 Poster: A snowHead
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| Jono wrote: |
| Your first picture and your last one, you look to be in the EXACT same position, it almost looks photoshopped. |
It wasn't. At least I was consistent, eh?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ssh, In the first weeks of learning to ski we were always told to throw our arms forward if our balance wasn't forward enough. This never helped me. I had an Austrian instructor who told me to keep my arms like yours in picture 2. It transformed my skiing. Amongst other things it kept my body 'quieter' and taller.
My main fault is my inside leg - I don't have my ankle/knee bent far enough up the hill so it looks weak. The bend of the ankle it that direction feels awkward to me. I do the exercise pushing my knee with the opposite hand and this helps.
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erica2004, throwing your arms forward can actually force you back, since folks often shove out their behinds to compensate! 
I really like the mantra for the hands and arms that I learned from Bob Barnes: elbows in front of the spine, hands wider than the elbows. Also, I think of the hands and arms as simply aiding balance, much like they would on a balance beam or a tightrope. This thinking helps a lot...
Skied a bit again today. My compatriot got something that might pass for video, but it's really difficult to see. I'll work on getting some more soon...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ssh,
nice skiing
I'm not confident in this observation so I'll ask a question -
In shots 1 and 4 do you think that your hip and upper body are just a little too far inside the turn? Just a little banked? I think I tend to look a bit like that when I'm rusty and getting more "c" shaped is one of the things I work on. I may be on the wrong track.
J
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jedster, interesting observation! I think it's mixed with my upper body being too rotated into the turn (which is the root cause here). But, that doesn't mean your observation is inaccurate! One of the more difficult challenges in analysing skiing is working our way through to the root cause.
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ssh, side question, explain why hands outside elbows?
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comprex, a more natural, balanced-enhancing position. It also tends to counter my kind of bad movement (crossing the hands in front of the body, which contributes to upper-body rotation). Think about a tightrope walker... would they keep their hands in front of their body (inside their elbows)?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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comprex, I thought his hands were OK. Surely hands either in line or inside the elbows would cause a rather "pinched" and "square" position? Check out Ali Ross' hands in the carving thread! Or Bodes.
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easiski, so did I. And I did look at the ARpic. It's what prompted me to ask.
I am merely wondering whether an inline position has a dynamic liability as well as the static lateral balance one. It does have, perhaps, a dynamic advantage: more range of compensatory motion when in flailing mode.
Funny you should mention 'pinched'. I'm ready to put the question another way: is more angulation or extension available if hands outside elbows?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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comprex and easiski, are you saying you thought my hands were ok? Or someone else's?
I'm not clear what you mean by "I am merely wondering whether an inline position has a dynamic liability as well as the static lateral balance one.", comprex. Can you help me with that?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ssh, yessir, thought hands OK in all except bottom pic, and then an effect not a cause.
Having the hands out gives one static lateral balance. Undisputed.
Do we derive position feedback for the shoulders and elbows from the hands, so that having them in is like cutting a cat's whiskers short?
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| comprex wrote: |
| ssh, yessir, thought hands OK in all except bottom pic, and then an effect not a cause. |
Proof the static pictures don't tell the whole story! The in-and-out of the hands (compare frame 1 to 2 or 2 to 4) causes shoulder rotation which applied too much rotary to the skis... Weems helped me a bunch with this on Sunday, and I can't wait to get out to ski again (and, hopefully, get a few more pictures). Perhaps this Sunday...
| comprex wrote: |
Having the hands out gives one static lateral balance. Undisputed.
Do we derive position feedback for the shoulders and elbows from the hands, so that having them in is like cutting a cat's whiskers short? |
I think we do lose some feedback (compare balance with the hands out to balance with them held in). I also think we lose an ability to have minor movements create major effects. It's like a lever. Hands held out and moved a small amount can quickly bring us back into balance, whereas hands held in require much larger movements and may in turn cause movements in our upper-body that have effects we don't want.
In my case, the hand movement is all habit. It was bad coaching years ago when I was racing. We needed to pull our arms past the (bamboo) poles in a course. But, the "cool guys"  on the team rounded out the arms and pulled the hands across in front of us. Now I'm paying for that bad habit! It's way better than it used to be, but still needs play... so, I guess I have to go play some more. Perhaps I'll test some skis while I'm at it... 
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You know it makes sense.
