 Poster: A snowHead
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
If they all conformed to the same standard, there would be no need for Atomic to rank competitors. According to Matt Manser, they absolutely do accurate measuring with a robot and have a huge store of data, which they use to ensure consistency within their ranges....but that only relates to their product. The relevant bit of the Podcast discussing this, is from 16m to 24m.
I am not trying to be argumentative - just fully understand. Like you say, everywhere I look, say the same thing. |
I think the key point here is that although in this instance it's clear that Atomic are trying to ensure comparability of flex ratings, they're doing so on a non-standard basis, i.e. there is not universally-accepted standard for flex ratings, but if all manufacturers are now doing this then we, the customer, should be able to be confident that flex ratings across boots and brands will be pretty similar to each other.
I'm glad to see this, as it does mean that our ten-year-old assumptions that comparisons of different brands rating are fairly meaningless can now be put to rest, although I think there's still perhaps some way to go in defining an industry standard, together with a defined testing methodology to ensure 100% conformity across all manufacturers. Although maybe it's not worth anyone's while to do so, if we can just trust that they're close enough.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| CH2O wrote: |
| It was that exact Podcast that made us revisit the offices and verify what we believe. |
It makes it all the more difficult to know what to believe. If, as Matt Manser says - and one would assume he should know - they benchmark Atomic to be in the middle of what is out there from the competition, then that points in the direction of no particular standardization. It does show however, they do lots of both objective and subjective testing and measurements, with graphs and data to back it up, which should make Atomic Boots consistent with each other. He says they would be ready for and even welcome standardization, but thinks it is very unlikely to happen.
Also, as part of that article:
WHY ISN’T THERE A UNIVERSAL STANDARD FOR FLEX RATINGS?
First, brands would potentially oppose any standard, because it could be costly. It’s extremely expensive to create a boot mold, so for a model to ultimately miss the rating it was intended to achieve could throw off the whole line and be financially disastrous for a brand.
Second, flex patterns are partially determined by the foot that the boot is designed to receive, which isn’t easily standardized.
Third, it would likely require that all boots of a certain flex rating have similar general constructions and shapes in order to be comparable, which would cause brands to align and be quite similar to each other. So, the standardization process could potentially slow down innovation.
I've said my bit, so will go back to scratching my head a little more.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bless Matt, he thinks Mimic liners are the poo-poo too!!!!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Bless Matt, he thinks Mimic liners are the poo-poo too!!!!! |
....But is he correct in what he says about how Atomic benchmarks other brands, in order to figure out where Atomic should be?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| CH2O wrote: |
| Bless Matt, he thinks Mimic liners are the poo-poo too!!!!! |
....But is he correct in what he says about how Atomic benchmarks other brands, in order to figure out where Atomic should be? |
You can head over to Skitalk.com and ask him - He is pretty active on that forum, and always very responsive. As far as I remember, he is the PM for Atonic boots, so I guess he should know.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The transcript of that Blister podcast includes a chart with a few flex profiles - none of which are linear. It's unreasonable to try to characterise those curves with a single number. However you can compare numbers within a single model and expect them to tell you which of two boots is stiffer. And as Atomic's man points out, as they try to calibrate to their competition, you can to some extent expect different manufacturers to be roughly equivalent if not identical. In fact they're deliberately not identical - how those curves are engineered will affect the feel of each boot. That's why they exist.
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| Boywonder wrote: |
Thanks for the input and advice - especially the socks. I went to Cervinia in December and will be going back there later this year. Went Borovets for a very cheap trip and to have lessons - my comment on not crashing into people was due to the volume of people on the mountain there…but it served a purpose and it turns out I’m a quick learner. I live close to Xscape so wanting my own boots so I can carry on having lessons through the year.
My original post was a question about flex and thanks for the input. |
I had my current boots fitted at Ellis Brigham at Xscape
Salomon xpro 100s
It was a young ish guy, I told him I have problems with pain on my protruding inner ankles, wide feet and I like moguls & offpiste as well as piste carving.
