 Poster: A snowHead
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@Dravot, terrible etiquette and a complete waste of the bootfitters time when they could have been serving a non time waster. Why not go straight to snow and rock and see how you get on...then next year when you want boots that fit go to a boot fitter.
A boot fitter wont adjust the boot if it doesn't need adjusting ...which is possible but not that likely. Your suggestion that a boot fitter would adjust and charge for it but snow and rock etc wouldn't need to adjust the boot tells you all you need to know about snow and rock etc
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dravot, if you start at the chain store there's a good chance you would turn up at the boot fitter to be told its the wrong boot for your foot so you would have wasted your money
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 29-07-20 21:05; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you start at the bootfitters you've already wasted the fitters time by them working out what boot you need then you not paying for their time by not buying the boot
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| If you start at the bootfitters you've already wasted the fitters time by them working out what boot you need then you not paying for their time by not buying the boot |
I've seen some boot fitters charge 50-100 for the fitting
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dravot wrote: |
I guess my point is if its a standard boot and the boot fitter is selling it for c£200 more, plus the cost of the boot fitting (£100), is it acceptable to just pay for the boot fitting? |
You won't know if there is a boot that fits "off the shelf", without somebody experienced assessing your feet.
I got my boots fitted with JoJo @ Navada Sports in Tignes - and he didn't charge.
I believe that good fitters in the UK may well charge for the time they spend getting it right - which is what I believe Colin @S4F does. You would pay to see an experienced Physio for a couple of hours - so this is much the same thing, given the skill it requires.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Dravot wrote: |
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| If you start at the bootfitters you've already wasted the fitters time by them working out what boot you need then you not paying for their time by not buying the boot |
I've seen some boot fitters charge 50-100 for the fitting |
The fitting is after you have bought the boot. E.g. shaving bits off, heat moulding to make the boot fit your foot. The time taken to find the find the best boot to start with is covered by the sale of the boot.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Dravot wrote: |
I guess my point is if its a standard boot and the boot fitter is selling it for c£200 more, plus the cost of the boot fitting (£100), is it acceptable to just pay for the boot fitting? |
You won't know if there is a boot that fits "off the shelf", without somebody experienced assessing your feet.
I got my boots fitted with JoJo @ Navada Sports in Tignes - and he didn't charge.
I believe that good fitters in the UK may well charge for the time they spend getting it right - which is what I believe Colin @S4F does. You would pay to see an experienced Physio for a couple of hours - so this is much the same thing, given the skill it requires. |
agreed, I wouldn't mind paying for the service at all, its a highly skilled service after all . What would slightly irk me is then paying considerably more for an identical boot that's avail from elsewhere; I appreciate that the big companies can buy in bulk and we should support small, local businesses etc...but still its ostensibly "paying twice"
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| Dravot wrote: |
agreed, I wouldn't mind paying for the service at all, its a highly skilled service after all . What would slightly irk me is then paying considerably more for an identical boot that's avail from elsewhere; I appreciate that the big companies can buy in bulk and we should support small, local businesses etc...but still its ostensibly "paying twice" |
There are Boot Sellers and there are Boot Fitters. There are lots of the former....and the latter are few and far between.
I suspect many on here have been seduced by a bargain - which has then ended up more costly, or ruined an expensive ski holiday. We have been there and got the T Shirt.
Once somebody puts you in the correct boot, you will understand where we are coming from.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arno wrote: |
| Took me a couple of good professional boot fits to understand what a good fit should feel like. |
^ This....
Confession time : i happily skied for 20 odd years in (various different) pairs of boots that were all probably half a size too big.
Didnt ruin my enjoyment of sport and my feet were comfy. Was none the wiser. Innocence is bliss - though didnt help my skiing.
However in recent years down sized from mondo 28 to 27/27.5.
This equipment change has no doubt improved my technique / ability.
However it has also been in pain in the @rse finding where i need a punch / stretch shells (etc).
Got quite wide feet, so in old days a larger shell was the easiest option available.
The problem with bootfitting is that most of them have no idea what you are feeling. They also dont really know your requirements / comfort threshold / ability - no matter how well you describe them. A good boot fitter is worth weight in gold : sadly the majority of them are Saturday boys with over inflatiated opinion of their own skill set. There is big difference between podiatrist and a boot fitter!
Ultimately you need to take some responsability for process and providing the feedback / figuring out what work needs done. Living in UK this is not easy. Most dont have luxury of skiing boots for half a day and making a small tweak. Plus most (but not all) UK ski shops dont seem to have correct skillset or equipment for fitting-boots properly.... All this in combination makes it a proper mine field. Especially if you have non-standard feet (though what is an average foot!?)
Finally : dont get custom fitted footbeds! Most peoples feet needs to splay naturally in the boot.. Ellis Brigham very good at punting these for 90quid a pair. Waste of time and caused me real problems even though they were sold as a magic solution. Truth is that my feet are *way* comfier with standard blue superfeet.
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One other thing : half the battle is finding a boot that naturally fits your foot shape.
If you select the right one then hopefully no streching / grinding or punching is required!
