 Poster: A snowHead
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
And the UK still not monitoring the health of people coming in to the UK.
My partner's sister just returned to London Heathrow after a week in Dubai.
No checks in place at the airport.
I returned to the UK at the end of February after a winter in Hokkaido, Japan and transiting through Seoul and Amsterdam.
No checks in place at Cardiff Airport.
I would love for someone to explain this to me.
Especially in light of us going in to lockdown. |
This is just barking mad imho. All travellers from more infected areas or coming from airports in or serving more infected areas, should be asked to self isolate by default. This is just common sense. The passenger details should also be taken, with phone follow ups, etc, etc, to ensure knowledge & compliance.
This was & is the only sensible thing to do imho, if you want to control the spread of the virus in your country, and limit it's worst impacts.
P.s. the UK reaction was 10-14 critical days late, the lack of airport surveillance & traveller health info (I.e self isolation advice, etc) is really dumb, and the London Underground situation is an avoidable, negligent, public health disgrace in a country that has just had to go into full lockdown!?
P.s. Ischgl & St Anton have serious questions to answer imho. They should be forced to answer them too, and those most responsible sanctioned appropriately. Why!? What happens if there's another global pandemic next year? Or in a few years time!?!
Unlikely, what if this Corona virus mutates like most flus do? We might have CV mk2, CV mk3, etc yet!? If we put up with this kind of alleged flagrant disregard for the health of patrons of ski resorts, by those responsible for the public health of the resort & it's hosteleries, that would be an implicit acceptance of similar wilful negligence, and resultant unnecessary suffering & deaths in similar situations into the future.
P.p.s. Ischgl, in particular, seems to have been a source of infection for many other areas in Europe. If there was wilful negligence involved, which can be proven, there may well be harsh legal implications for the resort and the individuals concerned. That's what happens when you knowingly gamble recklessly with other people's health.... 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 25-03-20 0:03; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| Mjit wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
From a mate living in Verbier
His words, not mine
"Greedy fuc***g Romanian quack in the village charging fortunes for testing...disgrace.
We're well past any peak...and yes I think the asymptomatic comment fair,
we've all had it over half term and barely noticed...aches, low energy, loss of smell....3 days....a load of bo**ocks." |
Humm, not the classic symptoms of Covid19 - and if they all had it at half term that must make it about the first place in Europe to have an infection (Italy's first case was only at the very end of Jan and it would take a few weeks for everyone, even in a ski resort, to catch it). If I were a betting man and everyone in a ski resort caught something that had different symptoms to Covid19 and caught it before Covid19 had really got a grip on Europe I'd put my money on that being a different winter bug. |
Quite possibly |
The confirmed cases in Les Contamines were 8th February, which means contracted at the beginning of Feb, 2 weeks before half term. Very possible that it was doing the rounds in Verbier by half term, especially as Geneva was, and still is a hotspot (a lot of maids, nanny's etc are unregistered migrants and couldn't get treatment for fear of discovery when they got it). Mind you, it's the first time I've heard loss of smell as a symptom. Fortunately, last time I checked I still smell!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skitech wrote: |
| Various texts from Crystal, one saying we would be given face masks at Innsbruck....Through check in and security, no one giving out masks, no staff wearing them. A few signs to say cough/sneeze in to tissues and throw them away and dont put things in your mouth. In departure lounge, there was a few with face masks on. The only airport worker I saw in a mask/gloves was in Passport control, his colleague sat next to him wore no PPE. So it appeared the info going around was either just being ignored or not being taken seriously. |
Or maybe you didn't get masks/most people weren't wearing them at the airport because the facts, rather than the info got around before you got there.
Face masks are good for infected people as they help stop you passing the infection on. This is why surgons wear them when performing operations, to stop them infecting the patient.
