@rob@rar, Ok so on the easy terrain, this long leg/short leg routine is very subtle (for obvious reasons) and as speed and steepness of terrain increase the difference will become far more visible.
Are you an advocate of slightly lifting the inside ski to promote the weight transfer to the outside ski?
I guess will all have slightly different triggers to achieve the same result. i'm just looking for the one that works for me!
In my mind (a scary place I know) I can see, more flexing at the knees, early weight on the new downhill ski and sliding my hips across the skis down the hill, thus rolling onto the edges and carving the turn. Another big problem is being patient enough to allow the skis to turn before I force the issue by tail swishing.
have I got my head around this?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thornyhill wrote:
I used to play off 4. Golf is just a mindf**k of a game. Skiing is far far easier on the grey matter.
I couldn't agree more....and I never got better than 12.
Back in 2011, on a HiFi forum, I wrote the following.....but it applies with almost any activity. (Apologies in advance to OP for the diversion...but it is sort of relevant to skiing).
"As I sit here confined to barracks (due to a back op), unable to attend my usual Sunday four ball, it got me thinking (dangerous at the best of times).
When you start out playing golf, it's occasional, fun and never serious.
Then one of your keen friends says, "You can't play golf properly with those old things."
The Argos Specials don't cut it anymore
So off you go to the nearest golf discount warehouse, and get kitted out in style. The salesman is convincing, so out you come with clubs, bag, electric trolley (on offer if you buy everything else), shoes, gloves (for wet and dry weather), balls and teas and a ball retriever (little do you know how useful this will be).
Is there a difference?........you bet there is.......the ball goes for miles......in the wrong direction. At least before, you never hit it far enough to lose it!
Now, another of those mates says, "What ya buy those for, they're all wrong for you. Go and get fitted." There is talk of swing speeds, lie angles and the like.....all very confusing.
Now, armed with all this advice, you get measured up, and trade in your nearly new clubs for those bespoke, game enhancing ones.
Things go well for a while, handicap drops, happiness breaks out. Then for no obvious reason, the wheels come off your game, and as usual, there is plenty of advice on hand:
You're swinging too fast; your grip's too strong; you need an Oddessy two ball putter and replace that Aldila graphite shaft with Fujikura one.........aahhhh. Dissolution and frustration set in.
The other unforeseen consequence of this new hobby, is that it has now got the wife off-side.
"You're not spending any more money on another driver you don't need," or "that monstrosity of a golf bag ruins the look of the hall".
You now take matters into your own hands, and do what what you should've done in the first place - see a Golf Pro - who gets your game back on track.
After twenty years or so of experiment and equipment changes, you finally arrive at Nirvana, which is a low single figure handy-cap. This now qualifies you to pass on your "pearls of wisdom" to your friends.... and mess up their games!"
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 28-02-17 12:47; edited 2 times in total
Are you an advocate of slightly lifting the inside ski to promote the weight transfer to the outside ski?
No. I really don't like the Harb phantom move because I think it's a one-trick pony. Works fine for a particular type of turn on relatively moderate pistes, but take that movement pattern off-piste, on to steep terrain, bumps, etc and it son stops working.
gazzaredcruiser wrote:
I guess will all have slightly different triggers to achieve the same result. i'm just looking for the one that works for me!
In my mind (a scary place I know) I can see, more flexing at the knees, early weight on the new downhill ski and sliding my hips across the skis down the hill, thus rolling onto the edges and carving the turn. Another big problem is being patient enough to allow the skis to turn before I force the issue by tail swishing.
have I got my head around this?
That's a lot to think about at the same time. My head would explode if I tried to do all that. Maybe just have one focus: stand on the outside ski at the start of the turn. When that is happening consistently well you can use it as a foundation for everything else.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@rob@rar, Ok thanks, little steps, i get it.....er but not with the inside ski
@Old Fartbag, hahahaha that's brilliant and totally sums up my approach to golf 10 years ago, archery 3 years and now skiing. Hopefully I've learnt (ok ok maybe still learning as I've got new skis and boots ) from those mistakes now and I'm having lessons with IOS where possible. But I love that last line, so true.