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Lately, we've been told to drop our hands by our sides, move them forward and then out a bit. this results in a comfortable and loose extension of the arms both forwarrd and out. Seems pretty good way (but hard to explain without a demo). I always look at pics of the racers - GS is best for hands. The inside arm is the most important, get that right first (signpost turns again - ssh I'll show you at the EOSB).  it does also seem to me that pushing both arms forward introduces tension along the arm, shoulder and thence into the spine (often, not always).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, sounds like we're thinking the same kind of position for the arms. I think your approach results in "elbows in front of the spine, hands wider than the elbows," doesn't it? As I understand, that description came from Phil and Steve Mahre in the Mahre Training Center.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ssh, sounds exactly the same to me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In frame 3 - it looks to me like you are getting ready to step up onto the uphill ski for the new turn which brings us back to "offensive vs. defensive".
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epic, good catch! My transitions were a real issue that day, which cgeib caught, as well. Weems believes that the fix to the hands/shoulders actually addresses that. Hopefully some more pics will tell the tale...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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See any difference?
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[pedant]
I'd like to see less hip counter, but thats just me!
[/pedant]
Well done!
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One other comment... these (once again) are unfamiliar skis (Elan Speedwave 14s, part of a 10-pair demo day that I've reviewed in the Equipment forum). They were fun, but not familiar. Part of the reason for my thoughts being elsewhere...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ssh, your inside (uphill) hand always seems to be way dropped (especially marked in shots 3 and 4)? Is that intentional? Is it good or bad?
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eng_ch, it is not intentionally dropped, no. I think that's vestigial (from the old arm rotation habit) and something for my focus the rest of the season... Good eyes! I think that changing that will give me better upper body position, more solid balance, and higher power especially at the top of the turn.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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OK I didn't really want to get into this as MA using stills isn't really a fair game, however:
Frame 4 the skis are slightly diverging, suggests to me you're slightly more on your inside ski than is ideal, and is probably caused by the hip dropped in slightly although it is hard to tell from that frame.
In frame3 & 5 I see a large tip lead given the terrain and amount of edging, I also see the outside ankle over-flexed, which lets the outside foot get caught back. The tip lead is similar, although not as large, as Foxy's Jackson Hole pic.
Re the question, "is it better", is what better? I was just looking at what the skis/feet were doing!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| veeeight wrote: |
OK I didn't really want to get into this as MA using stills isn't really a fair game, however:
Frame 4 the skis are slightly diverging, suggests to me you're slightly more on your inside ski than is ideal, and is probably caused by the hip dropped in slightly although it is hard to tell from that frame.
In frame3 & 5 I see a large tip lead given the terrain and amount of edging, I also see the outside ankle over-flexed, which lets the outside foot get caught back. The tip lead is similar, although not as large, as Foxy's Jackson Hole pic. |
Very interesting and useful input. Thank you... I think I know where I need to go with this...
| veeeight wrote: |
| Re the question, "is it better", is what better? I was just looking at what the skis/feet were doing! |
"Better" than the montage that started this thread. I think so, so I think I'm moving in the right direction. Do you?
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Yes. I see good strong solid skiing, with an improvement from Montage 1 to 2. Maybe get into dragging the outside pole (as well as the inside) timed with your pole swing to get better lateral balance.
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You know it makes sense.
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Interesting drill, veeeight, thanks. I'll play with that a bit.
I don't ever feel out of balance, but do need to get that inside foot out of the way more. Perhaps that will help, too.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm comparing myself to Bob Barnes in these shots... The hands aren't all the different, but there's some improvement to be had, for sure...
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Poster: A snowHead
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IMHO, and proportionally speaking, BB stacks up much shorter in the transitions.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| comprex wrote: |
| IMHO, and proportionally speaking, BB stacks up much shorter in the transitions. |
Care to expand on that? He is taller and lankier than I am, but I'm trying to follow this and see what I can think about, too...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ssh, I am making a few guesses here about relative proportion, but look at the height of the planting hand relative to the shoulder in photo #4 of both skiers.
(If you can line up the montages it might help, and I do realise you've turned away from the camera at that point and that basket to pole distance is visually scaled by skier height so BB might actually be reaching up more).
ps beautiful btw.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In frame 3, if BB had his poles pointing out sideways, and was wearing a red ski suit, he'd look remarkably like the guy whose initials are one row up on the keyboard from BB... 
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ssh, Great video. It just highlights the dangers of doing MA with still pictures.
In the video I see nice smooth strong skiing. Your LH turns are stronger than your RH turns, keep the pole basket travelling at the same rate as your outside ski.
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FAQ
