@harrim51, I heard one story that Bristol airport was built in that location to specifically be awkward to land, i.e for training pilots in poor conditions Although I've never had a problem flying to/from there.
@chocksaway, while pilot quals aren't relevant, airline SOPs are. I know a BA E190 Captain. Recently we were talking about unusual approaches/airports and Chambery came up. Before BA crew can operate in to it they have to have specific briefings and perform a number of flights before being 'signed off' to land there.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
When I worked at giving away the taxpayer's money in the Caribbean we were asked to improve safety of the airport at Roseau, Dominica. The civil aviation consultant, who had a fair bit of third world experience just looked at it (he might just have looked at a map, I can't remember), said "you can't put an airport here" and declined to make any recommendations other than closing it.
I've often used Chambery but never on a Saturday, even on less busy weeks.
@Gaza, You are right, I was going to post that link, but thought it may be a bit much. As a Cat C airport they all have to have special training - TUI will be no exception. Same as Sion and Innsbruck - airports and mountains.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
davidof wrote:
chocksaway wrote:
@albob, Nope, its all about geography and the big hill at the end of the runway..
There is a lake at one end of the runway and a town at the other. Which gives a bit of leeway. You've got 20k of flat water. There are hills either side though. I will have to check but I think chambery lacks a fog landing system cat3 ILS which they have at Geneva. Maybe this is the issue? If you were choosing places to build airports then GVA and Grenoble both suffer from fog... As does Lyon to s lesser extent. Chambery suffers from a lot of crosswinds.
No fog at Grenoble Domene airport today 30km to the south.
That tells some of the story! Despite the town at the end of the southern end of the lake the height of the hills mean that an approach cannot be made to the runway 36 from that direction as the approach angle would be too steep for an airliner, OK for a bug smasher but not a 737 full of skiers. So you have to make an approach over the lake to 18, if there is a northerly wind the aircraft can follow the 18 approach and then do a circling turn over the city to land on 36 (even a 10 kt wind from the north would generally require this as the runway is too short. This of course can only happen in nice weather, luckily when its foggy its normally not windy!
So now we are in cloud coming down over the lake on a foggy day. To be able to safely overshoot in cloud and miss the mountains to the south the overshoot has to be initiated much further out from the runway than would be normal at an airfield in the middle of a huge plain. So in this instance a CAT 3 ILS would not help, yes it would get you closer to the runway (even to it) but an overshoot would be potentially catastrophic. Why might an overshoot be necessary - truck on the runway (yes it happens), ILS signal fails, failure in the aircraft. All super safe yes, but that's why flying is safe.
Off skiing now - so if this prompts any questions then I'll answer them later.
I don't understand why Chambery is used.
Grenoble airport - not that much further away is largely under used and I understand is so quiet it may well close.
Normally Chambery would close - I guess French economics are at play?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
This shows when highly experienced pilots get it wrong. Skiathos is a 'Captain Only' landing airport. The captain on this particular flight was very experienced and held a senior position with BA CityFlyer.
He landed before the threshold but got away with it. A few feet lower and he tail would have struck the fence.
I pity the First Officer in this case. He probably knew they should have binned the landing and went round but given the seniority and position of the Captain he would have been in a very difficult position.
I pity the First Officer in this case. He probably knew they should have binned the landing and went round but given the seniority and position of the Captain he would have been in a very difficult position.
Every pilot, when they start their career, completes a CRM (crew resource management) course, this gives even new pilots the skills to question/challenge (in a non confrontational way) the other pilots actions. Be reassured the large majority of first officers have and will speak up in UK aviation, it’s the Far East and eastern bloc where legacy problems still remain.
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boredsurfin wrote:
I don't understand why Chambery is used.
Grenoble airport - not that much further away is largely under used and I understand is so quiet it may well close.
Normally Chambery would close - I guess French economics are at play?
I’m guessing Chambery has cheaper landing fees and handling fees for the airlines operating into there versus a major international airport like Geneva but don’t have the exact info to hand, weather delays is considered a variable cost when the “bean counters” are looking at the fixed operating costs for the year ahead.
For Chambery, all Captains have to complete simulator training and a training flight to qualify to land at Chambery, Innsbruck is the same but applies to both Captains and First Officers.