Having said that this is a great thread and some very useful information in here and exactly what Scott was working on last week.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@gazzaredcruiser,
After all it is free
After all it is free
@rob@rar, Someone teaching at MK. I stopped going as the person seemed very dogmatic about it without allowing discussion in the group OR even in expanding the explanation in private afterwards... trying to think about consciously moving my hips across my skis AND keeping equal pressure on my skis i just literally froze solid - there wasn't any talk about 'long leg/short leg' either. Nobody was doing particularly well, and the 'coach' didn't demo it well either.
All things considered, it was time to leave and not come back. You and Scott probably know the 'Coach' in question but no names on a public forum.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Tim Heeney, thanks. Being a bit more two-footed obviously has its uses, off-piste being one as kitenski suggested, but for performance skiing on firm snow you are going to be much more outside-foot dominant.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
For me I don't think (at least I think I don't think ) about moving hips down the hill (I struggle with the hips terminology sometimes too but thought I'd better use it as that's what Deirdre said she was doing) - if I stand on the uphill ski I have to make a conscious effort to keep it on its uphill edge, if I don't make that effort it just rolls over and starts to turn downhill.
The dreaded snowblades were good for discovering what the edge is designed to do. Being so short they were not so forgiving as skis in terms of where you could stand without them flapping all over the place, but once you found the "sweet spot" they would carve beautifully.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Yoda wrote:
For me I don't think (at least I think I don't think ) about moving hips down the hill (I struggle with the hips terminology sometimes too but thought I'd better use it as that's what Deirdre said she was doing) - if I stand on the uphill ski I have to make a conscious effort to keep it on its uphill edge, if I don't make that effort it just rolls over and starts to turn downhill.
You're right, I think instinctively we change edges when we want to change direction (although frozen with fear, won't let go of the old edges does happen if people get well outside their comfort zone). I find that playing around with hip movements is a good way to experiment with different types of transition (cross-over, x-through, x-under), as well as being generally useful for developing an awareness of what and how we are moving. But there is a danger of making it all too complicated, so sometimes you just need to say to your self "standing on the fecking ski and get on with it".
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
gazzaredcruiser wrote:
@rob@rar, Ok thanks, little steps, i get it.....er but not with the inside ski
Rob is loads more qualified and experienced than me, but if you want an "exercise" that you could do on snow for your next holiday, then try this on a gentle (think green steepness) slope.
Step 1: immediately after the turn see if you can lift the TAIL of your inside ski but keep the tip on the ground.
Step 2: If you can do this, try doing the same during the later part of the turn.
Step 3: If you can do this try lifting it earlier and earlier in the turn, eventually you can do the whole turn with the "new" inside ski lifted.
Keeping the tip on the ground is key as it prevents you leaning back. If the tip lifts you could well be leaning back.
So 2 things (only) to concentrate on, lifting the tail and standing on the new outside ski.
Look about a minute onwards from this video for the concept, but DON'T try doing it as fast as he is, and don't worry about getting the ski on edge like he does in the video.
NOTE: THIS IS A DRILL, don't go lifting the inside ski as its a bad habit to develop (I know I had it)!!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I'm somebody that's inclined to over-complicate and over-think things (no $h1t Sherlock!), which can lead to my Head Exploding, as Rob puts it. I now put my thoughts on paper and then try and bring one thought at a time to the mountain. I also find visualization a useful tool.
It is very hard to describe a movement(s) simply and accurately...."a picture is worth a thousand words", comes to mind. As skiing is not a series of static movements (but involves remaining in balance, while Gravity does its best to throw you on your head) , it is only through the feedback from expert guidance that success is usually achieved.
