 Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks for this - great article, and helps me understand that I'm probably "hip dumping" in my skiing. Something to work on!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@GinaMae, I’ve not seen anywhere that talks about or recommends 40% inside ski weighting, indeed that article linked previously has these quotes from two skiing gods
As Ted Ligety himself talked about it in an Instagram Live with Jonny Mosely: “One of the most common novice questions people ask me is regarding how much weight on each ski… And I never think about it but it’s pretty much 100% on the outside foot. The inside foot is kind of just dragging in there. On the flats might be 80/20 because you’re pumping the turns. But you’re never thinking what the percentage is. It is over the outside ski where you want to be!
Jonny Moseley says mogul skiing is just the same, 100% from outside ski to outside ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kitenski wrote: |
| 100% from outside ski to outside ski. |
And that's why I suggest snowboarding as an option for skiers with bad knees - as opposed to a knee brace - given snowboarding tends to involve more equal weighting.
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Is it really skiing intuitively when one has such a deep analysis of something? To me it sounds a lot like you're over thinking everything and you should put down the textbooks and just ski.
You may be onto something with the occupation thing though, perhaps our career does have an influence on how we ski. E.g I'm a quantity surveyor and I generally buy second-hand cheap and tired kit. I know a chap who's a motor mechanic and skis like he's got a torque wrench taped to his knee and also a structural engineer who has a frame that is clearly over-engineered and too big
As others have said, the instructor clearly had some valid points (along with some odd ones, the back pain thing is just weird). Sounds like they don't have the gift of imparting that advice very well, try a different instructor rather than resorting to books. Books will teach you things, but they'll never highlight your faults and lifties/pisteurs will blow smoke up your ass because it's not their job to say if you're skiing badly, just if you're skiing dangerously.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowdave wrote: |
| Thanks for this - great article, and helps me understand that I'm probably "hip dumping" in my skiing. Something to work on! |
A very, very common problem, particularly when skiers try really hard to get really big angles, really early in the turn. It’s the opposite of progressively building and influencing the turn, and typically leads to less edge angle later in the turn compared to starting smoothly and building the edge angle until you start to release the turn.
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@SnoodyMcFlude, just go with the flow and swing those arms, eh?
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Joining this thread late (and after a few glasses of red wine) but try grabbing some poles and running down a grassy slope without skis on and see where your body dynamics/foot "edging" takes place.
That's all that you need in terms of the dynamics of skiing - racers have used this through poles for "off snow" training
As @pigeondave says: just go with the flow
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If you suffer from a bad back then a less aggressive stance does help. If you don't have a worn/defective spine then you'd never notice it being a problem.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| snowdave wrote: |
| Thanks for this - great article, and helps me understand that I'm probably "hip dumping" in my skiing. Something to work on! |
A very, very common problem, particularly when skiers try really hard to get really big angles, really early in the turn. It’s the opposite of progressively building and influencing the turn, and typically leads to less edge angle later in the turn compared to starting smoothly and building the edge angle until you start to release the turn. |
From watching the young racers I thought this was more of a girl thing, would you agree ?
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| pigeondave wrote: |
| @SnoodyMcFlude, just go with the flow and swing those arms, eh? |
And a low centre of gravity helps.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
Is it really skiing intuitively when one has such a deep analysis of something? To me it sounds a lot like you're over thinking everything and you should put down the textbooks and just ski.
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Yes, it is, and this answer should be obvious. Skiing intuitively is what I am doing on the way down the hill. Thinking about it afterwards is something else entirely. For example, the instructor said "Don't drag that pole!", which made me subsequently think about why I dragged the pole, and realize that I was doing the skater's turn I described in the original post, without ever having consciously thought about it before. So, in a sense the instructor was helpful, because I reverse-engineered all the things the instructor told me not to do, to figure out why I was doing them, which subsequently improved my skiing. Uncle Dan's advice, "You will learn more from your falls ..." only works if you think about why you fell, on the next chairlift, and then "Don't think about it!" on the way down the next time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@GinaMae, intuitive or not, dragging your pole is terrible technique, not because it's not in vogue, but because it's likely to lead to a loss of control. If you're dragging your pole then you are pulling your upper body into the hill. This will transfer weight from your downhill, or outside, foot, to your uphill or inside foot which will decrease your ability to hold an edge or enter a controlled slide, likely throw you off balance and you in the back seat position which will tire your thighs and result in less control over over the skis.
I do feel that you need to post a video though, how else are you going to convince the naysayers of these unique tools
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@GinaMae, to me it sounds like you've got far too much analysis and things going through your head at all times, but to each their own.
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You know it makes sense.
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The instructor was certainly correct about modern techniques you don't "pop up" to unweight (I also learnt years ago and took many years to stop the unweighting habit)
I think that I have been instructed to “pop up” to initiate a turn by various instructors in the modern era, and I think it is still in my armoury for tackling very steep slopes, though I suspect that maybe I don’t use it as much as technique has improved. Isn’t using a pole effectively the precursor of some popping up?
Perhaps this is a technique that you are taught, like a snowplough, that is a building block to get to a final destination.
