 Poster: A snowHead
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Well, nolo (Latin for "I do not want")was casting aspersions on our likely ability to recognise the Socratic method....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I really don't think I know what that might be.........
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The trouble with either/or concepts of this type is that they seem to assume a uniform student. I'm sure you'll testify to that fact that no such animal exists, Chris! Ask, don't tell.... Tell, don't ask... surely balance between the two is the most effective, geared towards the needs of the pupil/group in question? Gimmicky methodologies with fancy names... groan.
And yes, the reason for my slightly tetchy earlier responses was the nagging impression that the great unwashed was being patronised to an extent. Perhaps I was mistaken, if so I apologise. But I would take a sensitive, committed, enthusiastic and flexible teacher who doesn't give automatic credence to the latest flash-in-the-pan fashions in teaching method, over someone who believes themselves to be superior (and, ironically, expert) through their familiarity with same, any day. I would be far too annoyed by the latter person's alleged 'cleverness' to actually learn anything!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Actually PG, my comment above was meant to be Socratic irony. It obviously failed!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Excellent, Chris! Nothing wrong with your sense of humour!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I was merely saying that the Socratic Method was renamed Guided Discovery sometime recently, but it's the same thing. Guided Discovery has two forms, convergent discovery (one right answer) and divergent discovery (many right answers). These styles of learning prepare the way for Problem Solving.
There are people who think Guided Discovery was invented in the Sixties by Timothy Leary.
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nolo, Timothy Leary , now there's a blast from the past. For a man so influential in the 60s I find it strange no one (except you of course) seems to know about him now. I read his Politics of Ecstacy and was fascinated by his Eight Circuit Model of Consciousness.
I had never heard of Guided Discovery before, and can not find any reference to it in any of the biographies of Leary. Sounds like just the sort of thing he would have been interested in though.
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The Timothy Leary bit was humor, and to my knowledge is completely untrue.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| The Timothy Leary bit was humor |
Yes, I think we were aware of that!
Chatting to Kabou² here recently about teaching methods at the Ski Study section of the Les Arcs school, he was polite about 'new approaches', but no more. As he said, the essence of these methodologies, listening, encouragement, have been around since the year dot. Formalising them, giving them structure, can be helpful for less than effective teachers, but to most it's simply common sense. And taken to extremes, the positive side of the more traditional techniques is lost. Basic instruction, demonstration and feeding of information all have their place too.
I think you'll find that European methods are effective. We have more than our fair share of top performers on the world scene! I've watched Kabou teaching my daughter in her group at the Les Arcs club, many times this season. He uses much of the discovery technique, without all the mystique, combined with firmness and simple dispensing of information, depending on individual needs. Can't be all bad, you know. After all Kabou did manage to pick up the downhill gold in Nagano having himself been taught in the 'old-fashioned' way, and his trainees at the local clubs include top ten performers in France at the youngest ages, through to top twenty world ranked juniors and seniors, ten or so at the Les Arcs club alone.
² Top international rally driver ... and not a bad skier in his youth 
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In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is an expert? Would a blind skier feel confident about having a one-eyed skier as his guide? Probably. Would a blind skier feel confident about nipping down to Ladbrokes and sticking the life savings on a one-eyed skier winning a World Cup? Possibly, but perhaps only in the 1970s -era of the great one-eyed Fausto Radici.
My only point is that the definition of expert requires an extremely specialised definition of the task at which their expertise is to be judged. Maybe the world of ski instruction, just as ski-racing or free-skiing, has such a thing as a "specialist"?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wow! Great to have you in board Martin Bell .
| PG wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The Timothy Leary bit was humor |
Yes, I think we were aware of that! |
That "we" doesn't include me. I have zero social skills, so I thought nolo was serious (and I think nolo realised I did).
Timothy Leary funnily enough does have some relevance here. Leary was portrayed as an irresponsible dope-head who encouraged the use of hallucinogenic drugs. In fact Leary thought LSD was a powerful but useful drug. He said never use “street drugs” as you could not know what you were actually taking. He insisted LSD should only be used in the right circumstances and after training: “set and setting”. An LSD driving licence, if you like.