I try to ski from the feet up, though not always successfully. IMO. Things should be kept relatively simple to start with, but to become more expert, it is necessary to get into the subtleties of the sport, which can get very technical....but this should not happen too soon or too fast. The more I learn, the more I realize I'm only scratching the surface.....and that's how it is likely to stay unless I ski more than 1 week per year.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Tue 28-02-17 16:09; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Old Fartbag wrote:
It is very hard to describe a movement (s) simply and accurately...."a picture is worth a thousand words", comes to mind.
And moving pictures are simply priceless. I hate teaching without doing video analysis as everyone's experience is compromised.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
The first time my mate John and I went skiing with Ali Ross Moira did the videoing whilst we skied on the first day. Come the evening "analysis" session and John's jaw dropped - oh gawd, is that ME?!
This past year John has been skiing in Svalbard, the Antarctic and Uzbekistan. He's still crap mind (as indeed am I)
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 1-03-17 15:07; edited 1 time in total
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Yoda, HaHa. Yep, it didn't feel that good but I had no idea it looked that bad! Been there many times. Video benefits, umm, must try harder! 😂
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Disregard all these other videos and tips, what you really want to be doing is this
Thanks guys, some great points here to work on, and at least i've been called an intermediate!! my hand position is a new thing for me, i'm trying to keep both hands in view to prevent leaving the pole plant behind and thereby rotate the upper body the wrong way....if that makes sense. So it sounds like i need to push the hands forward a bit more and not so wide, tuck my back bottom in, i assume that's what @rob@rar, means by fornicating! In the words for Harold Harb, i'm gonna try more flexing and tipping. i'll try to post my next vid in four weeks after the trip to Seefeld, which will hopefully see some improvement.
Hi Gazza,
the first thing you need to do is decrease your stance width. You have your leg too Wide Appart!! You are a beginner, not a SuperG athlete.
In this way you can not carry your weight and balance on the stance ski.
Right now you don't need to think about flexing and tipping. If Harald Harb sees you he lovingly slap your butt.
You have to do some traverse. First on the inside edge of your right and left ski with the other ski raised. Then on the outside edge. You have to stay well in balance. (So you con see if you have some stance problem with your ski boots)
You need to stay in balance on one ski.
The best exercise is the javelin turn:
In your video we can see than when you shift your weight from one leg to the other you are always on the inside ski.
And so your downhill ski is slippery.
Because when you want to turn, you push yourself from the upper (now the inside) to the lower ski and than you rotate your leg. So you load what becomes the new inside ski. And so on.
That's very bad.
You have not to think about Turning! You must think about Releasing the downill ski whit the weight on it.
The two footed release is a good way (From minute 2:13). First your ankle and knee, then your thigth and then your torso.....
Your body cross over the ski! But with the release from standstill your wheight is first on your downhill ski, then in the transition on the two ski and then on the new stance ski and you have to be on it or you follow down.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Look up harald harb and PMTS on YouTube, you'll find everything you need as in explanation with video
I used to play off 4. Golf is just a mindf**k of a game. Skiing is far far easier on the grey matter.
I couldn't agree more....and I never got better than 12.
....
at the rest of it. I never got sucked into the new clubs thing, but slightly relevant to the thread and advice above....you start thinking about everything. Where is my left knee, did I breathe, should I breathe now, is my swing too fast, is my swing too slow, should I breathe yet, is that spike mark on the green going to divert this 18 inch putt, is the wind above the trees blowing harder, did I breathe yet.....ad infinitum.
When you think about it too much the game is lost. Find one or two things to focus on and improve them until they become as natural as...erm....breathing.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Blimey. this thread has suddenly made my brain hurt.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Thornyhill,
A good mate of mine has the ultimate method of destroying golfers who think too much about their game.
