 Poster: A snowHead
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"In Whistler, the general view was that Epic people are, um, less accomplished than the guys they replaced"
Chamonix seems to have filled up with lots of really crap American snowboarders (and skiers) 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| T Bar wrote: |
@boarder2020,
A lot of the concern appears to be about ancillary things and not just the lift pass. For instance the way that a monopoly on ski school enables them to extract huge sums of money from users of the ski school whilst paying the instructors peanuts. Disallowing skinning in the resort when the area is important for ski touring. Low quality high priced food and drink etc. |
Fascinating stuff. Let's think about the "ancillary things" for a moment.
1. Ski schools: You can't forbid them, as that'd be against the law. What you really can do, is installing priority lines (as mentioned above) and offer packages/discounts with/on lift passes. Very expensive passes outside Epic would help hugely with this. That way you might starve out a lot of the competition.
2. Restos: You could offer to buy them and simultaneously jack up the prices for supply carriage with your lifts. Although you cannot do this very well with farmers who own the land under your pistes...
3. Skinning: Very little chance, that's 'merica bs. Outside the pistes (that's right next to the poles) zero and even on piste it's in the end the municipality who decides (you'd need to argue with danger).
4. Shops, hotels, etc. in town: Need to wait and buy at market value if possible.
Seems not as straight forward as in the US, but has still a lot of potential for uglyness.
On the other hand: If I were to be a really rich fellow owning a nice chalet, why would I be inclined to shell out 1-3 million to make some Burrus guy rich? For what? Preventing better lifts and snowmaking? Or am I obliged to throw in another million or ten afterwards to make the necessary investments? That is not very easy to see, at least for me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As an Ameriburger, I'm seeing a lot of misinformation in this thread.
First of all, there is no "American Ski System" there are a lot of different circumstances under which ski resorts here are operated. Some on private land, others on pubic.
Just like there is no European system. When I was in Ischgl last month, hey guess what? Yup, there's a monopoly on ski schools there. In spite of that, they didn't seem to have absurd rates. Probably can't and won't be able to with competition from other resorts anyways.
Yes, American ski instructors make less, and it costs way more. But, the upper ceiling is substantially higher. My old roomate had been in the business for quite some time and was good at networking to rich families. People like this at upscale resorts can make a substantial amount of money in tips (+perks). They are also generally less qualified.
BTW, Epic already has a deal with Verbier where you guy 5 days I think if you stay at certain lodges.
Anyways, Epic bought the local ski hill I grew up skiing. And to be honest, it's been fantastic overall. The food is the same quality it was before. Maybe it get's a bit busier (hard to say really), but now I can travel all over the country (and other countries) to much better ski areas on the same pass. Most people don't pay day pass tickets, and people who want to ski end up getting a lot more skiing in and it's cheaper. You just need to plan ahead, you can get day tickets before the season starts at a decent price.
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| stevesie wrote: |
Anyways, Epic bought the local ski hill I grew up skiing. And to be honest, it's been fantastic overall. The food is the same quality it was before. Maybe it get's a bit busier (hard to say really), but now I can travel all over the country (and other countries) to much better ski areas on the same pass. Most people don't pay day pass tickets, and people who want to ski end up getting a lot more skiing in and it's cheaper. You just need to plan ahead, you can get day tickets before the season starts at a decent price. |
I think this is basically the point that's been made already. For a little local hill it's great as barely anyone will bother visiting you, but now you have the option to go to the big places, as does everyone else that has a little local hill. Then places like Whistler etc become carnage.
