 Poster: A snowHead
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@limegreen1,
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slow as you like and even in a snow plough no matter where or who you are
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Oh yes, indeedy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I had the same problem. I was terrified of skiing in flat light; in particular if it was lumpy/chopped up snow. I tried various lenses including yellow and rose. The only ones that worked for me were Oakley High Pink Prizm lenses. I can see enough detail on the snow using them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Awdbugga, while different lenses can help, ultimately there's a limit to contrast. AT which point new tactics are needed (lots of short turns).
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Had plenty of opportunities to practice this today in Ischgl. My main takes are:
Be positive, keeping weight forward and keeping momentum
As per @under a new name, short turns are good. I am a bit biased here as short turns are my happy place, but if you can do short turns and be continually turning, then you keep your rhythm and compensate during a turn. Otherwise anything unexpected will cause you to delay the next turn,and you'll lose rhythm
If you can pick the run, aim for runs with a consistent gradient to minimise surprising accelerations or decelerations
I find a decent, controlled speed is a sign it's going well, though this is a consequence of skiing well, rather than a cause
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@viv, …I mentioned ‘jumps turns’ too. I think it’s more than just short turns…flat light can create a very static ‘panic’ stance too - the problematic ‘park and ride’ - initiate the turn and then rigidly position (even in short turns) and that is a big part of the problem of poor viz … unseen snow features then knock you out of balance.
‘Jump turns’ is not quite right but it conveys the sense of remaining fluid and dynamic. Dynamic stance means that features are dealt with by more automatic brain processes to do with physical balance rather than visual processing. That’s a VERY big difference. Yes, it’s important to maximise what you can see - big help -
This quote is VERY important:
‘….By limiting our analysis to visual perception, it should be clearly understood that we do not mean to imply that non-visual sources of information are irrelevant or unnecessary for athletic performance. On the contrary, in the nine chapters which make up this book, we have taken many opportunities to demonstrate the wonderful flexibility of successful athletes who are capable of making sense out of the inputs from the different sensory systems as goal-directed behaviour unfolds in sport…’
It’s from this:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mohamed-Mourad-Lafifi/post/Can_somebody_help_me_out_with_expertise_of_motoric_events_that_occur_when_two_persons_are_accidentally_trying_to_grab_the_same_item/attachment/59d63b9b79197b8077998a39/AS%3A411590156406785%401475142148494/download/Visual+Perception+and+Action+in+Sport.pdf
In other words…visual cues are a very good thing but there’s far more to human performance than that, there are other inputs to balance than just vision - as those working on robots which can walk across rough ground understand all too well. But removing visual cues makes us anxious…to a level which messes up our performance. We must not underestimate the extent to which awareness of the absence of visual cues and the stress which goes with that - not just the actual absence of visual cues - messes with our heads.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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This perfectly describes the conditions on Saturday round here.
TBF it's easier to get a feel for the gradient on a board in poor visibility.
Just come to stop and see which way you fall over.
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@valais2, I had in mind short swings, I'm not even sure how you can "park and ride" in properly short turns.
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@under a new name, ah good point…short swings that’s right….I certainly had a habit of a slow build up of bad balance over about 3-5 short turns - fine in turn one, by turn 5 centre of mass has crept back and …. Bang
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@valais2, I think the general idea is a. you have to concentrate on not falling over if it's really zero vis and b. you are giving your proprioception a lot more to work with.
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@under a new name, ….damn…yes…should have mentioned proprioception….bang on
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@valais2, haha proprioception is figuring rather heavily in my life at the moment, post ACL recon.
Apparently there's an important nerve that gets severed during the op that tells your brain where your knee and lower leg is 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Fabulous article! I think surgeons are starting to pay a lot more attention to recovery from injury (as opposed to just repair of the injury). Really interesting that there are surgical techniques that might preserve sensation in the knee joint better than standard techniques. Thanks for posting this!
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You know it makes sense.
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@diaphon, …yes this focus on quality of life and restoration of function is extremely interesting…it takes a while for new protocols to become established but this is very interesting and may encourage good exchange with people on here seeking a procedure and surgeons developing their tradecraft.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @Awdbugga, while different lenses can help, ultimately there's a limit to contrast. AT which point new tactics are needed (lots of short turns). |
Maybe worth saying a bit more about the short turns thing.
I'm a big advocate for lots of short turns when viz is bad.
There is an obvious reason - it's good to control your speed when you can't see what you are about to encounter!
But the less obvious one is more interesting.
When you can't see much you need to rely on feel more. You get much better feedback through your feet on what the slope is doing when you are turning. In a whiteout, you have a good sense of how you relate to the slope and gravity when you are mid turn, much less when you are running straight. So be midturn more often by turning a lot!