Quote:
Do you want to put a fiver on each hole?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@musher, cheaper to ask them if they breathe in or out on the back swing.....once you think about it you can't un-think about it
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Thornyhill,
I don't think he ever lost money doing it
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
He never played me.....Amazing how a fiver a hole can focus the mind if you are a tightwad.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Thornyhill,
Or make you fall apart ... now breath
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@gazzaredcruiser, It's like looking at myself.
You're frightened of the speed, so leaning back ('cause leaning forward is an unnatural position to take when falling) and you keep flaring your heels because you know that hockey stops slow you down. Basically your subconscious is trying to save your life.
When I go away in a week or so I'm going to try to shut my subconscious up by choosing a point in the distance and try to use the correct technique to get to it, then choose another point (without stopping) and do the same, this way my subconscious will be fed the slope in chunks rather than panic when faced with the prospect of skiing the whole hill in one.
I'm a learner, but I hope that makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@sgarrozzo, Interested in what you say about stance, and I'd like to know what others think. It looks to me as if Harb's feet are actually closer together than ideal. His skiing looks almost retro in style. Harb is obviously an infinitely better skier than I will ever be in a thousand lifetimes, but I'm still dubious whether the OP's feet are really too far apart. Perhaps a tad, but closer to hip-width than HH. Thoughts?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@foxtrotzulu, compare his stance width at the start of the video when he was free skiing some choppy snow with the next video clip of him demoing on an easy peasy piste. I think his demo was unnecessarily narrow. I've seen him free ski a couple of times, great skier but I didn't think he skied with a narrow stance then, so maybe it's just a demo thing?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@foxtrotzulu, personally I'd be agreeing with Rob here, the OP should concentrate on getting the weight onto his new outside ski. Other things like stance width etc aren't the most important thing to worry about and will over complicate.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
kitenski wrote:
@foxtrotzulu, personally I'd be agreeing with Rob here, the OP should concentrate on getting the weight onto his new outside ski. Other things like stance width etc aren't the most important thing to worry about and will over complicate.
I think that's right. Once people start skiing with good lateral balance, moving on to their outside ski early in the turn and getting the ski to grip, lots of other issues will often sort themselves out. Stance width, for example. We are programmed by evolution to walk and run with our feet about hip width apart. To run either wider or narrower than that takes additional effort, for example a baby learning to walk will typically use a wide stance as they don't yet have good balance skills. When we develop those balance skills and the movement patterns that go with them I'd say more often than not stance trends towards hip width without much conscious thought or intervention.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@rob@rar, @kitenski, Good to hear I was thinking along the right lines.
Just to follow up on one comment:
Quote:
moving on to their outside ski early in the turn
Surely if the turn has started then, by definition you have moved your weight onto the outside ski - or the turn wouldn't have started at all. Can you explain a little more what you mean? [Not disagreeing, just struggling to get my tiuny brain around the issue]
My simple understanding is that you flatten the skis to start the turn. As you flatten your skis then you will start to turn down hill towards the fall line. You don't have to put the weight onto the outside ski as soon as you have flattened the ski you can wait to move your weight over and start to edge. Of course you can go straight from one edge to the other passing through the flat stage quickly however you may run into problems getting your weight to the outside.