Face masks are terrible for 'clean' people as they quickly become warm and moist from the wearer's breathing, which makes them an almost perfect virus capture and incubation devices. This is why the preferred PPE for someone dealing with known infected people is the clear plastic full face shield.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Earliest known Covid-19 case so far in UK may have been as early as mid January. Man returning from Ischgl. Rest of his family then had virus. As did other friends in his group, who returned to Denmark and USA.
As some have said, a thorough investigation of what happened is vital, if lessons are to be learned.
Regardless of ‘blame’ the important point is that we do everything possible to avoid anything like this again.
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Seems like Ischgl might be the source of UKs patient zero if the Telegraph is correct, back in mid January.
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As fas as I can see, an investigation has now begun:
https://www.tt.com/artikel/16796969/tiroler-krisenmanagement-ischgl-wehrt-sich-behoerde-unter-druck
The first notification was not made until 7th March. It seems that the potential spread of the virus was massively underestimated, and that a change of staff and a deep clean would solve the problem.
The other problem was the guests spreading the virus to other areas (translated):
| Quote: |
| The fact that after the quarantine was imposed, the departure of the guests on Friday two weeks ago was partly chaotic, already caused an aftershock. As is now reported, hundreds of guests from the Paznaun or St. Anton still used Saturday to ski in other well-known ski resorts in the Oberland. Sunday was the first day that the ski resort was closed. Above all, employees of the lift companies are said to have been horrified. |
Perfectly understandable. ”Ischgl's been shut, where else can we go?” Not exactly the ideal result.
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If you look at global figures, not surprisingly, there are lots of cases in business cities with a lot of travellers coming and going. London, New Yotk etc.
The winter tourist season is very much focussed on the Alps. Resorts like Ischgl were always going to be hot spots - a young crowd, many in their physical prime who would barely know they had it. Everyone going to bars, very close proximity.
Whether or not Iscgly knew they had a case and covered it up is a different matter.
If Iceland had pointed this out, and people deliberately tried to deny it then that is pretty awful.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ster wrote: |
| Seems like Ischgl might be the source of UKs patient zero if the Telegraph is correct, back in mid January. |
Yes, back in Sussex after some hectic beer pong sessions at the Kitzloch. If this is the case then a the UK figures for the spread of the disease need some serious reworking, as 2-3 weeks of unchecked transmission ( as they weren't really aware of the implications at the time ) would change all the numbers they are basing things on.
Rather than the first UK transmission happening circa 10th Feb, there could well have been 500 people in the UK with it by then, on a basis of it doubling every 2 days with no isolation or constraints at all.
Even after that , doubling every 4 days ,say, there should be about a million people with it or had it at the very least.
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| PeakyB wrote: |
Regardless of ‘blame’ the important point is that we do everything possible to avoid anything like this again. |
Problem is "everything possible" means severely restricted lives e.g. no skiing or holidays outside the UK for UK residents, no business travel
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, perhaps ‘everything reasonable’ would have been a better phrase than ‘everything possible’.
Life is always a balance between risks and benefits. I certainly hope the outcome isn’t as drastic as no travel outside of UK.
Nevertheless, considering the situation we’re in now, and for the foreseeable future, maybe some big sacrifices will have to be made?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I see Rural police forces at stopping people for driving out to remote locations to walk their dogs .
Ludicrous. Every police stop is another interaction. People are far safer walking their dog in a deserted place than past twenty other people in the street
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
I see Rural police forces at stopping people for driving out to remote locations to walk their dogs .
Ludicrous. Every police stop is another interaction. People are far safer walking their dog in a deserted place than past twenty other people in the street |
Depends on people's idea of a walk I guess, a member of cave/fell rescue around here persuaded a couple that heading up Pen-Y-Ghent at this moment in time probably wasn't the best idea. Also, does it fall under the heading of 'necessary trip'...
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You know it makes sense.
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
I see Rural police forces at stopping people for driving out to remote locations to walk their dogs .
