 Poster: A snowHead
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| abc wrote: |
"females attempt suicide 3 times as often as males" reads to me as for every woman who died of suicide, 3 had attempted.
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Isn't that "for every man who attempts suicide, 3 women have attempted"?
Genuinely have to dash now (important to keep social connections what with living in a ski resort!!) but will look back later - totally agree it's important to get numbers right.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@abc, for every woman who dies by suicide, four men die; however, for every man who tries to commit suicide, 3 women try.
So for every 4 men who die by suicide, at least 12 women attempt suicide (would be more depending on the male failure rate I guess).
Or at least that's how I understood it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@abc, I think your interpretation of the second statement is incorrect.
I think the following data (amongst many solutions) would be consistent with the two statements:
24 women attempt suicide
8 males attempt suicide
4 of the 8 males succeed
1 of the 24 females succeed.
What the figures quoted imply is that men are 12 times as successful as women at killing themselves (assuming all attempts are genuine).
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Oos, my mistake in not reading correctly. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| miranda wrote: |
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| I think 'attempted' suicide and suicide are two different things. |
Well that's obvious. "Attempted Suicide" is used when someone survives. "Suicide" is used when someone does not.
What's your point, though? That someone who tries to take their own life but doesn't succeed doesn't need help?! |
Often attempted suicide is simply attention seeking behaviour. I'm not saying these people don't need help.
My point is that male suicide is a huge problem and men's well-being is very low on people's priorities compared to children's and women's. As a father of a son and daughter I find it very sad.
As things stand there are far more support mechanisms to support my daughter through life than my son.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Often attempted suicide is simply attention seeking behaviour. |
I'll confess to being wary about this interpretation from a purely biased point of view. My aunt and neighbour tried to take their lives by overdose and survived (entering into the statistics of "attempted suicide"). They subsequently succeeded in taking their own lives (again, overdose). They weren't "simply attention seeking". They wanted to die. I know my personal experience is beyond tiny and means nothing other than to me so am really actively open to reading any current research you can provide.
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
My point is that male suicide is a huge problem and men's well-being is very low on people's priorities compared to children's and women's. As a father of a son and daughter I find it very sad. As things stand there are far more support mechanisms to support my daughter through life than my son. |
Well that is without doubt very sad. I imagine that everyone reading this thread believes mental health services should be there for males and females - who wouldn't believe that?
I did note that in a couple of completely gender-neutral topics over the last day or so this seems to have been playing on your mind (i.e. your response to the "I don't like fresh snow" thread made comments about male pressure and a thread about the decline in wintersports participation saw you say something along the lines of "skiing isn't cool anymore, £3k bikes are how they express their masculinity these days").
Men dominate politics and business in our society; now really is the time to act, when you have such a powerful ear.
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| Quote: |
You are a mathematician reading words, rather than numbers,
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Unfortunately, that's been one of my nemeses. The only few times I ever not get full mark in any math exam was always due to my reading the 'words' wrong.
The "non-native language" part was a cheap shot.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@abc, it wasn't intended to be "a shot" of any kind but I apologise if it was offensive to you.
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| Quote: |
My aunt and neighbour tried to take their lives by overdose and survived (entering into the statistics of "attempted suicide"). They subsequently succeeded in taking their own lives (again, overdose). They weren't "simply attention seeking". They wanted to die
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The only suicide close to me - my mother's - was the same. She succeeded the second time. She was perfectly lucid and rational and knew what she was about.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
My aunt and neighbour tried to take their lives by overdose and survived (entering into the statistics of "attempted suicide"). They subsequently succeeded in taking their own lives (again, overdose). They weren't "simply attention seeking". They wanted to die
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The only suicide close to me - my mother's - was the same. She succeeded the second time. She was perfectly lucid and rational and knew what she was about. |
Sorry to hear about that. My own experience is the same though. Suicidal tendency is something that runs in my mother's family, so I have lost an aunt and several cousins to it, all of whom succeeded after multiple attempts. They were not cries for help, they simply wanted out.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| miranda wrote: |
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Often attempted suicide is simply attention seeking behaviour. |
I'll confess to being wary about this interpretation from a purely biased point of view. My aunt and neighbour tried to take their lives by overdose and survived (entering into the statistics of "attempted suicide"). They subsequently succeeded in taking their own lives (again, overdose). They weren't "simply attention seeking". They wanted to die. I know my personal experience is beyond tiny and means nothing other than to me so am really actively open to reading any current research you can provide.