When the visibility is really bad I tend to ski very short pivoted turns, in a narrow corridor close to the piste markers (assuming I'm on piste).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Agree with the short turns.
Had some bad vis in 3V on recent trip and we stuck to mostly blue runs and short turns and really enjoyed it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I too would often use Short Turns in flat light - but I try to keep the skis on edge and use the shape of the ski to turn. This allows the skis to cut through variable terrain without being deflected. In my case, using pivoty Short Swings can see the skis catching in uneven terrain which you cant see.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@jedster, yep,
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I tend to ski very short pivoted turns
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"Shorts swings" - pretty much all pivot, no carve.
@valais2, haha I printed that paper out yesterday afternoon after thinking about this conversation. Great minds and all that.
@Old Fartbag, hmmm, I see the theoretical problem, for me the reality is that carving short turns is not as effective - for the mitigation of zero vis - and if you're doing frequent fast short swings you're actual speed is so low that swinging onto a lump is not nearly such an issue.
All that said, I do tend to avoid zero vis.
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@under a new name, I am not necessarily talking about pure Carved Turns, as there may well not be a clean "Pencil Line" left in the snow - But turning without actively twisting the skis. In other words - turning the way many people do when they think they are carving ie. leaving a slightly smudged Pencil Line.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Old Fartbag, ok, but I truly am talking old skool short swings all pivots and skids. Works best for me 
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@under a new name, …true zero viz is just WEIRD. I know guides who use highly accurate GPS in true zero viz and swear that it’s a life saver. I was in true zero viz on piste a couple of years’ ago with my partner and son…first of all there was the ‘…vomit inducing standing still but think you are moving…’ thing, and when we got over that (and watched the cloud passing between a held-up hand and our faces!)…it was navigate by feel, gradient and knowledge of the ground; and we have a lot of knowledge (20 years’ worth) of the pistes in Crans Montana. Genuine zero viz and the moment we put even two metres between us, each person was becoming obscured and shadowy. We did the ‘ski past each other as piste poles…’ thing, the three of us moving leapfrog slowly down the hill. Ski pass stop, ski pass stop. Since we were on the steepest, iciest piste it was a wee bit challenging. But we made progress. We knew exactly where we were, and logged progress carefully, keeping to the side of the piste so we could tell the difference between piste and not, and to follow the contour of the piste down the hill. Yep, we knew exactly where we were and felt very confident. We picked up an instructor and pupil, so now we were a group of five. Another hundred metres down one of the steepest sections and we are good…AND THEN….the cloud lifted a little and we could see…that we were at least 300m further down the hill than we thought we were. That was a very salutary experience and very unsettling. Very weird…since the piste has distinct steeps and flats. But we were completely confident and completely wrong. As a climber, I don’t like being off route; 300m off route is a Very Bad Thing. Flat light is one thing. True zero viz is something else…
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I thought the standard off piste old skier trick was to take an avalanche probe and duct tape a water bottle or similar onto the end of it, then push it in front of you.
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As a caver I'm used to being off route. Not being able to answer the "precisely where are we?" question is common.
With snowboarding.. I just need to know which side of me the guide's line is.
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@valais2, yeeessssss. That would be disturbing. I have a small stash of horror stories, for me to use when justifying my, "when it's like this I am better off in a bar" attitude.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Would GPS be any help in that situation, @valais2. It would certainly put you a lot more accurate than 300m. I'm more likely to be in a bar, but on one occasion when caught out in very poor vis, on my own, I spotted a red instructor and two lads (so it wasn't zero vis, obvs) and just decided to follow them closely, knowing there was nothing too scary in the vicinity.
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@pam w, It possibly would, as long as the batteries were charged ... (I know a story (not me) ...involved a bivouac while awaiting the weather to lift for heli rescue )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@under a new name, …ah….’GPS in the armpit syndrome’….trying to make the damn batteries work at minus 10
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My take on whiteout skiing:
Sink your wait down and forwards as much as you can (without over bending in the middle and sticking bum out). Peer intently at the ground ahead of your ski tips - you will gradually start to see some bits of of the ground (maybe not a lot, but something is better than nothing), the closer your eyes are to the snow the more they will pick out. Use a long reach forward pole plant and lots of short turns. I find these 2 things allow me to feel more than see whether the next turn is going to be on smooth snow, in a trough or on a bump. The hardest part about skiing in these conditions is absorbing bumps and troughs you can't see and these things work for me. Also if there is more than one of you make someone else go in front and stay really close to them, as you will see from them what is happening and that will be enough for you to time your turns with the features. Funnily enough, years of skiing down in the dark after several beers when I was much younger has given me some ability to go with the flow when you can't really see well ... not that I'm advocating beers as a solution to whiteout skiing.
