its intention is to safely contain passengers wanting to get out by force.
Chairlifts don't have windows. Bubbles if fitted can be rotated away so on chairlifts they are all death traps presumably.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Babelfish part translation of David Goldsmith's link
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| The prosecutor insisted on the "abnormal" behaviors of the victim and his three friends of childhood, who took the telpher carrier passably éméchés and who chahuté upright, whereas the payment obliges the user to remain sitted. "It is obvious that if one sat normally and that one is made transport normally there is no reason that such an accident occurs", underlined Mr. Belin. |
The photos in the above link also show only the top half of the gondola has a Perspex window. Earlier photos from davidof indicate the mother and child were in seated position.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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More detail from http://www.ledauphine.com with some more accusations
Apologies for the Google translation.
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| Quote: |
Ier afternoon, while the three friends surfer victim of a fatal fall 25 metres from the gondola of Planpraz were released, the scenario "human" drama was established, according to the prosecutor, Bonneville, Michel Belin.
These four childhood buddies Amiens (Sum) redescendaient, éméchés, Brevent ski area. Their blood alcohol level was about 1 gram per liter. They stood in the cabin and had "made fools" in the words of the prosecutor. Emportés festive by their behaviour, they would have urinated in the bubble. The two occupants who were near the window opposite the door, solid jig (1 metre 80 to 80 kilos), were backed against the wall, which gave way under their weight. One of them, Antoine Laurent, 32 years old, was making a fatal fall, while her boyfriend Frederick, it has been selected by their feet thanks to the intervention of his brother. Yesterday morning at 9 am, a formal situation of the accident was conducted on the spot, in the presence of three survivors, tormented by doubt. The prosecution felt that they have been guilty of in rising in the cabin, in violation of security regulations, it did not warrant a more thorough search of their responsibility. And to raise the penalty that is insurmountable them from seeing their friend.
However, investigators are interested in the structure of the cabin whose plexi-glass, supported by a joint, has descellée. "The problem of the solidity of the structure arises, it being understood that in the normal use of these cabins, we must not rest against the walls. This raises the question of the possible liability to be linked to a defect in this cab, "says the prosecutor. For Monday, as part of the recovery, a policeman of the criminal investigation unit has practiced two tests on similar bubbles. After mild pressure on the upper part, twice the plexiglass gave way.
Also, a criminal investigation against persons unknown for manslaughter should be open today. An expert on resistance of materials will be appointed. The judge in charge of the dossier should assess the responsibility of the manufacturer booths renewed in 1992, the CWA Switzerland, which is considered a reference in the middle and even the operator of the aircraft, the Compagnie du Mont Blanc. "Only experts can say whether there was a risk associated with a defect in design or a lack of maintenance," tempers the prosecutor, adding: "It is clear that if we are sitting normally, there is no reason that such an accident to happen. "
The Office of lifts (GRID), supervisory authority, was presented with the conclusions of the investigators, and administrative expertise should be conducted to determine whether there is any danger to other users of the gondola, which has worked yesterday throughout the day. |
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boredsurfin, I started reading it and had to reality check, google translation sucks. I'm off to make fools.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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boredsurfin, bearing in mind the pain of understanding English leagalese, I am not surprised, particularly if there are legal consequences in getting any translation wrong.
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achilles, It was French legaleses into English legalese Fortunately a family friend is a Notaire Public. So the work was done over here at mates rates (well not the normal £195.00 per hour!)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, always nice to read google translation, means I'll have work for a good while to come 
boredsurfin, achilles, there can be significant legal and liability consequences in getting any translation wrong - especially legal texts. That's why nowadays translators typically have 5+ years training. The EU requires their legal translators to have a degree in two languages and a law degree before they're even let near a text
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While it certainly appears that these guys were acting really quite stupidly, it is not that difficult to think of situations in which one might fall against the window with "mild pressure", as the translation puts it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
SMALLZOOKEEPER, always nice to read google translation, means I'll have work for a good while to come
boredsurfin, achilles, there can be significant legal and liability consequences in getting any translation wrong - especially legal texts. That's why nowadays translators typically have 5+ years training. The EU requires their legal translators to have a degree in two languages and a law degree before they're even let near a text |
and apparently a pretty boring job too - my brothers girlfriend was one and she found it so tedious that she gave it up.