Like the OP I learnt and was reasonably proficient on long skis then had a twenty year hiatus, a lot of the old stuff is pretty embedded and difficult to unlearn, but if I were the op, I would be a bit more open minded, think of modern skis and techniques as a new game, and get some new tools into the toolbox and enjoy the possibilities that have opened up …
Or take up Telemark skiing 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| DavidYacht wrote: |
Isn’t using a pole effectively the precursor of some popping up?
Perhaps this is a technique that you are taught, like a snowplough, that is a building block to get to a final destination. |
You should not confuse 'no popping up' with no up or down movement at all. A pole-plant will generally be done ahead of the body and with bent knees, so require that your shoulder lifts as you progress over the pole, so there is indeed movement, but it's not sudden, and it's not an input, but part of the overall dynamic. In the past it was often taught as a deliberate, conscious and often sudden and jerky action, now it's thought of more as a result of other inputs.
Put it another way - a complete lack of any up and down movement would almost certainly be the sign of some other issues, but we would try to address the underlying issues rather than telling the student that they should be moving up and down more, which would not help them to focus on the real cause.
| DavidYacht wrote: |
Or take up Telemark skiing |
Quite right. It may be surprising to non-telemarkers just how much some of the things you need to do can be brought back into and improve one's Alpine skiing. There's a range of different 'feelings' you get from it which help with body awareness and some specific aspects, like getting used to the outside ski being in front of the inside one, or vice-versa just for the hell of it, using the outside edge of the inside ski to turn, which can be really useful when applied on fixed gear as well.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@GinaMae, I'm 76. Enjoy your skiing
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@GinaMae, I'm 76. Enjoy your skiing
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rambotion wrote: |
@GinaMae, intuitive or not, dragging your pole is terrible technique, not because it's not in vogue, but because it's likely to lead to a loss of control. If you're dragging your pole then you are pulling your upper body into the hill. This will transfer weight from your downhill, or outside, foot, to your uphill or inside foot which will decrease your ability to hold an edge or enter a controlled slide, likely throw you off balance and you in the back seat position which will tire your thighs and result in less control over over the skis.
I do feel that you need to post a video though, how else are you going to convince the naysayers of these unique tools |
The skater's turn was an example of a different way to use centripetal-force. I am not interested in arguing if it works or not. It works. It has to work because it's science. Try it if you want.
If the only thing I was doing was dragging the pole as I went into the turn, you might be right. But I am also leading with the other pole, downhill - so it balances. I don't feel the need to convince anybody of anything. I live alone, I ski alone, and have no intention of making any videos.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@GinaMae, if you're dragging one pole and lifting the other then isn't your upper body twisted?
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| DavidYacht wrote: |
Like the OP I learnt and was reasonably proficient on long skis then had a twenty year hiatus, a lot of the old stuff is pretty embedded and difficult to unlearn, but if I were the op, I would be a bit more open minded, think of modern skis and techniques as a new game, and get some new tools into the toolbox and enjoy the possibilities that have opened up …
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I do not know why anyone thinks I am not open-minded, or not incorporating modern ski-theory into my skiing. I am simply doing it in a right-brain, intuitive, adult-learner way. I might also add that I got a full-refund for that lesson.
I have enough experience arguing politics to know when somebody is not really paying attention to my argument, but only looking for little pieces to attack, in order to prove to themself that they are right, and to try to look smarter by trying to make someone else look stupid.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| @GinaMae, if you're dragging one pole and lifting the other then isn't your upper body twisted? |
Absolutely NOT! Both pole-tips are on the ground, and the only movement necessary to do this starts at the shoulders. My torso is still facing the same direction, and moving on the same vector as my skis, and downhill-gravity creates the lean into the turn, and the edge-angles to carve the turn.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| I do not know why anyone thinks I am not open-minded, or not incorporating modern ski-theory into my skiing. |
Maybe because every comment people make is met with "No, that's not what's happening". I'm not completely sure why you've even started the thread, other than to pat yourself on the back for being awesome.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There is really only one answer to all the comments, VIDEO please!!!
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I think you are over analysing stuff, probably it's in your nature. You just need more time on ski's again (with an instructor).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If "No that's not happening" was the entirety of my answer, without further explanation, you would be right.
Why did I start the thread? "Writers write to figure-out what they are writing about." This discussion has helped me clarify my thinking on this subject, in an open-minded, right-brain, adult-learner manner. If it helps some others think about their skiing in a different way, so much the better. If it pisses-off people who have sunk thousands of dollars into left-brain, mechanical, lessons - that's an unintended consequence.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| beester1976 wrote: |
| I think you are over analysing stuff, probably it's in your nature. You just need more time on ski's again (with an instructor). |
In college, you learn stuff. In grad-school, you learn to think for yourself. In college, you learn from listening to the teacher. In grad-school, you learn from challenging dogma.
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@GinaMae, saying that you're open minded, doesn't make you open minded. People who are giving you advice can ski well, far better than you can, they've been doing it for decades and they're worth listening to rather than arguing against them with what you feel is reasoned debate.