Previous posts (e.g. Bad Behaviour on the Piste) have hinted at possibly introducing a Skiing Licence. I am sure many will howl with horror at the thought. But:
1. Pistes are getting more crowded
2. Improved grooming (piste bashing) encourages fast skiing
3. New-style skis (“parabolics”) mean less time in ski school before you can whiz down blue slopes, and so less time to learn good piste manners
4. For many, a day skiing is rated by how many runs done, the more runs the better, so speed is paramount.
The result is pistes packed with people, many going faster than they ought to.
There are driving licences, pilot licences, sailing licences, golf handicaps (to play St Andrews maximum handicap of 24 for men and 36 for women). If accidents increase and get more serious we may eventually have to think about proper piste management.
Personally I would allow the Mogul Monsters free reign and ban flat pistes for all but beginners - speed bumps for the piste. But are we approaching the day when access to the slopes requires a Skiing Test?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I assume this testing idea was meant as a provocation, Jonpim,
Skiing isn’t like driving where you can aquire a competence which is then applicable to any road. All skiers are competent on some slopes and incompetent on others. Some people are always going to be learning to cope with any particular slope.
A driving test doesn't tell you if the person will drive too fast afterwards and nore will a ski test.
Basically the problem is too many people.
Certainly the US idea of speed limitation on certain slopes might eventually come to Europe.
A limit on the number of beds per piste mile in a resort might have to become more general (but by self-regulation, I hope). Of course many resorts do this already, to varying degrees.
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I'm surprised no-one has given this definition yet:-
Beware the Expert.... An Ex is a hasbeen and a spurt is a drip under pressure!
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You know it makes sense.
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Hey, I'm an expert!
Today, someone had a query about how to do something in Excel and asked if any of us was an "expert" in it. Everyone said "No way" but I said, "No I'm not, but I'll have a go". It was really simple problem but when I had solved it he said, "Well, you were an expert, after all!"
I'm still not an expert but it was nice to be called one! (Well, I thought so until I read Davidof's post  )
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| maggi wrote: |
| I'm still not an expert but it was nice to be called one! (Well, I thought so until I read Davidof's post ) |
Using expert in the same sentence as a microshaft product is generally something of an oxymoron.
Which reminds me of this.
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Poster: A snowHead
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ise, You are an expert, you knew where to find that list.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ise, may I add to your list of oxymorons?
How about One biscuit
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Also
Army intelligence
Algerian cuisine
Committee decision
Civil war
Foreign national
Negative growth
Fail safe
Small fortune
Nothing much
Mature student
Science fiction
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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and I discovered "problem manager" is a truism and redundant .....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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For me an expert is somone who understands their limitations and truely knows 'what it is that they do not know'. That would be the distinction between the good recreational and the expert.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| zhouchaojie wrote: |
| This stride heel bone |
Gold.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 23-04-11 11:18; edited 1 time in total
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PJSki, it helps if you don't quote the spam links we're battling to cut down 
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It seems odd that in sporting terms expert is only used for skiers. You do not hear people saying that person is a expert footballer, golfer, snooker player, tennis player , runner etc. I have no idea why this is
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I reckon it is used mainly for adventure sports. Although saying that i dont hear expert being used that often in skiing 
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riverman, In the majority of sports that you quote the word 'expert' is usually replaced by the word 'professional' (professional golfer etc.)
You get instruction/coaching in golf from a golf pro, you get instruction in skiing from a ski instructor/coach.
People normally accept that a professional sportsman is an expert. I have no idea why this is not more widely used in other sports. The term 'snowsports professional' is not as widely used as perhaps it should be when comparing snowsports with the likes of golf.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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"In the majority of sports that you quote the word 'expert' is usually replaced by the word 'professional' (professional golfer etc.). You get instruction/coaching in golf from a golf pro, you get instruction in skiing from a ski instructor/coach. People normally accept that a professional sportsman is an expert."
But those professional coaches were often at best fairly mediocre performers in their own fields and few would ever have made the grade in competition. I'll grant you that professional instructors & teachers can be and often are experts at instructing & teaching though.