In my work, I see a few French contracts each year and our legal dept. told me I'd be looking at about £15K - 20K for a full legal translation of an average 40 page document. As you say, the consequences of getting something wrong are too big for a company the size of the one I work for so that's why it gets paid.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Chamonix's lift company issued a preliminary statement on 5 March giving causes of the accident:
http://www.compagniedumontblanc.fr/docs/COMMUNIQUE_PLANPRAZ_050308.PDF
They state that the passengers "may" have contravened regulations - which they say are posted in each cabin - by standing up. They say the windows cannot be classified as safety components, and are for "protection from the outside". The statement implies that at least two passengers were "leaning with their backs to the cabin's side windows".
There is an ongoing judicial enquiry.
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P.S. Of course, all this is quite interesting in relation to what davidof reported on 3 March:
| Quote: |
| I've just seen the state prosecutor on the TV who looks very unhappy. He confirms what I posted above. They've tested some of the cabins and they are death traps. |
As far as I know, the lift company was cleared to resume operation of the lift the next day, so it'll be interesting to know if the prosecutor will be in conflict with the company's statement above.
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You know it makes sense.
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David Goldsmith, Thanks for posting that link which is most informative, interesting that they felt the need to write it in English rather than a translation from the French.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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This is going to be a very interesting one for the safety authorities to rationalise. I suspect that the manufacturers of a skyscraper window (and most particularly the beading that holds it in the frame) are required to ensure that it won't burst outwards when someone leans on it.
There's another consideration which hasn't been discussed so far: if someone pushes out the window from a gondola it might land on someone below and kill them, whereas the person in the gondola who pushed it out might be unaffected.
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Poster: A snowHead
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This photo from davidof's link show apparently the inside of the cable with a child sitting next to the windows alleged could drop off if lean against it with "small" pressure.
For whatever reason or excuse the link, as posted by David Goldsmith, suggests that the French authority now regards the victim not sitting down as a violation of the safety procedure.
This may be a valid point. When one is sitting down the person's weight can only act vertically downward. In a stand-up position and leaning against a window then there is a horizontal force acting on the windows to push it outward, a condition not included in the design and manufacture of the gondola.
From the photo it appears the window is being held in position by a rubber insert jam tight between the window pane and the gondola metal frame. Rubber materials degrade with time if exposed to ultraviolet light. Just ask any car enthusiast who run and collect vintage cars and he/she would testify. I believe many older cars, vans and buses had such window fitting too. It may be still used on some current train and bus windows. The one on car used to have a bead to jam a purposely groove in the middle of the rubber tight. To remove the window all one needed to do was to remove the bead to slacken the rubber insert.
May be the next time we walk into a gondola, a bus, a train or a car try to push the window outward to see if it is safe?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| saikee wrote: |
| In a stand-up position and leaning against a window then there is a horizontal force acting on the windows to push it outward, a condition not included in the design and manufacture of the gondola. |
How do you know that?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| richmond wrote: |
| saikee wrote: |
| In a stand-up position and leaning against a window then there is a horizontal force acting on the windows to push it outward, a condition not included in the design and manufacture of the gondola. |
How do you know that? |
Because the French authorities said as much in the comments noted above? This, for example:
They state that the passengers "may" have contravened regulations - which they say are posted in each cabin - by standing up. They say the windows cannot be classified as safety components, and are for "protection from the outside". The statement implies that at least two passengers were "leaning with their backs to the cabin's side windows".
Whether or not that is a satisfactory design is another question altogether.
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saikee, richmond raises a very valid point, have you actually seen the design specification for these particular gondolas, or any others ? As a mechanical engineer I would assume that a certain amount of force was allowed for in the design just to prevent windows simply popping off if nothing else.