Paying someone to simply put you in right boot is money well spent.
In ideal world you dont want any "fitting" done (apart from perhaps an initial heat mold of the liners) unless necessary.
Nothing worse than a big powder day / long ski tour being ruined by sore feet.
Been there myself. In such scenario you would happily drop £50-100 to get the poo-poo fixed there and then! 
So best to spend time, effort and money upfront.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| Took me a couple of good professional boot fits to understand what a good fit should feel like. |
^ This....
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I'm definitely in this camp!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Finally : dont get custom fitted footbeds! Most peoples feet needs to splay naturally in the boot.. Ellis Brigham very good at punting these for 90quid a pair. Waste of time and caused me real problems even though they were sold as a magic solution. Truth is that my feet are *way* comfier with standard blue superfeet. |
I agree with most of your post, but not this.
IMO. A footbed that is properly done, is the foundation for a well fitted boot. A poorly done one isn't. It takes a specialist to do it correctly.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 30-07-20 10:09; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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I could have added to my post that it took a good professional boot fit to get a decent footbed, which I now switch from boot to boot. Must have had them for 15 years now! May be worth a review by someone who know what they are doing but they feel ok for now
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dravot, Profeet will work on boots bought elsewhere and charge you for the job (they did this for me a couple of years ago). However, if you turn up with something unsuitable they will probably turn you away or at least warn you that they will do what they can but you have basically wasted your money on something that will never fit properly
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Dravot wrote: |
| agreed, I wouldn't mind paying for the service at all, its a highly skilled service after all . What would slightly irk me is then paying considerably more for an identical boot that's avail from elsewhere; I appreciate that the big companies can buy in bulk and we should support small, local businesses etc...but still its ostensibly "paying twice" |
Disagree with this.
You could have bought the boots in another shop and then seen them €200 cheaper in another shop later. The price of the boot is separate from the bootfitting.
Of course some sports shops say they do "bootfitting" included in the price and all they do is foam/form the liner and sell you a formed insole / "footbed" wether you need it or not. The boots feel great until the overfoamed/formed liner begins to pack out. Been there got the T-shirt.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Finally : dont get custom fitted footbeds! Most peoples feet needs to splay naturally in the boot.. Ellis Brigham very good at punting these for 90quid a pair. Waste of time and caused me real problems even though they were sold as a magic solution. Truth is that my feet are *way* comfier with standard blue superfeet. |
I agree with most of your post, but not this.
IMO. A footbed that is properly done, is the foundation for a well fitted boot. A poorly done one isn't. It takes a specialist to do it correctly. |
Early 2000s it was all the rage to have for beds that perfectly fitted arch. Modern thinking is that foot needs to splay naturally rather than be held in place.
No doubt a proper foot bed matching is essential. But that doesn't necessarily mean an inflexible moulded piece of plastic perfectly moulded to foot which stops the foot pronating.
Fwiw : my feet way happier with standard blue super feet than Ellis Brigham £90 custom foot bed. Though as ever all feet are different!
Custom footbed probably an easily sell for many ski shops (people with sore feet want a solution) : bit unless done right can easily cause more harm than good.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 30-07-20 11:35; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dravot, I effectively did what your are proposing with my last but one purchase. I was a couple of weeks or so from going on my second trip of the season late March and my boots were starting to become a real issue with a split tongue, the inners completely packed out, plastic going, etc. So I went into Ellis Brigham in Milton Keynes and got a sale pair. I was fortunate as there weren't many options but I got a good fitting boot. I think it was £300 reduced to £200 but it was a long time ago so maybe the RRP was lower. Anyhow, there were OK but I still took them to Bicester at the start of the next season for some custom footbeds and some shell modifications - I have bony ankles and a bit of bone growth on the ball of right foot so I bit of shell stretching. So I ended up paying £350 instead of £450 I guess. More recently for my latest boots I went straight to Bicester and just got the whole done in one hit and paid the full price on the boot. It was pre-season so I knew they would have the full range in stock and unlikely to be much discounted on the RRP of the boot, if any at all. But the beauty of the whole thing was that I trusted them, felt comfortable with the process, went on a weekday (day off work) so no rush or hassles and the outcome would be a trouble free boot.
As another take, my wife did lots of searching online, bought a pair, send them back. Another search, bought another pair - a good deal it has to be said. And she is OK using them but has a few niggles and issues. She has expressed a little jealousy at how I've been pain/trouble free from day 1. She may yet go to Bicester and get a bed and get them adjusted I don't know.
Ultimately it's your feet/time/money. You will get people who say they bought online or off the shelf and have had a trouble free run. But it's rare I would say. For most once you've gone to somewhere like Bicester you probably won't go anywhere else. There are other ways to save time and money to offset it, if you need/want to think of it that way. And if you use the boots for 20 weeks/150 days skiing what is the cost.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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As a total beginner, I bought my first pair (Dalbello Avanti 90) from Snow and Rock in the CFe, because the CFe hire ones were crippling. I’ll be honest the choice of boot was heavily influenced by what I could afford. I didn’t know any better. However, I had custom footbeds made and liners heat moulded. Had problems initially with both boots pressing on my ankles, but after a couple of adjustments, they were really comfy, in hindsight maybe too comfy. After time realised they were too slack around my calves (skinny legs), so had booster straps fitted, which helped, but didn’t cure the problem completely.