Ludicrous. Every police stop is another interaction. People are far safer walking their dog in a deserted place than past twenty other people in the street |
That worked well in Snowdonia at the weekend - "busiest day in living memory" apparently! Bit tongue in cheek as I actually agree completely with what you're saying, unfortunately (as was demonstrated last weekend) the public will take liberties and view it as a way of having a trip out. The government guidance is for "no non-essential travel to be made" and that you shouldn't drive to exercise. The public just need to follow the guidelines.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Handy Turnip wrote: |
| ... The government guidance is for "no non-essential travel to be made" and that you shouldn't drive to exercise. The public just need to follow the guidelines. |
I don't think that is correct. "No non-essential travel" applies to public transport. There is no prohibition on driving to get to exercise, provided that social distancing guidelines are adhered to, and appropriate care is taken if you need to stop, e.g. for fuel. Not saying it is sensible, or morally acceptable, to drive 100 miles to exercise, but AFAIK at present it is still allowed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| eblunt wrote: |
| ster wrote: |
| Seems like Ischgl might be the source of UKs patient zero if the Telegraph is correct, back in mid January. |
Yes, back in Sussex after some hectic beer pong sessions at the Kitzloch. If this is the case then a the UK figures for the spread of the disease need some serious reworking, as 2-3 weeks of unchecked transmission ( as they weren't really aware of the implications at the time ) would change all the numbers they are basing things on.
Rather than the first UK transmission happening circa 10th Feb, there could well have been 500 people in the UK with it by then, on a basis of it doubling every 2 days with no isolation or constraints at all.
Even after that , doubling every 4 days ,say, there should be about a million people with it or had it at the very least. |
Interesting. If so then we could be well ahead of where it was thought we were, then infections/deaths levels better than thought given the longer period without controls on spread?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| Handy Turnip wrote: |
| ... The government guidance is for "no non-essential travel to be made" and that you shouldn't drive to exercise. The public just need to follow the guidelines. |
I don't think that is correct. "No non-essential travel" applies to public transport. There is no prohibition on driving to get to exercise, provided that social distancing guidelines are adhered to, and appropriate care is taken if you need to stop, e.g. for fuel. Not saying it is sensible, or morally acceptable, to drive 100 miles to exercise, but AFAIK at present it is still allowed. |
Nope, as Mike Pow has said. You don't need to jump in your car and drive for 100 miles to go for a walk with your dog or family. I see families walking around our little estate for a bit of exercise and individuals or couples pounding the local streets, which I regard as more than adequate.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| halfhand wrote: |
| ecureuil wrote: |
| Handy Turnip wrote: |
| ... The government guidance is for "no non-essential travel to be made" and that you shouldn't drive to exercise. The public just need to follow the guidelines. |
I don't think that is correct. "No non-essential travel" applies to public transport. There is no prohibition on driving to get to exercise, provided that social distancing guidelines are adhered to, and appropriate care is taken if you need to stop, e.g. for fuel. Not saying it is sensible, or morally acceptable, to drive 100 miles to exercise, but AFAIK at present it is still allowed. |
Nope, as Mike Pow has said. You don't need to jump in your car and drive for 100 miles to go for a walk with your dog or family. I see families walking around our little estate for a bit of exercise and individuals or couples pounding the local streets, which I regard as more than adequate. |
Depends where you live. I had 4 joggers breath over me today and had to cross the road about twenty times to try and avoid people, sometimes unsuccessfully
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Exactly, This is local police notice. A badly thought out one where local forces have misinterpreted guidelines.
travelling down the road to walk your dog is far more sensible than everyone doing it together in the same streets.
It is about isolation and lack of humna contact not travel. Non essential travel is going off to do something that is non essential. Exercise is classed as essential today.
As I said in the post. The police stopping cars is just adding to the problem as they are interacting with lots of people.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Exactly, This is local police notice. A badly thought out one where local forces have misinterpreted guidelines.
travelling down the road to walk your dog is far more sensible than everyone doing it together in the same streets.
It is about isolation and lack of humna contact not travel. Non essential travel is going off to do something that is non essential. Exercise is classed as essential today.
