 Poster: A snowHead
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My Kjus gear is excellent.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Got some hard shell gear this season (North Face Free Thinker) as previous insulated kit is a bit too big for me (anyone want to buy a nice Vist ski suit in red, size large?). Impressed with the Free Thinker jackets and pants: lightweight, comfortable and I presume good in poor conditions. I can decide how many layers to have underneath the hardshell, so getting the temperature right has been easy so far this season.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Insulated Goretex XCR jacket for me, with lightweight Merino wool base and mid-layers underneath. Seems to work fine from -20 to 0. Also fully waterproof and warm when used at home as a winter jacket. However, I do use softshells for DRY winter mountain biking because they do breath better than hardshells and biking is much more sweaty than skiing! But I use a Goretex Paclite shell for WET mountain biking, as I find softshells just don't cut it in those conditions. Obviously the last bit is not so important for skiing only use.
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uktrailmonster, Merino itches. Well, it does on me...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've just been to look at my 2nd hand Spyder Venom jacket - this has a waterproof/windproof outer shell and just an inner layer of breathable fabric to make it comfortable to wear - but no insulation. Is this a hard shell?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Got some hard shell gear this season (North Face Free Thinker) |
I really like this jacket, but can't justify the price at the moment.
Cheers to whoever linked to the Haglöfs website - I'm really liking the look of their shells.
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Fergus, I ended up with two jackets (it's a long story  ); one bought on Ebay (this season's with the Goretex ProShell) and one from the North Face outlet store in Bicester (last season's with Goretex XCR). Paid the same price, £225, for each of the jackets, which was considerably cheaper than the retail price. Maybe give the outlet store a call to see if they'll have any more in?
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I've just been to look at my 2nd hand Spyder Venom jacket - this has a waterproof/windproof outer shell and just an inner layer of breathable fabric to make it comfortable to wear - but no insulation. Is this a hard shell? |
Yes, it's a Hard Shell Jacket, so you'll need a Fleece under it on cold days.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, as regards your other jacket - if you don't know it is a soft shell, it isn't. You were describing an ordinary non-shell insulated ski jacket.
Shells are single thickness of material - either of goretex or something similar (hard shell) or conduit or something similar (soft shell).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| megamum wrote: |
| I am unlike some other mums |
minimums for instance 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stoatsbrother, Then that must be what I have, an ordinary non-shell insulated ski jacket then - I bet a lot of folk ski in them. They seem perfectly serviceable items of clothing that seem to do what they say on the labels. They also seem perfectly able to command the sort of prices that these bonefide hard and soft shell jackets do. They mostly seem to have breathable liners and insulation, often having goretex in them, with waterproof technical outer fabrics, and lightweight technical insulation, they often have fully taped seams and heat dumping vents that can be opened, as well as hoods and snow skirts and all the periferal nicities such as good pocket space, lift pass holders, goggle cloths, electronics pockets etc. This is not a supposed list - I have spent probably more time than I should checking out what looks good value in TX Maxx and although you get all sorts to look through it can be an education at the same time. When this sort of jacket appears so serviceable for its intended use I'm surprised that people on here make so much out of these hard and soft shell solutions. Or am I missing something?
Re: Minimums - precisely!! 
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| Megamum wrote: |
| When this sort of jacket appears so serviceable for its intended use I'm surprised that people on here make so much out of these hard and soft shell solutions. Or am I missing something? |
It's not a big deal, just different approaches to doing the same job (keeping dry, from the inside and the outside, and warm). Wear what you feel comfortable in providing it does the basics of dry and warm, plus enough stowage for whatever bits and bobs must be carried. There's no one "right solution"; it's just personal choice.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Tue 15-01-08 21:42; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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| Megamum wrote: |
When this sort of jacket appears so serviceable for its intended use I'm surprised that people on here make so much out of these hard and soft shell solutions. Or am I missing something?
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Yup - different strokes for different folks!
Soft shell is relatively new. Both hard and soft shell jackets have advantages and disadvantages over the more traditional type. For me the advantages are:
1. Compact - folds up smaller for packing.
2. Temperature control - more layers underneath for cold days, for very warm days, it might just be a T-shirt, but you're not going to be baking.
3. When you have layered up underneath, you don't resemble Bibendum, but can maintain your racing-snake physique.
4. Quick drying/easier cleaning - no waiting for a quilt to dry.
Disadvantages:
1. On very cold days (>-25C), you need lots of layers
2. Tend to have fewer internal pockets (but if you wear a gillet underneath, you'll have more)
(that's my reasoning why I have a shell at the minute. Who knows what I'll get next, I'm always ready to change my mind based on my desires/requirements)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, Fair points and probably 50% of new trends in ski gear have a touch of emperors-new-clothes about them.
WTFH has it right as far as I am concerned, the ability to put a soft-shell gilet in a pack (or locker) and not to be wearing a fat insulated jacket open to the waist on hot days (bumps in the sun for instance - or skinning up a hill) is a real advance. As your skiing gets more high energy and the environments higher and more variable you may find you need different gear - but what you have obviously suits you fine.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I am a big hardshell fan as I often need a full weatherproof covering in generally warm weather. I just updated my 18 yr old Berghaus Goretex with a Mountain Equipment Changabang jacket and I can't rate it highly enough. Short waist so it doesn't get caught up in a climbing harness, masive pit zips so great venting under high level activity. I do tend to ask a lot from a garment though, so it's really not worth paying for features that you would hardly ever use.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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While we are on the subject of layers am I supposed to wear the stockings, suspenders and bra over or under the base layer?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DB, under would be such a waste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DB, Knickers over suspenders always 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Have boarded in Gore-tex coats (softshell and normal) with layered fleeces etc underneatha nd was as warm as toast. Use an insulated jacket now that seems to do the trick. In any case, just wear some layers and if you get hot, take a small backpack and stash a layer or two in that - you can always put them on again if you need to.