Looking at the minimum descent altitude (the lowest you can fly the aircraft before seeing the runway for landing) for the southerly runway at Chambery, it’s obvious why the smaller and slower BA city express E190 can land whereas the larger and faster on final approach Boeing 737 can’t when the cloud base is low.
It’s very difficult to explain this to a Passenger when they can see aircraft landing and you tell them that you can’t !
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Grenoble is further than Chambery from many popular ski destinations. It's even quite a long way from Grenoble!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
pam w wrote:
Grenoble is further than Chambery from many popular ski destinations. It's even quite a long way from Grenoble!
You forget to mention....It’s also bloody terrible.
I’d pick Lyon any day of the week if I was planning a trip to that part of the world for a ski holiday. Most major resorts reached in 3ish hours. Similar distance as Grenoble but it’s an actual airport, not a glorified cow shed next to some tarmac in a field.
I’d rather drive/transfer and extra hour/90 minutes than sit at an airport/circle in a plane/divert.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
There was talk of Grenoble closing but about 10 years ago. Recently there has been a sharp increase in flights including weekdays. Still seasonal though.
Friends were due to arrive here yesterday from Manchester via Chambery. Now (possibly) flying late tonight to Lyon and (possibly) transferring here tomorrow.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Fridge03, Agree totally with comments about Lyon. Biometric passport control, no need to queue for passport control before departures, proper restaurants, club lounge for those eligible, plenty of space, well worth the extra transfer time.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Weekend flying always has been a nightmare as airports are maxed on doors and capacity, not to mention the roads, 3 hours from Geneva to Tignes regularly takes 5+ hours.
Solution, I’ve not flown on a weekend for about 10 years. The flights are often cheaper and the roads always quieter ( avoid rush hour in Geneva)
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
To be fair to the TOs (something I'm loath to do, but here goes ...) surely the reason they use 'secondary' airports like Grenoble, Bergamo etc. is that there's simply not the capacity at the big hubs like Geneva? So it's not a matter of "Why do they choose such fog-bound, topographically-difficult, low-tech, low-capacity airports?" but more "What's the alternative if GVA etc. are full to capacity?".
My point would still be that even if they're simply forced out of necessity to use second-rate airports during the key weeks of the winter season, it's not like they aren't aware of the issues. We flew into Bergamo once. Very fog-prone. On the way back we spent 4h on the transfer bus, decamped, checked-in, then flights cancelled due to fog, so reclaimed the luggage, hung around, then onto a transfer to Milan. On the bus to Milan I talked to the Rep who said "It's often like this in Bergamo, probably 1 in four weekends this season, in my experience. That's why we all bring along some food and drink just in case." I saw that his rucksack was well-provisioned. "And your customers? Like we've got at east ten families with young kids here and Bergamo airport catering ran out after about 5 minutes. Do you make provision for them too?" He just looked at me blankly .... Not his fault, really. But obviously his employers couldn't be bothered to do the most basic training and weren't prepared to spend the money on contingency provisions. After that and the Crystal experience, we changed to driving down and organising the whole thing ourselves.
That's not to say we haven't had some great holidays with TOs. Not just the package, but we've had reps from Neilson for example handle tricky problems extremely well on more than one occasion. Obviously well-trained and authorised to spend money on supporting customers when things went wrong, were well-informed on what was happening and had a good working relationship with local services as well. It's just that for us, the odds of a bad experience became too high in comparison with organising things for ourselves. But obviously, this is just a subjective experience.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
This is one of the major risks of Chembery airport. Its always a potential risk, its amazing given how often it happens, normally at least once or twice its a complete lock out that they don't all have plans or even information to give to people when it does happen.
Touch wood in all the flights into there we've had in only 1 we spent 3 hours in the air, then had to land at Grenoble only for the captain to have to pay on his credit card for fuel as the airline didn't have an agreement with the airport. Thankfully it was back when we didn't have small ones.
Its fascinating to look at the landing boards and how BA and FlyBe managed to land virtually all their flights but TUI didn't land any.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@2planks, Hello - not heard from you for a while - thanks for the real expert opinions. I had a shufty at Landing, Parking and Pax handling charges - in order from expensive to cheap GVA, LYS, CMF and then GNB so economics comes into play.