As I said in the post. The police stopping cars is just adding to the problem as they are interacting with lots of people. |
The same answer I gave to the 'isolation rental property' thread, if one person does it it's fine.
Unfortunately if one person does it, then everyone will do it.
One in, all in.
One out, all out.
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But shouldn't "patient zero" be patient one"? 
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| Quote: |
The police stopping cars is just adding to the problem as they are interacting with lots of people
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But they'll be keeping their (social) distance  . I don't get why you don't get this? Stop trying to game the system and just sit tight for a couple of weeks.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Depends where you live. I had 4 joggers breath over me today and had to cross the road about twenty times to try and avoid people, sometimes unsuccessfully |
Pull the other one. Person out and about has a go at other people out and about. I'm feeling a bit claustrophobic as well, do you reckon I should pack my tent and drive to the Lake District?
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Another article partly about Ischgl (if you dont read German you will have to use Google translate) https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/coronavirus-die-gefahr-der-superspreader-a-ed6e694e-8691-4d14-a299-6062b94dd2f4 .
Interesting about the football matches too (point made about the Liverpool Madrid game earlier) and the connection between Italy and Spain (though this is pretty speculative)
There seems little doubt now large numbers of visitors contacted the virus whilst in Ischgl and other Austrian resorts and carried it home. Most probably never knew as the symptoms were few or non existent. The point in the article about Hamburg is interesting too. Hamburg has the second highest number of infections in Germany (Munich is the highest) and the largest group with the infection is men between 30 & 59 just the age group who typically go skiing & drinking (detailed breakdown of the German figures here https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/478220a4c454480e823b17327b2bf1d4/page/page_1/). Perhaps the sample size is too small to really know but the percentage for males between 30 & 59 is much higher than the national numbers.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This is just silly. It was out of the bag by the time it was in Ischgl. You can blame the authorities there as much as you like, but they won't have caused a single case of it that wouldn't have happened anyway.
All these precautions are silly as it won't be over until everybody in the world has been exposed to it. The sooner that happens, the sooner the world can start turning again. (And yes, you want to squash the peak to spread the load on the NHS.) But I've had it, and so many friends have either had it, or have confessed to me that they think that they might have had it, that I wouldn't be surprised if half of London's population have had it already as Prof Gupta's assumptions assume.
A virus that is as easily spread as this one (on account of being infectious before symptoms start) must be everywhere by now.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@James the Last, this is the problem do no antibodies test. You can’t be sure you have had it without - there are many other illness out there.
I agree with what you are saying but we need to be more sure than “think”. Without testing people who “think” they have it when they have it, you need to prove it afterwards.
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| James the Last wrote: |
This is just silly. It was out of the bag by the time it was in Ischgl. You can blame the authorities there as much as you like, but they won't have caused a single case of it that wouldn't have happened anyway.
All these precautions are silly as it won't be over until everybody in the world has been exposed to it. The sooner that happens, the sooner the world can start turning again. (And yes, you want to squash the peak to spread the load on the NHS.) But I've had it, and so many friends have either had it, or have confessed to me that they think that they might have had it, that I wouldn't be surprised if half of London's population have had it already as Prof Gupta's assumptions assume.
A virus that is as easily spread as this one (on account of being infectious before symptoms start) must be everywhere by now. |
Which do you prefer, a situation where the medical resources of e.g London are so overwhelmed that the doctors have to start applying triage and make decisions about who gets to live (gets a ventilator) and who is left to die? Or do you think it's better try to flatten the curve such that the medical resources are sufficient to treat everyone? I can tell you which option I prefer. I can also tell which option is currently being applied in Italy and what is about to happen in USA will make Italy look like a walk in the park
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| eblunt wrote: |
| Yes, back in Sussex after some hectic beer pong sessions at the Kitzloch. |
Christ it must have been a quite week in the Kitzloch if you were able to play beer pong. Think it was only our second time in the Kitzloch when we dicided to stay post-apres for food that we realised they had tables and chairs in the place, and that it wasn't just standing room only for apres! Usually it's too packed for a train to move to the 'Gedink-a-dink' song and needs quite a quiet week for there to be floor space for the Scandi's to have room to sit on the floor for the little rubber boat song.