Did board for a coiuple of days in a Berghaus Gore-tex softsehll and it was amazingly good. It just didn't have a snow skirt so my pants and t-shirt were always wet. Other than that, softshell seems to be pretty good. 
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As an old fashioned low tech solution I still wear a Buffalo big face shirt (pertex and pile) under the Goretex in bad weather. The shirt on it's own without base layer is warm and dry down to high winds with approx -5C still air temp. I just love Buffalo type garments, a little heavy but great for cold and wet activities where you can't predict how or where you will end up.
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Scarpa, I used to use my Trax Buffalo-a-like pile and pertex top for skiing. Snow used to stick to the inside of the fleece and then drip on me when I went inside.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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nessy, The big face goes underneath the crotch (I can feel the gasps of excitement amongst female mountaineers from here... what do you mean by 'the tumbleweed is rolling'?) so there are no gaps for extra snow ballast to accumulate. I only wear it on it's own when hiking or climbing though, when skiing in very cold temps I put the salopettes under and hardshell over it (great wicking).
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| I am a big hardshell fan as I often need a full weatherproof covering in generally warm weather. I just updated my 18 yr old Berghaus Goretex with a Mountain Equipment Changabang jacket and I can't rate it highly enough. Short waist so it doesn't get caught up in a climbing harness, masive pit zips so great venting under high level activity. I do tend to ask a lot from a garment though, so it's really not worth paying for features that you would hardly ever use. |
I looked at this jacket too, but as you say, it's too much for me to pay if I'm not gettin full use of it's features.
The Changabang isn't 'ski specific' is it? Does it come with a powder-skirt?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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powder skirts are only necessary if you spend a lot of time bum sledging
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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.......
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| As an old fashioned low tech solution I still wear a Buffalo big face shirt (pertex and pile) under the Goretex in bad weather. The shirt on it's own without base layer is warm and dry down to high winds with approx -5C still air temp. I just love Buffalo type garments, a little heavy but great for cold and wet activities where you can't predict how or where you will end up. |
I have one of these too. The original soft shell, long before the term was invented. Perfect for damp conditions or in varying temperatures - when worn next to the skin as intended, the vents really do work!
It used to be my standard skiing under-shell garment but I tend not to wear mine now unless I am expecting cold and wet conditions as these days I try not to look like the mountaineering bum that I used to be, and they do tend to have that look about them. I also gave up using the crotch strap, partly due to abuse from peers about it being my "gimp suit" and partly due to the fact that the strap always seemed to be wanting to head north.
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You know it makes sense.
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Arno, I agree. Also helps to have a high-waist ski trousers and not the low-hanging sloppy boarder gear to cover the legs and bum. How exactly one can ski with trousers that have lower cut than my jeans is beyond me. No wonder that they then compensate by wearing a skirt as well.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think the original poster did not mean softshell by the wikipedia definition since the two jackets he mentioned were both waterproof. This style of softshell jacket is meant for continuous activity and I wonder if they may not suit resort skiing so much where you may spend more time sitting on the lift than being active.
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Poster: A snowHead
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nessy,
Valid point there are jackets with a softshell material that have a waterproof membrane. The terms "Hardshell" and "Soft shell" seem to be merging together as hardshells are becoming 'softer' and more fexible whereas some softshells are waterproof (and/or windproof). When comparing a softshell jacket that is neither waterproof or windproof with a hardshell I'd always go hardshell (if I could only choose one) as this type of softshell won't be suitable for all conditions. IMO a jacket made of a softshell material might be a suitable alternative to a hardshell if it has a waterproof membrane.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think the general point which can be made here is that high quality in either soft or hardshell equals, unfortunately, high price. As for the choice between the two, the evolution as DB proposes, seems to lead to something of softer than the current hardshells. I still suggest that in 95 % of active skier cases the current top-range softshell is more comfortable than the (most likely more expensive) top-range hardshell. But then again, that is matter of personal choice and appreciation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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How many layers exactly are you wearing with just a soft shell or a goretex outer layer? When I was stood on the continental divide at -20, I was bitterly cold. I had on 3 layers and a ski jacket.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Fergus wrote: |
| The Changabang isn't 'ski specific' is it? Does it come with a powder-skirt? |
Yes it does, I got one last year in the sales. Will field test for you next week 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB, yes... The commitment I can see here for people to sacrifice their perfectly adjusted daily lives in cities, towns and villages in order to go to fresh Alpine air to test various gear extensively, is amazing. I really wonder those who claim that the modern European is a selfish animal who does not care for its co-humans [apologies for Martin Lukesism].
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I have a Columbia soft shell for warmer days and it is just beautiful to ski in. I sometimes find myself just gently stroking it.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| I sometimes find myself just gently stroking it. |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| I have a Columbia soft shell for warmer days and it is just beautiful to ski in. I sometimes find myself just gently stroking it. |
Do you just wear your ski jacket while "stroking it" or do you wear your ski boots as well?
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| Fergus wrote: |
| The Changabang isn't 'ski specific' is it? Does it come with a powder-skirt? |
Yes it does, I got one last year in the sales. Will field test for you next week |
Not only that but the ski skirt zips out if you don't need it.
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FAQ