Now as to weather or not the windows were designed to take the load applied by a person falling against them, I have no knowledge but I doubt it. However unless there are signs in each gondola specifically instructing users to stay seated whilst the gondola doors are closed they could just possibly be open to prosecution
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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richmond & D G Orf,
If you compare the window pane fixing of a bus and that from a aircraft you will see the rubber bead in the bus is not "sized". It may take some force to pop a window open on a bus but that is not a "measurable" force one can formulate in a design like a design wind speed or a certain percentage of g-force in a seismic event.
A person lean against a window can try hard to dislodge it. Such vandalism is not a routine design consideration. An aircraft the window has to withstand a pressure difference and so the design force selected, from design pressure x area, can be used to determine the fixings.
I have not seen the calculation but deduce it from the report, based on a sitting down position there should be no lateral force in the gondola until it swings sideway.
Many things in life are not always deisgned with fixed targets but arranged and put together in accordance to "good engineering practice" that has been known to work well in practice. Until evidence shows such good engineering practice to be unsatisfactory it may continue to be adopted without change. We can expect the gondola company will take note of this event and may re-assess its design. However if the gondola has not been designed with occupants in stand-up positions then people not sitting down but leaning against the windows do so at their own risk. Whether a certain amount of lateral force has been allowed in the design is immaterial.
If the window has been designed to withstand the breaking out force then the material may have to be thicker and has safety glass property like a car windscreen or an aircraft window. If the window is so strong that a person cannot break out from the inside then it is unlikely a rescue worker can break into it from outside in an event of a malfunction/emergency when a staionary gondola hanging in the mid air. In such a case the gondola company may be sued if the occupants could not be rescued.
I don't know if there is instruction inside the gondola or at the queuing point to instruct the users to sit down inside the godola but ignorance is not a valid defence.
I am sure there is also no instruction telling the occupants to vandalise the gondola or urinate its interior yet there are people seem to do it any way.
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| Quote: |
It may take some force to pop a window open on a bus but that is not a "measurable" force one can formulate in a design like a design wind speed or a certain percentage of g-force in a seismic event.
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Actually it is a measurable force, even if a window is just held in by a rubber seal the manufacturer of that seal will have calculated how much resistance the seal will provide, knowing that value plus the dimensions of the window you can then come up with the force in Newtons required to force the window out of the seal, the difference between a bus and an aircraft is that the aircraft windows have to cope with massive pressure differences between the inside and outside atmospheres and also significant temperature variations between inside and outside
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D G Orf,
I agree the force can be measured if one bothers to test it but are you aware any of such type of windows, say in a car, has a resisting force quoted by a manufacturer?
If I have to make an educated guess I would say the gondola has to be designed withstand a certain wind speed and so that pressure times the windw area will be the design force that must be resisted by the window seal blowing from the outside. There is little justification to design any pressure exerting from the inside. Whatever the resistance the window seal can resist stand-up skiers leaning heavily against it could be just incidenta.
I can't remember the shape of the window but if it is a bubble then the window may be able to work as an arch to withstand a high external force but relatively weak in resisting an internal force, say by one poking it from the inside. This is because the rubber seal may be in compression against a horizontal force from the outside but in tension against an internal force. The rubber may have material strength strong enough to withstand the tension but the grip between the rubber and the window pane may pull out. This is just a speculation serving as a reminder when an eqipment isn't used as intended then strange behaviours could happen.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 8-03-08 11:49; edited 1 time in total
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saikee, the window fitting is clearly designed to resist some sideways force, if only to prevent them from falling out when someone breathes on them. We don't know whether the windows are designed to resist the force of someone breathing on them, or the force of a herd of buffalo crashing into them; I'm guessing somewhere in between. What is of interest is exactly where inbetween, a matter on which SFAIK we have no information.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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saikee, I reckon you're right. It's a standard CWA gondola design (which, from memory, is called an 'Omega'), which has concave (from the inside) windows, so that would put some focus on the way the edges of the windows are sealed - if outward pressure from the cabin is considered a safety factor.
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saikee, it's usually the seal manufacturer that will quote a force required to overcome the resistance of the seal, however I have no way of knowing what specifications were used in the design, if it had be myself doing the design I'd have probably designed the windows so that they could take the impact of a backpack hitting them as someone sat down but I probably wouldn't have thought to make them strong enough to withstand the kind of forces involved in a mild brawl
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