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So far I haven't read the word confidence. I am continually struck by the variation in my performance in difficult light conditions.
One huge factor for me is "how confident I feel". Relaxed, comfortable, positive and things go well.
Another day ,lack of movement, lack of dynamic and hey - ho backseat and the whole process is poor.
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You know it makes sense.
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you will gradually start to see some bits
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@beeryletcher, that's not a proper whiteout.
@Rogerdodger, good point. Confidence isn't something I have any issues with - but early January, up Grands Montets, whiteout and very lumpy conditions (about 40cms fresh on icy bumps) - and with myself neither fit nor strong for other properly sensible related reasons and I really just could hardly ski. Gave up after half a run.
It wasn't so much that I had a confidence issue but that not being fit nor strong enough and not seeing jackschitt, really, I could barely get down. Pretty hideous.
[Thankfully, a couple of days and another 50cms or so and I did at least get a good few powder turns n in bright sunshine - all the difference in the world in the head (although still not nearly strong/fit enough)]
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| phil_w wrote: |
I thought the standard off piste old skier trick was to take an avalanche probe and duct tape a water bottle or similar onto the end of it, then push it in front of you.
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Climbing sling tied to ski pole works surprisingly well - whip on the snow to see if it suddenly drops off...
Worst thing isn't 'zero' vis. Its low vis with wind blowing surface snow into swirls, ensuring that wherever you look the 'ground' is moving...
Don't think you can claim to be an experienced skier without having been 'stopped' (preferably for a while) only for a piste pole to slide past on its way up the hill...
Generally now I quite like occasionally skiing in poor vis, because it gives good technique feedback - you can't avoid/predict various issues with the snow so have to ski by feel and be correctly balanced to absorb bumps/snow changes rather than seeing and avoiding them... Still not as good as having a good instructor tweaking things, but better than nothing (and when feeling strong a good time to put everything they have been trying to get you to do into practice to see how much better your skiing has gotten)
But that doesn't stop it being hard work or make it better than skiing perfectly smooth knee+ deep powder (or freshly bashed perfect corderoy snow on sharp piste skis if your preferences go that way) under a blue sky and assumes you are good/confident enough to get beyond 'survival' skiing.
I suspect that the hardest part of zero vis is confidence that if/when snow conditions change you will handle it. Problem is the normal response to fear of this is tensing up and backing away from the 'hazard' which guarantees you won't handle it well (and so is self perpetuating) 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Getting disorientated is just a thing. Not everybody gets it to the same extent. You might have to sit some periods out when others are skiing.
What others are alluding to I think is that it is what you do when conditions are fine that will prepare you for the trickier moments. The more time you spend skiing on piste without using your poles, the more you will develop good weight distribution and flex. This is what you need when the light goes flat, not poles. After all, if you can't see the snow, where is your pole going to end up and how do you then cope with that? As someone said above, your pole will touch the snow and give you feedback by just holding them naturally, but it is lots of flex, centre weight and time in the turn that you need and that is developed by practising when visibility is good.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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To put it another way and in the parlance of a previous poster, if you are using your poles in good light you are using stabilisers. If you don't learn to ski without the stabilisers how can you expect to cope when you need to be more proficient?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| 22 dropout wrote: |
| To put it another way and in the parlance of a previous poster, if you are using your poles in good light you are using stabilisers. If you don't learn to ski without the stabilisers how can you expect to cope when you need to be more proficient? |
Sorry, but this is plain wrong. Proper use of poles is nothing like using stabilisers, and in fact is a great technique to use in poor vis to help gauge the coming slope and turn slowly and in control, and enough. Some of the earlier posts in this thread explain how they can be helpful - I think Steve Angus was quite clear in his explanation, for example, so it may be worth going back and re-reading it from scratch.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@22 dropout, as per @Chaletbeauroc, that's just nonsense. (Sorry to be blunt).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| limegreen1 wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
| @valais2, or just do lots of short turns ... |
Yep. (slow as you like and even in a snow plough no matter where or who you are ) just turn turn and keep linked turning. Keeps skier active.. Engaged in the activity. No traversing. Turning is (should be a form of) control..... Definitely the best option. |
Yes absolutely, and keep a low stance (knees bent) to absorb the invisible bumps, since they are the biggest problem in my experience. Skiing right behind someone else helps a lot too, since you can see what the slope is like by their reaction.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| limegreen1 wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
| @valais2, or just do lots of short turns ... |
Yep. (slow as you like and even in a snow plough no matter where or who you are ) just turn turn and keep linked turning. Keeps skier active.. Engaged in the activity. No traversing. Turning is (should be a form of) control..... Definitely the best option. |
Yes absolutely, and keep a low stance (knees bent) to absorb the invisible bumps, since they are the biggest problem in my experience.
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FAQ