I disagree with people suggesting lessons though, you're clearly not open to instruction from others.
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You know it makes sense.
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| KenX wrote: |
| There is really only one answer to all the comments, VIDEO please!!! |
You are welcome to come here and make one.
This reminds me some bowling-writing I did. I won an Amateur Bowling Writers' contest, with an article about using mantras for bowling. When the article was published, alot of people complained on the website, "This person's bowling-average is only 187, how dare you publish their article!?! They can't teach me anything, because I am a better bowler than they are."
The editors' response was "Doing and teaching are entirely different skills. This writer is a good teacher, and this article teaches."
Your point, and that of others making the same point, is no different. You want to pick-apart my skiing as means of criticizing my teaching. But it's a logical non-sequitur.
This thread has 1300 reads, 67 replies, and a dozen critics. It's not only the critics whose opinion matters.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
@GinaMae
I disagree with people suggesting lessons though, you're clearly not open to instruction from others. |
Right. That's why I am watching so many videos and reading so many articles.
You are not reading what I am saying. You just want to prove me wrong to make yourself feel smarter. How much money have you spent on lessons? I understand and empathize with your need to feel that money was well-spent.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@GinaMae,
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This discussion has helped me clarify my thinking on this subject, in an open-minded, right-brain, adult-learner manner |
You are not coming across as either open-minded or - not that it's really a catch-all term of art - right-brained.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| KenX wrote: |
| There is really only one answer to all the comments, VIDEO please!!! |
You are welcome to come here and make one.
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Ah...........
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As I said, Ken, I do not have the capability to make the video you want to see. You would know this if you were actually reading what I am saying.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Pam, the idea that age doesn't matter in athletics, and specifically not in skiing, is so far from reality as to make arguing about it an exercise in futility.
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I responded to your contention that your age meant some aspects of the way modern technique is taught were "too risky" for you. My point is not that age makes no difference to athletic ability (which would indeed be absurd) but that age makes no difference to the optimum way to learn modern ski technique and that, on the contrary, the more effectively you learn to use the modern equipment and technique, the less effort it takes, and the longer you can continue skiing. Whether you are 25 or 65, good technique is good technique.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| You are not reading what I am saying. You just want to prove me wrong to make yourself feel smarter. How much money have you spent on lessons? I understand and empathize with your need to feel that money was well-spent. |
Probably not enough, maybe £800-1,000 total over the last 7 or 8 years, I'm still trying to work on the last set of pointers I got  Money well spent? Don't really know and don't really care, some lessons clearly improved my skiing, some possibly not so much.
If anyone here is trying to show how smart they are, it ain't me, I'm more than aware of my failings (seeing video of myself skiing was quite humbling).
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Pam, the idea that age doesn't matter in athletics, and specifically not in skiing, is so far from reality as to make arguing about it an exercise in futility.
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I responded to your contention that your age meant some aspects of the way modern technique is taught were "too risky" for you. My point is not that age makes no difference to athletic ability (which would indeed be absurd) but that age makes no difference to the optimum way to learn modern ski technique and that, on the contrary, the more effectively you learn to use the modern equipment and technique, the less effort it takes, and the longer you can continue skiing. Whether you are 25 or 65, good technique is good technique. |
But what is good technique for someone 25 is not necessarily good technique for someone 65. What is bad technique for someone 25 is not necessarily bad technique for someone 65. What is good instruction for someone 25 is not necessarily good instruction for someone 65. Moreover, as already stated, I could not possibly have skiied 7 consecutive-days, if I was not skiing efficiently. I am simply getting there a different way.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| But what is good technique for someone 25 is not necessarily good technique for someone 65. What is bad technique for someone 25 is not necessarily bad technique for someone 65. |
Of all the things you've written in this thread, that is the most wrong.
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| Quote: |
But what is good technique for someone 25 is not necessarily good technique for someone 65. What is bad technique for someone 25 is not necessarily bad technique for someone 65.
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Well, that's where I'd disagree. I've had ski instruction with a variety of instructors and none has suggested to me something which I think is inappropriate "for my age". But clearly you are at liberty to go off and ski the way you want. Just don't try to persuade others that "modern" techniques are inappropriate to you because of your (not very advanced) age.
I've had instructors who, being aware of my age, have taken a different approach from the one they'd have taken with a very athletic younger person (or a very athletic older person, come to that). But the direction of travel - and the goals to be aimed at - are much the same.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Of all the things you've written in this thread, that is the most stupid. What about it is wrong, Mr. Declaratory-Judgment without counter-argument?
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
But what is good technique for someone 25 is not necessarily good technique for someone 65. What is bad technique for someone 25 is not necessarily bad technique for someone 65.
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Just don't try to persuade others that "modern" techniques are inappropriate to you because of your (not very advanced) age.
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Age is more than years lived, it is also the cumulative damage of injuries. My body has absorbed alot more damage than the average person my age.
I am not claiming that all modern-techniques are inappropriate for me, just some. I don't need to ski faster, but I do need to ski safer.
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FAQ