I was after some of the boots in the sale but £375 later I walked away with the salomons after the shells and inners had been thermally moulded to my feet. The fitter suggested the softer flex if I was skiing moguls a lot.
The boots were very tight to start with, thought I'd made a big mistake but after a week they were perfect!! And have been for the past 7 years. I did have to have the leg buckles moved to a tighter position once the boots had bedded in.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Boywonder, having your feet "measured" is not "fitting". That's like going to a Clark's store in the 70's and being in wonder at the measurement machine 
"Fitting" is having a skilled technician examine your feet, selecting the best (being the one that needs least work) boot from her range (if possible, turning you away if not) and then crafting that boot to fit your feet.
Not something that Ellis Brigham, nor Snow and Rock are typically equipped to do.
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@tangowaggon, I got my boots there and I was satisfied with the person fitting me. He certainly knew enough about all the makes to choose one suited to my feet - and for example advised boots for my daughter which were not one of her preferred brands. But I would expect @under a new name to have met fitters in Chamonix whose throughput has given them expertise beyond most British fitters.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@j b, yes,
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expertise beyond most British fitters |
But not through throughput. Training and learning. Although experience clearly plays a role.
I'm not saying that EB or S&R don't have folks that can do a good job ( a friend's son worked in one having done a Salomon fitting course and while training as a podiatrist). But equally they have people who have never skied nor fitted a boot before.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@under a new name, playing the devils advocate here, if the size is right, which should be possible to measure from your Clark’s measuring machine, then putting your foot in a few different boots (of the appropriate flex) and seeing which fits the best should normally give an equivalent result to the boot fitter suggested model right?
From my experience of trying on boots it was always pretty obvious if a boot would work or not, albeit with some modifications for minor pressure points.
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@BobinCH, what feels good in the shop doesn't necessarily fit on the hill (and is invariably too big)?
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You know it makes sense.
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@BobinCH, ….I have had boots I bought for 20gbp from ebay and had adjusted, and then I have had boots which I bought for 400gbp and had professionally fitted. I have terrible experience with both, and brilliant experience with both. There’s just no discernible pattern to it, really. Even with top fitters. At the moment I am skiing on RX110 Langes (HV) in 26 mondo which were secondhand hand-me-downs (albeit barely used) and were slightly adjusted for my large big-toe knuckle (aka bunion) by a good fitter in London (40gbp) and have served brilliantly for 5 years. I have some Atomics which were purchased new at a large retailer, adjusted by them, in the UK and are pants. I should have got a size down (25 mondo) but they didn’t have them in stock and I should have walked away rather than gone with their recommendation. I bought some full retail boots which were strongly recommended by a friend, and the full gamut of adjustments have been made on them. They ski dreadfully, far softer flex than they should be, and because I pressure the front of the boot a LOT, they freak me out on the hill by collapsing unpredictably. The only thing I have learned is that I need to try a lot of boots in anger on the hill….not rely on one pair of boots…terrible for the planet = in the cupboards are Atomics, Dalbellos, Lange, Full Tilt, Tecnica and Salomon. My son raids the stock since he has vaguely the same size feet as me. So that’s useful. But I feel guilty about kit just lying around…
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@BobinCH, the average foot can have upto 20mm of mobility, it will depend where you measure between Over Pronated and Supinated, weighted or unweighted. We can all buy a piano hey! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
| I'm not saying that EB or S&R don't have folks that can do a good job ( a friend's son worked in one having done a Salomon fitting course and while training as a podiatrist). But equally they have people who have never skied nor fitted a boot before. |
EB market themselves as using 'Surefit' as an approach to bootfitting. I don't know exactly what this means, or how much faith to put in it (the fact that I'm driving to Bicester rather than Bristol next week is perhaps an indication of how much faith I'm putting in it), but it suggests that their bootfitters do at least have some training in, well, fitting boots.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jmr59, well do please report back
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