@LaForet, Correct Geneva and Lyon are operating at capacity, especially Geneva with a single runway. So if we want to fly from UK to this part of the World on a Saturday then Chambery and Grenoble it is. Sadly Grenoble is also at capacity on a Saturday, their website has slimmed down a bit, but it used to say they could only handle up to 8x737 size ac at once. Yesterday 31 flights came and went with little hassle. At Chambery 24 were planned but half are much smaller ac - the E190s from BA and the Flybe Dash 8s.
The answer would be (and I have mentioned this before) would be to forget Chambery and invest in a larger parking area and a bigger terminal at Grenoble. The aviation side is as well founded as most UK regional airports but I guess inter departmental pride has something to do with it. But Grenoble is busy for around 40 days a year and Chambery 20 days a year so demanding 'international airport' standards is a little naïve because of the challenges of return on investment.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@chocksaway, hello, been lurking, wishing the conty high would do one
@Rob_Quads, look at my previous post, it’s due to the fact that smaller and lower aircraft have a lower landing minima (cloud base) so whilst a 737 cant land, a little E190/Q400 could.
I think the best option is just go to Austria, Italy etc, instead
One could fly to Paris Friday evening, and then get a sleeper train to Briancon for a stay in Serre Chevalier - and ski on the Saturday.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Have been to chambery twice, and Lyon and grenoble many times, they are all pretty poorly organised compared to any UK airports I have used, we once had a 12 hour delay at grenoble due to a plane dripping fuel from its wing, spent most of the time sat on the floor, not good but that's life. It's the Frence way, they dont tend to do customer service, we drive these days much better
For me the issue is not Chambery .. it is the fact that this happens year on year (regularly) and Crystal continue to pile risk on by pushing the capacity limit with no Plan B to cover the problem. They could easily of put a Plan B in place yesterday!
Until Crystal feel the true cost of the risk they take they will continue to push beyond limits
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@crosbie, only if one is within reasonable reach of an airport which flies that route.
On a good, clear journey I can make it to LGW in 3 hours, though usually I need to allow 4 at least. BRS I can do in about 90 minutes, but still have to allow time to park plus the standard 2 hours for check in/security etc.
It's all well and good people smugly pointing out that other travel options are available, but for many of us we are stuck with flying and Sat-Sat , that's why routes are busy on those days.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Phyllis Stein wrote:
For me the issue is not Chambery .. it is the fact that this happens year on year (regularly) and Crystal continue to pile risk on by pushing the capacity limit with no Plan B to cover the problem. They could easily of put a Plan B in place yesterday!
Until Crystal feel the true cost of the risk they take they will continue to push beyond limits
This is true. And from the comments and posts I’ve seen on this via various forums/social media the anger isn’t at the fog/Chambrey but Crystals complete lack of contingency or communication.
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Quote:
My point would still be that even if they're simply forced out of necessity to use second-rate airports during the key weeks of the winter season, it's not like they aren't aware of the issues. We flew into Bergamo once. Very fog-prone. On the way back we spent 4h on the transfer bus, decamped, checked-in, then flights cancelled due to fog, so reclaimed the luggage, hung around, then onto a transfer to Milan. On the bus to Milan I talked to the Rep who said "It's often like this in Bergamo, probably 1 in four weekends this season, in my experience. That's why we all bring along some food and drink just in case." I saw that his rucksack was well-provisioned. "And your customers? Like we've got at least ten families with young kids here and Bergamo airport catering ran out after about 5 minutes. Do you make provision for them too?" He just looked at me blankly .... Not his fault, really. But obviously his employers couldn't be bothered to do the most basic training and weren't prepared to spend the money on contingency provisions. After that and the Crystal experience, we changed to driving down and organising the whole thing ourselves.