So for me if I move too quickly onto my edges I tend to fall inside getting too much weight on the inside ski which means my outside ski isn't doing anything useful, as I haven't properly allowed my weight to go to the outside ski. So I have to wait to weight (instructors have suggested I count to 10! as 6 only got me part way there, but that's because I may rush things a little ) If I'm doing short turns I can get away with it as my weight hasn't time to fall inside before I turn the other way but for longer turns I need to be patient.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
foxtrotzulu wrote:
Just to follow up on one comment:
Quote:
moving on to their outside ski early in the turn
Surely if the turn has started then, by definition you have moved your weight onto the outside ski - or the turn wouldn't have started at all. Can you explain a little more what you mean? [Not disagreeing, just struggling to get my tiuny brain around the issue]
If you look at most recreational skiers they don't balance well/fully on the outside ski until pretty late in the turn (sometimes as late as the fall line, or even later). It's the key weakness that I see. So taking the video in the OP as an example (apologies to the OP for using him as an example), any time he is pushing his skis sideways or quickly pivoted at the start of the turn (which sometimes creates a wedge or plough if the pushing is done more with the outside ski) he is not standing in balance on the outside ski. A ski can be edged without standing on it if you still have more of your weight on what was the old outside ski from the previous turn (which has now become the new inside ski when you change edges). Hope this makes sense.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 2-03-17 12:11; edited 1 time in total
Is often key to making a step change, although rather than "patient" I think a better word is "smooth" and a better phrase is "smooth, and in balance with the forces you are generating". If you move inside the turn before the g-forces* start to build up you have nothing to balance against, and in extreme can drop on to your inside hip as you are so unbalanced. If you don't move inside the turn quickly enough you are not going to generate the early edge angles that you might be looking for, so your turn size is going to be to large, and maybe you'll be skiing too fast. So you need to create your edge angles in proportion to the forces you are developing (and want to develop for the turn size you want). Great skiers can make those lateral movements quickly because they are very good at balancing the rate and range of their movements with the forces they are developing. If you don't have those great skills it is better to make the movements more slowly and get it right, rather than snap it it and get it wrong.
*C-Forces for pedantic physicists.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Smooth and in balance with the forces you are generating is certainly a phrase that has been mentioned to me several times rather that slamming my edges on....
Oh to have had lessons earlier in my skiing rather than 30 odd years in
There again when it does occasionally work it is a thing of great pleasure
After all it is free
After all it is free
To back up what Rob said, if I had to list the one thing that made the biggest single difference to my (Piste) skiing, it would be the early transfer of weight.
Other important milestones for me were:
- Improving fore/aft balance by pulling feet back (or pushing them forwards), to remain in balance.
- Engaging the tip of the ski at the top of the turn
- Working the uphill ski and avoiding the A-Frame (or trying to).
- Remaining stacked in longer turns (involves pulling back uphill ski to keep it in line with d/hill one & letting u/hill arm track round the turn with the skis).
- Taping into the design of the ski to add power to the turns.
I also found it helpful to realize (as Rob said above), that the edge angle and body shape to achieve them, are simply a reaction to (and proportionate to) the forces being generated during the turn....and as those forces build when you pass the fall-line (through to the end of the turn), you have to angulate progressively/proportionately to offset them.
As speeds increase in GS type turns, your hips, which are your centre of mass, need to drop into the center of the turn...as you are, in effect, having a tug-of-war with gravity.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
kitenski wrote:
@foxtrotzulu, personally I'd be agreeing with Rob here, the OP should concentrate on getting the weight onto his new outside ski. Other things like stance width etc aren't the most important thing to worry about and will over complicate.
He cannot getting the weight onto his new outside ski with this stance. Looks at stance of the slalom skiers in the World Cup where balancing is essential. And he cannot if he don't release with the weight on the ski. You can't skiing balancing from inside to inside like he is doing.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar wrote:
...Stance width, for example. We are programmed by evolution to walk and run with our feet about hip width apart. To run either wider or narrower than that takes additional effort
Not sure thats true. When walking don't foot prints form a lot narrower track than hip width and narrower still (almost in line) when running. We tend to stand hip width appart but only walk like that in circumstances where balance is an issue (like on ice or the deck of a rolling boat). Walk with feet hip width appart and you'd look like you'd sh4t yourself. I'm not sure how that translates into skiing but it seems a flawed premise to explain skiing with feet hip width apart.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) from those mistakes now and I'm having lessons with IOS where possible. But I love that last line, so true.
) about moving hips down the hill (I struggle with the hips terminology sometimes too but thought I'd better use it as that's what Deirdre said she was doing) - if I stand on the uphill ski I have to make a conscious effort to keep it on its uphill edge, if I don't make that effort it just rolls over and starts to turn downhill.