Verbier would have exactly the same issue, especially as within 2 hours of the resort there's Geneva canton with 500k people and Vaud canton with 800k people and Valais canton with 300k people. If you offer the Epic pass to include Verbier, plus there's Crans on there, and maybe they buy a few more, then Verbier as one of the premier destinations in Switzerland becomes carnage.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I went to Vail when flights were cheap after 11/9 & what I really didn’t like was the lack of mountain restaurants - just a couple of massive barns with fast food outlets at inflated prices much like many motorway services & with about as much atmosphere. I’ve never felt the urge to return & I would hate European skiing to become like that. In addition the lift passes were considerably more expensive than in Europe but that may be a reflection of the lack of local competition, so I don’t think it would be healthy for a big corporation to own many neighbouring resorts. Having written that, I don’t think the Epic pass had been invented then & it appears that it has reduced prices judging by what’s been written on  s. It’s difficult to tell though as the website only tells me this season’s passes are not available & gives no indication of price.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 13-02-24 10:26; edited 1 time in total
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| swskier wrote: |
Verbier would have exactly the same issue, especially as within 2 hours of the resort there's Geneva canton with 500k people and Vaud canton with 800k people and Valais canton with 300k people. If you offer the Epic pass to include Verbier, plus there's Crans on there, and maybe they buy a few more, then Verbier as one of the premier destinations in Switzerland becomes carnage. |
This is exactly the point. If you are a Verbier regular the only benefit appears to be a cheaper pass and access to some other (worse) resorts. But the cost will be massive increases in skier numbers. So local businesses may benefit if they don’t get squeezed out but the impact will be overwhelmingly negative on the skier experience.
I suspect most Verbier regulars will be firmly against with good reason.
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Is there a European equivalent of Epic?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@BobinCH, I suspect so too.
Also worth pointing out that Verbs is a bit useless if you are a crap snowboarder 
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| Gordyjh wrote: |
| Is there a European equivalent of Epic? |
Sort of, there's the Magic pass in Switzerland, but it's in the main smaller/2nd tier desitnations with probably Saas Fee as their premier destination. It's a fantastic deal though if you're a Saas Fee season pass holder anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| swskier wrote: |
| Gordyjh wrote: |
| Is there a European equivalent of Epic? |
Sort of, there's the Magic pass in Switzerland, but it's in the main smaller/2nd tier desitnations with probably Saas Fee as their premier destination. It's a fantastic deal though if you're a Saas Fee season pass holder anyway. |
Very popular with families at less than 400chf per year (so summer MTB also) including many Vaud and Valais resorts. Villars / Les Diablerets is where our friends go as it’s the closest big resort to Lausanne and has access to G3000 for high altitude. Also has good spots like Val d’Anniviers, Arolla, Saas Fee and Crans for a supplement. Doesn’t include PdS, Verbier or Zermatt - basically the only ones powerful enough to stand on their own feet. Business model similar to Epic - very cheap pass but resorts benefit from increased skier numbers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| swskier wrote: |
| Gordyjh wrote: |
| Is there a European equivalent of Epic? |
Sort of, there's the Magic pass in Switzerland, but it's in the main smaller/2nd tier desitnations with probably Saas Fee as their premier destination. It's a fantastic deal though if you're a Saas Fee season pass holder anyway. |
The magic pass is a great deal (but subtly different concept to Epic).
It basically groups together a bunch of small / cheap family resorts into a single season ticket. Which then makes them competitive against the larger stations. Very few people would buy a season ticket for La Fouly, St Luc or Les Marecottes. But there are all wonderful places to visit for a day. Especially if you are local and have opportunity to visit several of them across multiple weekends.
One unfortunate consequence of climate change is that the lower altitude resorts (i.e cheaper family stations for locals) become less reliable and economically viable. As skiers inevitably get pushed to the small number of higher altitude resorts it's inevitable that places like Zermatt or Verbier become even busier, more expensive and further gentrified.
