 Poster: A snowHead
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kosciosco, during the week of group lessons how long were the skis that you used? I'm asking because when I was taking lessons, they were always giving me really short 130cm skis and I think that made it easier to learn. (I'm average height/weight - 175cm/64kg.)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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isusanin, I wish I had that BMI!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We had lessons with the local ski school in Murren last week and she "reminded" (retaught) us about the importance of snow ploughs and stem turns. Having had lessons for the last five years I thought that I was way beyond the level of needing to use snow plough turns. How wrong I was. On the third day of our visit we had done all the black runs at Murren and we couldn't have done them without using stem turns. The advantage of using these turns is that you could turn immediately, quickly and do it without generating speed. Until coming to Murren I thought I was way beyond needing to use a turn learnt on day 1 of being on a ski slope. For anything narrow and steep it is the only way for me to turn and stay in control. She was a great instructor and taught my 12 year old daughter more in these lessons than she had learnt from all her other visits to the ski slopes.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm moving this to the "Bend ze Knees" forum. U never know, it might generate some more interest 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The problem with the "hold the poles parallel across your body and keep them at right angles to the fall line at all times" method is that many people misunderstand what they're being taught. I always see people who have learned this way "practising" in the afternoon and simply cheating. As they over-rotate, they just push one hand further downhill and pull one back uphill to correct the angle of the poles. Thus with an extreme effort, they could have their shoulders facing across the fall line instead of down it and by some creative use of pushing one hand out and pulling another one in, STILL get the ski poles to face down the fall line!
The next step up from these are the advanced beginners who think they are carving turns across the slope when, in fact, all they are doing is skidding sideways pretty much straight down the fall line and simply changing the direction they are facing in between skids!
The only way I managed to progress from this level (before I saw sense and became a boarder!) was to learn angulation of the skis and this was achieved mainly by lifting up the inside/uphill ski and leaning over until the lower ski whipped around in a tight knife-edge turn. This sounds a bit like the "topple" technique mentioned earlier.
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It's almost a year since I've created this thread. I thought I would come back and report on my progress. I had loosely followed Dave Siegel's method. I did learn to hockey stop on ice skates before learning to ski and I did try to kind of skip the wedge stage in learning. It was hard to avoid the wedge because I actually took lessons the first few days on the slopes. I also did not try sidesliping on black slopes on my 1st day, but I did try to learn to hockey stop during the first couple of days on skis.
I now have 7 days of skiing under my belt (6 last year and 1 this year). I ski parallel and I can get down any blue run and nicely groomed easy black runs. I'm currently trying to learn to ski moguls because you see a lot those as you get to steeper terrain. I should also learn to use the poles properly. I am still a beginner-intermediate, but I no longer have any interest in green runs except for pointing my skis down the fall-line and seeing how fast I can go.
From my experience, I would say that the main take-away from Dave Siegel's method is that beginners must learn to hockey stop on skis very early in the process. This gives them confidence to go faster and try steeper terrain, because they know that they can stay in control by putting on the breaks at any moment. I did not find the wedge to be an effective method for controlling speed. Perhaps, because I never learned to do it properly. It looks amateurish and ugly anyway. 
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isusanin, "I did not find the wedge to be an effective method for controlling speed. Perhaps, because I never learned to do it properly. It looks amateurish and ugly anyway" Probably a very true statement, but I've seen Bode Miller doing a very nice one on more than one occasion - so amateurish? Never. Actually you gave yourself away by saying you no longer had any interest in green runs - why not? I like some green runs and not others - it depends on the run, not the colour.
at any rate you seem to be having fun, so as long as you don't put others in danger, that's fine.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, you are right that pros can make the wedge stop look elegant and effective. I've seen the high jump skiers in the Olympics use it to stop at the end of the jump, but I haven't seen anyone use it on the steeps. Anyway, I think the parallel stop is a lot more effective even for beginners and gives them a lot more confidence.
Where I ski, I haven't seen many interesting green runs. They all tend to be very short and flat. I know that some mountains have green runs going from the very top, and I would definitely check those out. You are probably thinking that I'm all out of control on the more difficult runs and putting others in danger, but I'm actually a careful skier, and tend to go very slow on the steeper terrain. When I see a crowd on the slope, I stop and wait for them to pass before I go.
I took a group lesson with two other skiers the other day. Everyone was doing parallel turns and the lesson was for level 5 - "Getting comfortable on blue terrain". The instructor went over the hockey stop and two of the students were good at it while the other one had trouble. When the instructor decided to take us to a blue run, the student that couldn't do the hockey stop refused to go. Then the instructor took us to the most difficult green run on the mountain and even there that student felt scared and literally took of his skies and decided to walk down instead. Now, here are the exact words of that student -- "This is too steep. I'm afraid of getting out of control. I think my problem is that I can't do that stop that these guys are doing." This is what actually made me realize how important being able to do the hockey stop is for beginners. All of you ski instructors out there, teach the hockey stop as early as possible to your students, and they will thank you later.
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isusanin, I teach my beginners swing to the hill and using the terrain to control their speed. Doing hockey stops (IMO) tends to encourage beginners to sling their hips out which is a major rotation and leads to later problems. When they can keep their hips/upper bodies quiet and use their feet independently, then a hockey stop is fine. However I apologise if I implied that you would be a danger - I really meant that IF YOU ARE NOT then fine. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, keeping the upper body body and hips straight is actually something I need to work on to become more fluid. Hockey stops will not help with that, but they definitely have their place in controlling speed.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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