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
My point is that male suicide is a huge problem and men's well-being is very low on people's priorities compared to children's and women's. As a father of a son and daughter I find it very sad. As things stand there are far more support mechanisms to support my daughter through life than my son. |
Well that is without doubt very sad. I imagine that everyone reading this thread believes mental health services should be there for males and females - who wouldn't believe that?
I did note that in a couple of completely gender-neutral topics over the last day or so this seems to have been playing on your mind (i.e. your response to the "I don't like fresh snow" thread made comments about male pressure and a thread about the decline in wintersports participation saw you say something along the lines of "skiing isn't cool anymore, £3k bikes are how they express their masculinity these days").
Men dominate politics and business in our society; now really is the time to act, when you have such a powerful ear. |
I think you may be right. Men do dominate politics and business but I often feel that's because of male weakness of feeling the need to 'succeed' and not having enough intelligence to suppress the testosterone. I think it was Robin Williams who said the world would be a far better and peaceful place if ran by women.
I think comments about not liking powder actually is, I would argue, a gender issue. Many men and women do like powder but there is far more social pressure on a male not to admit liking powder.
Men do dominate business but only because they're too dumb to realise there are far more worthwhile things to do with your life.
I got quite into the gender thing and brain sex when supporting youngsters in education for many years and I do drop comments in here to provoke thought and responses - hence the comments in 'I don't really like powder' Nowhere is the male ego so dominant than in the world of ski instructing. But that's a different topic.
The 'Every Child Matters' agenda was born out of concerns of a postcode lottery. Much of the support given to children depended on charities - I think 3.2 million were working with children in some capacity, of which 700 000 were working for charities. Obviously, the support than children got depended on where they lived and which charity was working there at the time. The idea was to change that and ensure every child got the support they needed. Perhaps the next step is 'Every adult matters'
Suicide is a dreadful thing. It has touched my family and friends though I really started thinking deeply about the subject when I learned of two suicides of two young men in a town where I taught for a while. I knew both, one of them very well and played quite a big part in his life for a few years. It made me think about his whole life leading up to his tragic death how all of those around him could have seen or not seen it coming over many years. It became very clear to me that as soon as young male reaches 18 they effectively go from loved and protected child to stand alone adult in terms of institutional support. Furthermore, there is an expectation to be successful and provide without showing weakness.
Mental health services have been woeful in the UK for many years. I spent years trying to get support for children at it was like pulling teeth. Things did start to change under the coalition and Norman Lamb was the first politician with gravitas to really push things forwards. There's still a long way to go.
On the subject of ski resorts I once spent the afternoon drinking with some long term ex pats at a very well known resort. At first glance, their life looked idyllic but it soon became apparent that quite a few of the group were living quite a sad existence.
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I don't think my mother's family had "suicidal tendencies". In fact one of my mother's favourite stories was about her grandmother, who was the village midwife and "layer out" in Llangyfelach and tended to be called in for all kinds of neighbourhood crises. One neighbour was forever threatening suicide, lots of drama. The nth time she was called he had locked himself in the (outside, inevitably) privy and had asked his wife to bring his (cut-throat, inevitably) razor. She was standing outside, sobbing. "Should I give it to him, nurse?" she asked. "Not like that," answered my grandmother. She gave it a good stropping then handed it in saying "There, you can make a much cleaner job of it now".
He came out a wee while later and never pulled the same trick again.
A risk taker, my great grandmother? Possibly, but she'd had enough of his histrionics.
In my mother's case suicide was a rational answer to the problem of a degenerative condition of the brain which would ultimately lead to her being unable to breathe independently, and made her a high risk for a stroke. She dreaded being entirely disabled and helpless and in view of our inhumane laws on assisted suicide she decided to sort it out herself, whilst she still had the physical means to do so. She might have had a couple of years before her condition degenerated markedly but was not prepared to take that risk.
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You know it makes sense.