I remember Neilson's end of ski trip customer feedback survey at Serre Chevalier a couple of years ago asking us all to state our ability from the categories beginner, intermediate and expert & wondering what they hoped to get out of such a trite question other than providing an opportunity for some punters to massage their egos.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It doesn't have to be very complicated does it? I don't see anything wrong with EB's simple definition of an expert:-
Expert = Superheroes, professionals, committed seasonnaires, instructors, ex-racers (not sure why it doesn't apply to current racers?)
It's just a generic term for somebody who is technically competent and experienced in their chosen field or hobby. Obviously there are different degrees of expertise, but I'd class even the lowest grade instructors as 'expert' skiers in the common sense of the term. Equally I'd consider a typical mountain local with no formal ski qualifications, but who had skied from the age of 3, also to be an expert skier.
It's probably easier to classify non-experts eg. all beginners and intermediate level skiers through to typical one/two week a year casual holiday skiers - who may well be regarded as experts by many of their non-skiing friends.
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Experts, as in the use : expert witnesses in a court of law, are not what teh average person would class as the "supreme experts"
- they are in fact pratcitioner experts. Which means that they hold specialist knowledge that the average person does not have, but they represent the typical/average practitioner in that skill - and certainly NOT the most academic or highly specialist researcher in the subject.
When i produce (engineering) expert reports, it is because i am an experienced practitioner, and can help teh court on matters that might or might not be considered facts. Typically, both sides of a case present their own "experts", (albeit both of whose duties are actually to the court, and not the paymasters) and they get together and agree on what they agree on and agree on what they diagree on !
On teh subject of "supreme" experts (cant think of a better title)
There is a lot of psychological research that shows that experts are dangerous people - they are not right as often as they ought to be, and they have a dangerous belief in their own ability/knowledge - which suggests we shouldnt rely on experts too much
And if you take that situation and compare it to the experts on here ...
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Colin B, Yep, and PJ ski is listed as well under his 'real name' or was when this thread was started SEVEN years ago!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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According to that link......
| Quote: |
| Legal references: (none at present) |
Surely that should be......
Legal references: (repeatedly about Terms & Conditions)
...... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It is also possible to be an expert in something, but be unable to pass that expertise on to anyone else or to inspire them in any way - this is where those that can teach come in. You can't define expert without specific knowledge of what you are trying to be an expert of, and the level of your audience, i.e. what they will consider an expert. The frightening thing comes when someone trusts your ability to do something when that trust might be a tad misplaced!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
I Obviously there are different degrees of expertise, but I'd class even the lowest grade instructors as 'expert' skiers in the common sense of the term. Equally I'd consider a typical mountain local with no formal ski qualifications, but who had skied from the age of 3, also to be an expert skier.
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By the lowest grade do you mean a BASI 1 ( or whatever the lowest BASI grade is) I wouldn't class that as an expert I didn't think you had to be that good to get that (from speaking to a couple of instructors and 1 non instructor who did it). I think I would pass BASI 1 and I'm not an expert.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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lynseyf, Yes I'd class the lowest grade BASI instructor as an 'expert skier' in the common sense of the word, as would probably 99.9% of the UK population. But obviously it doesn't follow that they would be considered an expert among their own peers. I think that's where the definition of expert gets confusing and if you follow that logic upward, then you end up with only 1 expert in any chosen field.
If you wanted to be pedantic, you could specify a much higher level qualification to be regarded as an "expert ski instructor".
If you actually did pass BASI 1 then you could call yourself an expert skier too 
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| Quote: |
If you actually did pass BASI 1 then you could call yourself an expert skier too
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You could, but you'd be kidding yourself. BASI 3 upwards you could justifiably be classed as an expert though.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Quote: |
If you actually did pass BASI 1 then you could call yourself an expert skier too
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You could, but you'd be kidding yourself. BASI 3 upwards you could justifiably be classed as an expert though. |
Agreed - I'd say ISIA upwards would count... otherwise you are at a level that might perhaps be compared to an apprentice plumber vs plumber or a medical student versus qualified doctor...
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FAQ