Had a similar experience at Chambery, except we actually had small kids with us. We were dragged out of bed at a ridiculous hour for our transfer, and chalet/ hotel did not provide any early breakfast as promised, and it was much too early for the boulangerie. After being dumped from the minibus in a snow storm in Aime bus station for about an hour, we were finally picked up in another coach. Still no sign of a rep. We ended up at Chambery around 10am with several flights already delayed and a mile long queue for check-in. By the time we'd done that, the catering was virtually non-existent and mainly sold out. We exhausted the supply of chocolate and water and managed to find the kids a microwaved jacket potato each. We eventually left after a 5 hour delay. Reps hiding in their little 'office', drinking coffee and eating sandwiches. Our last tour op dependent ski holiday.
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I have been going with Crystal and to Chambery (on and off) for many years. I have been mostly lucky with Chambery, but when things go badly, Crystal's response has mostly been somewhat ineffective and chaotic.
I have certainly not experienced anything like the kind of mayhem seen this weekend.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@SnoodlesMcFlude, not smugly, but helpfully pointing out alternatives to those interested in how to mitigate the perils of Chambery, etc.
I've had many flight problems in my time. My record is about 40 hours at an airport waiting to fly (including 6 hours in an airport hotel during that time), so I know it's not fun.
If you can get to an airport to fly to Chambery, then I'd hazard that airport is likely to fly to Paris. And Paris is less likely to be closed due to fog. There are also non-sleeper trains from Paris direct to other parts of the Alps, e.g. Moutiers, etc.
Either you change Crystal (almost impossible) or you change your travel (doable).
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@crosbie, I've put teenagers on a flight to Paris from Newcastle, and an overnight train to Briancon in the past (and on the return trip on another occasion). Worked really smoothly. Train from CGD to Gare d'Austerlitz, then steak frites and beer in the station restaurant, and picked them up from the station at 8am. Or at least we would have done if the diesel car hadn't waxed up in the -22c overnight temperatures. Sorted quickly with a taxi though. Still better than Crystal would have dealt with it.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Hells Bells, yes, there are risks in all methods of travel, but it's good to bias them to occur closer to the destination. Glad to hear from someone who's tried this alternative route.
Sadly, Paris/Briancon is one of the few alpine sleeper options still available.
Makes me very grateful for the extremely straightforward experience we had at GVA this morning. Bags dropped off with Easyjet in a few minutes (not sure why Edinburgh and Birmingham customers got diverted to desks with no queues but it was good for us!) and through security in a similar amount of time. Flight departed almost exactly on time. Find it so much less stressful to self propel than rely on a TO if something goes wrong.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
Sadly, Paris/Briancon is one of the few alpine sleeper options still available.
and very precarious, and subject to cancellation.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Hells Bells, better strategy, I guess, is to relocate closer to the mountains... but then you start missing the risks of long distance travel.
Camp bed in a conference centre with a big Mac? LUXURY! In my day, you were lucky to get a damp cardboard box on the side of the A40 and a cup of warm gravel.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
crosbie wrote:
Camp bed in a conference centre with a big Mac? LUXURY! In my day, you were lucky to get a damp cardboard box on the side of the A40 and a cup of warm gravel.
Exactly. Snowflakes in Alpine Meltdown Shock as the Mail so eloquently put it...
Sat on a plane for a few hours? Diddums... Worse things happened to others on airport runways this week...
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 5-01-20 21:20; edited 1 time in total
@red 27 {Sat on a plane for a few hours? Diddums...}
Read the thread. This isn't the complaint. Talk about smug irrelevance.
[the Mail so eloquently put it}
Ah yes, The Mail - I'd agree eloquent, like many other works of fiction.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
swiftoid wrote:
Makes me very grateful for the extremely straightforward experience we had at GVA this morning. Bags dropped off with Easyjet in a few minutes (not sure why Edinburgh and Birmingham customers got diverted to desks with no queues but it was good for us!) and through security in a similar amount of time. Flight departed almost exactly on time. Find it so much less stressful to self propel than rely on a TO if something goes wrong.
Maybe; some you win, some you lose. I've had two quite good TO experiences when things have gone a bit wrong. Once leaving St Anton after a week with 4 metres of snowfall where they got a coach to take us (early) to Friedrichshafen (where they'd diverted the aeroplane following the closure of Innsbruck). And another where the coach was late getting to the airport and so the flight was held. With DIY I'd have had no chance of achieving either miracle.