Personally I would be wary of Vail resorts. A cheaper season pass is not everything if it brings large weekend crowds and US style commercialisation / tourism (a 200chf day pass?). However sadly that seems to be direction skiing is heading in general.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Haggis_Trap, Les Marecottes* is CHF999 for the season  Grand Massif, early bird, around ? €400... go figger
* 1 chairlift, 1 drag ... but very cute and fun on a powder day
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Haggis_Trap, Les Marecottes* is CHF999 for the season Grand Massif, early bird, around ? €400... go figger
* 1 chairlift, 1 drag ... but very cute and fun on a powder day |
Exactly.... No one is paying chf999 for the Les Marecottes only season pass when you can buy a Magic Pass (including Les Marecottes and 30 other micro stations) for chf400 early bird.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Gordyjh wrote: |
| I went to Vail when flights were cheap after 11/9 & what I really didn’t like was the lack of mountain restaurants - just a couple of massive barns with fast food outlets at inflated prices much like many motorway services & with about as much atmosphere. I’ve never felt the urge to return & I would hate European skiing to become like that. In addition the lift passes were considerably more expensive than in Europe but that may be a reflection of the lack of local competition, so I don’t think it would be healthy for a big corporation to own many neighbouring resorts. Having written that, I don’t think the Epic pass had been invented then & it appears that it has reduced prices judging by what’s been written on s. It’s difficult to tell though as the website only tells me this season’s passes are not available & gives no indication of price. |
The trick with Vail is to take your own beers and steaks and stash em in the snow then use one of the free BBQs to grill em. That's what the locals do.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, that doesn’t help with the lack of atmosphere or local dishes. The trick with Vail is to ski in Austria…
The other problem of course is that it’s full of Americans! 
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@Haggis_Trap, interesting. Definitely a good plan if you're local (enough).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Have Vail done any of the these things (restrictions on other instructors, hikes in day pass prices, banning skinning, presure on privstly owned restaurants, etc) in Andermatt?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| swskier wrote: |
| Gordyjh wrote: |
| Is there a European equivalent of Epic? |
Sort of, there's the Magic pass in Switzerland, but it's in the main smaller/2nd tier desitnations with probably Saas Fee as their premier destination. It's a fantastic deal though if you're a Saas Fee season pass holder anyway. |
Very popular with families at less than 400chf per year (so summer MTB also) including many Vaud and Valais resorts. Villars / Les Diablerets is where our friends go as it’s the closest big resort to Lausanne and has access to G3000 for high altitude. Also has good spots like Val d’Anniviers, Arolla, Saas Fee and Crans for a supplement. Doesn’t include PdS, Verbier or Zermatt - basically the only ones powerful enough to stand on their own feet. Business model similar to Epic - very cheap pass but resorts benefit from increased skier numbers. |
Villars is a nightmare for queues since it joined the Magic Pass, at least is was when I went for a weekend a couple of years ago and I'm in no rush to go back. I'd hate for that to happen to Verbier, PdS, etc, which can be busy, but bearable.
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@adithorp, I was under th impression you had to stay in a limited choice of v. expensive hotels in Andermatt to use the Epic pass?
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@under a new name, I'm not sure. Its not mentioned on my epic app that i can see (just says unrestricted, present epic pass and photo ID ticket office). I think Verbier extention is dependant on linked accommodation.
I just thought as Vail had purchased it a couple of years ago, it might serve as an indication of the direction they would go with European resorts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I heard that one of the main opponents of replacing the Savoleyres gondola passed away last year so the lift company are now more confident that they can replace it.
Personally, I love it...part of skiing history!
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Having bought Epic pass for a few odd years over the past 10, and having skied many of the mountains “pre-Epic”, I’d say the prediction of ruin is pre-mature.
People love to moan about Whistler having crazy long queues. I’ve skied there pre-Epic. It’s got super long queue even then! It’s probably worse now in comparison, like all mountains these days. But as a tourist visiting only for 7-10 days a year, I don’t notice the increase crowd all that much. Vail mountain itself, I don’t find it any worse at all. (I’ve skied it way back when, the queue getting out of the back bowls on a powder day were maddening even back then!)
A mountain being part of Epic isn’t the end of the good skier experience. Many “Epic-partner” mountains, with restricted access of say, 5-7-10 days, had not been all that dramatic. Sure, the resort got a bit busier, which is after all the point of the mountain wanted to be a partner in the first place. There’s a balance between more revenue vs good skier experience. Most of the epic “partners” IMHO, are doing pretty good.
It’s the unrestricted access mountains that were seeing ruinous increase in skier crowding.