After two years I decided to get a pair properly fitted in Sail and Ski in Chester (anniversary present from my Mrs). Great service, very thorough. My new boots are far tighter, both around the feet and the calf. The new boots (Dalbello DS120) have heat mouldable liners and shells, with various other adjustments available (cant, ramp and cuff spoiler). Took a few outings to bed in, but what a difference compared to my first pair. They are nowhere near as “comfy” as my old ones; which were like slippers, because the old ones were almost certainly to big in every area. The new boots are very tight, but not to the point of hurting, stopping circulation or pressing on bone and no need for the booster straps, as calves gripped tightly. They make walking more difficult, but they were bought for skiing not walking.
All in all, delighted with the service from Sail and Ski and chuffed to bits with the new boots.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 30-07-20 16:55; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Early 2000s it was all the rage to have for beds that perfectly fitted arch. Modern thinking is that foot needs to splay naturally rather than be held in place.
No doubt a proper foot bed matching is essential. But that doesn't necessarily mean an inflexible moulded piece of plastic perfectly moulded to foot which stops the foot pronating.
Fwiw : my feet way happier with standard blue super feet than Ellis Brigham £90 custom foot bed. Though as ever all feet are different!
Custom footbed probably an easily sell for many ski shops (people with sore feet want a solution) : bit unless done right can easily cause more harm than good. |
Your clarification is fair enough. The issue I had was the rather definitive statement of, "Don't get Custom fitted footbeds".
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Dravot, ok so you see the boot in the boot fitters at its RRP of lets say £400 then you see it in a chain at £200 in the sale.... a lot depends on when you are looking and what you are looking at.... lets ignore the cost of boot fitting footbeds etc and look at the pure shelf price of the boot the RRP is £400, the boot remains the same from season 19/20 into 20/21 the boot fitter will sit on the little bit of stock they may have left its current product and possibly adjust their buying to suit the fact that they have a few of model X in size Y left in stock, the chain store will work a little differently.. the accounts department works on this boot being 19/20 stock and it should go in the sale, irrespective of it being current stock for 20/21 it was bought for 19/20 didn't sell in season so is discounted out of season.... strangely enough when new season starts again (often 1st october for the big stores) the price will go back up to the normal £400 and it will be absorbed into the stock levels
if the boot is a colour change only (and often a minor one) the independent or boot fitter will normally offer a bit off, if the boot changes completely then they will give a bigger discount
in my business we look at things in a slightly different way, the boot is the accessory, what we sell is fit, the comfort and performance, and what that entails is finding a product of appropriate shape/size and flex to go around the foot of the user, example when atomic changed from the old hawx prime to the new light weight version the fit changed dramatically, we actually went out and bought up a few pairs of the old shape, they all sold at full price despite being a season out of date, WHY? because they fit the people we put them on better than the new version
so this is where you make the decision, do i want the boot i like the look of that i can possibly buy cheap, or do i want to trust the boot fitter to put you in the best boot for your foot shape, body weight, level length, skier level and needs and to work with them to make subtle adjustments as needed to get the very best out of the product
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@CEM speaks the truth - you can buy cheap or you can buy bespoke. You have to be extremely lucky for the two things to be the same (& IME not all bespoke is equal)
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@Dave of the Marmottes, this.
@CEM, do you still stock the original (? '89) Technica TNT (pink with green highlighted buckles?) in around a 25.5 ?? And if you do, can you also retro fit my 25 year old liverand cardio potential? Thanks.
Oh and lime green SOS pants and a purple Degre7 jacket wouldn't go amiss.
Just askin'.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
IMO. A footbed that is properly done, is the foundation for a well fitted boot. A poorly done one isn't. It takes a specialist to do it correctly. |
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Early 2000s it was all the rage to have for beds that perfectly fitted arch. Modern thinking is that foot needs to splay naturally rather than be held in place.
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you must have read up on more podiatry texts than me
the latest thinking is that different materials give different feedback responses from the proprioceptors of the foot, texture and firmness are often more important that actual shape
no piece of plastic and foam is ever going to be able to stop your foot from pronating, that is simply not how orthotics and footbeds work
in essence the idea of the footbed inside a ski boot is to reduce elongation of the foot (stop your toes smacking the front) and to spread load across the entire plantar surface of the foot, the key thought is doing it properly, understanding that different foot flexibility requires different material flexibility, at world cup competition level some athletes have a fairly rigid device in the boot, others have the stock insole that comes inside the boot, its a preference thing, but at that level they are tuned into their bodies a lot better than most skiers ever will be.
if made properly then a custom device will 99 times out of 100 give a better result than an off the shelf product, but when in doubt about the person making it, an off the shelf product is a whole lot better than nothing and not going to do any harm (the custom products used in skiing are designed to 'do no harm' this doesnt mean that they never hurt, but it is knowing how to solve the problem)
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FAQ