And then there was the DIY time where the chalet had booked us a taxi. And the road between Moûtiers and Bourg St Maurice was closed owing to a landslide. Eventually reached Moûtiers and the taxi kicked us out as he was out of hours, or - more likely - patience. Happily jumped onto the train and caught another cab at the other end. But anywhere but Moûtiers and it would have been complete disaster; stranded in the middle of nowhere. As we'd paid the chalet for the cab the chalet owner refused to cover the cost of the train and second cab...
I have had several problems with TUI (Crystal) flights out of Manchester over the years, always delayed departures. I avoid Crystal for that reason and the fact that on one trip they demanded £50 (one way fee) for my ski boot carriage, which I argued but faced with a refusal to issue me with a boarding pass I paid up. Interestingly at Innsbruck on my return there was no such demand.
I think that one of the problems is that TUI squeeze in 3 rotations a day over the winter weekend as this maximises their operational returns; unfortunately winter in the Alps is not so obliging - fog, snow, etc. This leads to delays and if the first flight of the day is affected then obviously there is a knock on effect.
I frequently use Swiss to Zurich (LX391) and that too gets delayed usually ATC at Zurich. LX391 is scheduled to depart Manchester at 0840hrs but never does, generally after 0900hrs it's apparent actual slot time, sometimes it can be as late as 1000hrs. This flight can cause issues for people connecting with trains or onward flights at Zurich.
Last March I was booked on a TUI flight, scheduled to be a Boeing 737Max8. Whilst many airlines around the world had grounded theirs, TUI chose to fly on with them despite warnings and it was only after the CAA issued a notice that TUI grounded their MAX8s. I'm now uncertain about TUI's safety responsibilties, or maybe I'm wrong and that TUI know that they have the finest pilots in the world!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
@LaForet, Correct Geneva and Lyon are operating at capacity, especially Geneva with a single runway. So if we want to fly from UK to this part of the World on a Saturday then Chambery and Grenoble it is.
Annecy would be another possibility but it can't take airbus A320s due to width, AFAIKS it can take some 737 types. It has better weather than either Chambery or Geneva. If TOs had the choice they would have everyone land at the same regional airport as close to the alps as possible as it makes shifting passengers around easier when there are problems (delays, broken down buses, missing buses etc).
As Pam and another person above said the reason Chambery is used is not flight capacity but transfer capacity. You have a limited number of buses and drivers available on a Saturday and it is not easy to increase this number (Transfer buses are school and tourist buses re-purposed to moving skiers on Saturday). Drivers are limited in the hours they can do - both in the day and week. A theoretical 90 minute transfer to Moutiers is much better than a 3 hour transfer from Geneva, Lyon or Grenoble.
Regarding Crystal. It should be remembered that a TO is a small core of permanent staff with maybe a third of reps carrying over from one season to the next. The operation is practically rebuilt each year, you have a lot of staff, especially early in the season, who are not 100% operational so are less able to cope with problems when they arise. Also what do you do with hundreds of stranded passengers? A plane load you can find hotel rooms. It is a case of Force Majeur. Small operators are often better able to cope with this kind of situation because they have people who can make quick financial decisions and they won't be looking for hundreds of hotel rooms; there will also be fewer grumpy guests on social mejah.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Chambery is a cat 3 airport which means it requires more skill then a A & B airports. Courchevel is too but the charters don't go in there. So any bad weather, high winds, low visibility and the C's shut down first... (just watched some obscure channel's program - the top 10 most dangerous airports in the world) I am a sad and nerdy ski/airport geek!
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kempski wrote:
Chambery is a cat 3 airport which means it requires more skill then a A & B airports. Courchevel is too but the charters don't go in there. So any bad weather, high winds, low visibility and the C's shut down first... (just watched some obscure channel's program - the top 10 most dangerous airports in the world) I am a sad and nerdy ski/airport geek!
There may be other reasons why the charter B737s don't set down in Courchevel...
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
That little scene was playing tricks in my mind too....
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Although I've never had a problem flying to/from there.
where they got a coach to take us (early) to Friedrichshafen (where they'd diverted the aeroplane following the closure of Innsbruck). And another where the coach was late getting to the airport and so the flight was held. With DIY I'd have had no chance of achieving either miracle.