To this day, the worst lift “queue” I’ve ever been in was Kitsbuhel cable car. Except there’s no queue. It’s just a mob pushing and shoveling but hardly moving! It took more than 1/2 hr to get on!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well, I've skied Vail as well as Heavenly Lake Tahoe and a couple of smaller US resorts, as well as Verbier, the PdS, Val Thorens and other Alpine resorts. Vail was the most expensive per head of any trip I've done in terms of resort costs. They all had their pros and cons, but personally, I liked the 4 Vallées the best (the 'antique' Savoleyres lift notwithstanding). I certainly don't find the lift system there inferior overall. But I don't tend to go in school holidays, so the experience may be different then. What would upset me is if the Verbier VIP pass in the summer disappeared: this is where you get a free pedestrian lift pass if' you're paying the tourist tax, and it's been a very positive change to the summer experience since it was introduced a couple of years ago.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sat 17-02-24 20:12; edited 1 time in total
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[quote="swskier"]
| stevesie wrote: |
...then Verbier as one of the premier destinations in Switzerland becomes carnage. |
Some days it is carnage anyway! The Attelas red run is known as the "M25" in my skiing circle...
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @adithorp, I was under th impression you had to stay in a limited choice of v. expensive hotels in Andermatt to use the Epic pass? |
Andermatt is unlimited on full Epic as Crans Montana is anticipated to be next year. Verbier is currently 5 days with accommodation booked through tourist office. The Arlberg is the stinger, must book at limited number of 4 or 5 * hotels and of course the price uplift over a more humble pension/ appartment etc is way more than the ticket price.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Comment on Eurosport a few minutes ago (there's a Giant in Palissades Tahoe): "the pass for today is...?" "I dunno, $150-250?" "It's $279".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The predictions of Epic based resorts in Europe getting overcrowded I think is a bit silly. There simply aren't going to be enough Americans going over sees to do that.
Americans will generally use the Epic pass to ski places in America.
The only situation where it could happen is if the overall environment in Europe becomes like in America. IE - tons of resorts in Europe end up on a magic pass and Europeans are buying it up and going to those resorts. But, the problem is that it's just not enough of a good deal in Europe because the day tickets are so much cheaper, that it'd be hard for that to happen.
Anyways, I'm glad to some some Manifest Destiny being brought to European resorts. If things played out like they did in America (which they won't) you'll have at least a decade before things get overcrowded.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Update from Le Nouvelliste today
According to a press release distributed by the APCAV, Christian Burrus recalled that his family, involved in the ski lift company for decades, had already controlled the arrival in Verbier of the French from the Compagnie des Alpes in the 2000s. It was never my goal to sell our Téléverbier shares. The only thing that interests me is Verbier. We have received several buyout offers over the years but, I repeat, Téléverbier is not for sale, period.”
If the company does not want to sell to Americans, it has been working with Vail Resorts for 10 years, as Laurent Vaucher indicated. Verbier season ticket holders can ski for five days for free at Vail Resorts resorts in the USA, Canada and Australia.
The majority players
As a reminder, Christian Burrus holds a little more than 26% of Téléverbier's shares, while the Commune and Bourgeoisie of Bagnes have 25.8%, according to the company's website. These actors therefore have, on their own, the absolute majority and decision-making power in society.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Is there a European equivalent of Epic?
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The Tirol Snow Card takes some beating IMO. No foreign ski areas but about 90 areas (big and small) covered across the Tirol. Best of all, it covers 4 or 5 glaciers too and is valid from October to May.
And all for under €1000 last time I checked.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Gordyjh wrote: |
| Is there a European equivalent of Epic? |
Don't forget salzburg super ski it's PR says 87 resorts and over 900 lifts for around €1000 season pass.
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this might be a daft question, but who owns a ski resort, ski resorts are towns and villages, you cant just buy a town or village.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The lift company essentially because without the lifts it isn't much of a ski resort.
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
| Quote: |
Is there a European equivalent of Epic?
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The Tirol Snow Card takes some beating IMO. No foreign ski areas but about 90 areas (big and small) covered across the Tirol. Best of all, it covers 4 or 5 glaciers too and is valid from October to May.
And all for under €1000 last time I checked. |
€1050 this season, unless you're registered as living here locally when it comes down by around €200 to about €850.
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FAQ