Yes, I think I might be suffering apres ski withdrawal symptoms having missed my Austria trip this year.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Stay at home is pretty clear imo.....exercise from home.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Stopping people especially.vulnerable ones from going to remote areas to exercise is crazy. I live in a city . I went a walk yesterday and crossed the road about 29 times to avoid others. I was breathed on by 3 joggers who went by me
I could have popped on the car, driven 10 minutes and been in a field or woods on my own and not met a soul on my whole.joureny.
This is all about isolation and non human contact and reducing human contact.
If you travel a couple of miles in a car to be able to do something without human contact then you are far better of doing it.
I think some.police shiefs haven't grasped the guidelines properly.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On the subject of the original post, I'm hearing things are terrible and deteriorating in New Orkeans where the Mardis Gras has is suspected as being the perfect breeding ground for tbe virus.
I'm sure, I hindsight, Crufts and the Cheltenham Festival will be seen as things that would have been better off not running.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Stopping people especially.vulnerable ones from going to remote areas to exercise is crazy. I live in a city . I went a walk yesterday and crossed the road about 29 times to avoid others. I was breathed on by 3 joggers who went by me
I could have popped on the car, driven 10 minutes and been in a field or woods on my own and not met a soul on my whole.joureny.
This is all about isolation and non human contact and reducing human contact.
If you travel a couple of miles in a car to be able to do something without human contact then you are far better of doing it.
I think some.police shiefs haven't grasped the guidelines properly. |
Pretty soon you'll only be able to walk from your front door to the kerb and and back
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Stopping people especially.vulnerable ones from going to remote areas to exercise is crazy. I live in a city . I went a walk yesterday and crossed the road about 29 times to avoid others. I was breathed on by 3 joggers who went by me
I could have popped on the car, driven 10 minutes and been in a field or woods on my own and not met a soul on my whole.joureny.
This is all about isolation and non human contact and reducing human contact.
If you travel a couple of miles in a car to be able to do something without human contact then you are far better of doing it.
I think some.police shiefs haven't grasped the guidelines properly. |
Pretty soon you'll only be able to walk from your front door to the kerb and and back |
Maybe, although some existing health issues need to be able to get fresh air and exercise to stay healthy.
I think the lock of lockdown in London.and Tube travel, construction staying open will be a decision that will be regretted in hindsight.
I think the construction was maybe a political decision. Most are self employed contractors and Boris very much relied on the White Van man vote. To lay them all off with no payment on the table at the time was not a good idea. Possibly a Cummingsism. Keeping construction sites open was not vital to infrastructure.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
On the subject of the original post, I'm hearing things are terrible and deteriorating in New Orkeans where the Mardis Gras has is suspected as being the perfect breeding ground for tbe virus.
I'm sure, I hindsight, Crufts and the Cheltenham Festival will be seen as things that would have been better off not running.
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And Bath Half
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Pretty soon you'll only be able to walk from your front door to the kerb and and back |
| Quote: |
Maybe, although some existing health issues need to be able to get fresh air and exercise to stay healthy.
I think the lock of lockdown in London.and Tube travel, construction staying open will be a decision that will be regretted in hindsight.
I think the construction was maybe a political decision. Most are self employed contractors and Boris very much relied on the White Van man vote. To lay them all off with no payment on the table at the time was not a good idea. Possibly a Cummingsism. Keeping construction sites open was not vital to infrastructure. |
Well unless one has a tunnel from their front door to the kerb then this is fresh air. Laps.
Agreed. And not screening people coming in to the UK. Regardless of their nationality.
Agreed.
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How poo-poo must things have got that Michael Gove is last man standing?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