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Those who take their lives are the ones who've reached the end of long scale of depression. It begs the question about all the others in mountain resorts who are somewhere on the scale and suffering. People are very sympathetic towards people suffering from depression in towns with collapsed industries or farmers or those recently bereaved but it's probably more difficult to get sympathy for depressed ski bums. Local councils probably have greater priorities than the well being of immigrant 'lifestyle skiers; and it is difficult to see where support networks will come from.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Those who take their lives are the ones who've reached the end of long scale of depression
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Not necessarily. There are fates worse than death.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| Those who take their lives are the ones who've reached the end of long scale of depression. It begs the question about all the others in mountain resorts who are somewhere on the scale and suffering. People are very sympathetic towards people suffering from depression in towns with collapsed industries or farmers or those recently bereaved but it's probably more difficult to get sympathy for depressed ski bums. Local councils probably have greater priorities than the well being of immigrant 'lifestyle skiers; and it is difficult to see where support networks will come from. |
I can only talk of my experience of being an immigrant living in a mountain resort in France but there no doubt is more national concern about the rural farming areas of the northwest - it seems that the rate of suicide in France is by far the highest in Bretagne, whilst Auvergne-Rhones-Alpes has the lowest rate in the country with the exception of Ile-de-France (Paris) which has the lowest rate by some distance. I really don't think 'the local council' would wash their hands of an immigrant 'lifestyle skier' any more than anyone else. It would be very easy to remain isolated and off the radar here, but also very easy to build networks and get support if that's what you wanted, even with poor French language skills (though it's clearly easier to build social networks if you make an effort in the local language, the doctors and mental health services speak English).
I think the comments by the brother of the man featured in the article are interesting - he said that what was missing from the article was:
"The affect on those who have come there young and lived their dreams happily as a “ski bum”, then reached middle age and are not able to do all the same things, THEN face all the isolation, lack of community, all your friends married with kids, altitude, substance abuse, no career or retirement plan…."
He said his brother had lived in Telluride for 35 years (since his early 20s) and had loved it there. I guess if your raison d’être is physical activity in the mountains and you are no longer able to do it in the way you want and "need" to, and the future looks to be one of relative struggle but now without your primary source of joy and vitality, the question of why you would want to put yourself through that is a valid one.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| miranda wrote: |
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| Those who take their lives are the ones who've reached the end of long scale of depression. It begs the question about all the others in mountain resorts who are somewhere on the scale and suffering. People are very sympathetic towards people suffering from depression in towns with collapsed industries or farmers or those recently bereaved but it's probably more difficult to get sympathy for depressed ski bums. Local councils probably have greater priorities than the well being of immigrant 'lifestyle skiers; and it is difficult to see where support networks will come from. |
I can only talk of my experience of being an immigrant living in a mountain resort in France but there no doubt is more national concern about the rural farming areas of the northwest - it seems that the rate of suicide in France is by far the highest in Bretagne, whilst Auvergne-Rhones-Alpes has the lowest rate in the country with the exception of Ile-de-France (Paris) which has the lowest rate by some distance. I really don't think 'the local council' would wash their hands of an immigrant 'lifestyle skier' any more than anyone else. It would be very easy to remain isolated and off the radar here, but also very easy to build networks and get support if that's what you wanted, even with poor French language skills (though it's clearly easier to build social networks if you make an effort in the local language, the doctors and mental health services speak English).
I think the comments by the brother of the man featured in the article are interesting - he said that what was missing from the article was:
"The affect on those who have come there young and lived their dreams happily as a “ski bum”, then reached middle age and are not able to do all the same things, THEN face all the isolation, lack of community, all your friends married with kids, altitude, substance abuse, no career or retirement plan…."
Maybe I'm being rather cynical but I think most people see the ski bum deal as a dream lifestyle (without realising it's not) and therefore they are unlikely to get a huge amount of sympathy and therefore funding for support structures.
He said his brother had lived in Telluride for 35 years (since his early 20s) and had loved it there. I guess if your raison d’être is physical activity in the mountains and you are no longer able to do it in the way you want and "need" to, and the future looks to be one of relative struggle but now without your primary source of joy and vitality, the question of why you would want to put yourself through that is a valid one. |
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Maybe I'm being rather cynical but I think most people see the ski bum deal as a dream lifestyle (without realising it's not) and therefore they are unlikely to get a huge amount of sympathy and therefore funding for support structures.
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What do you mean?
If someone went to the local doctor and said they were having mental health problems/experiencing suicidal thoughts, the local doctor would dismiss them because they were a 'ski bum'?
Do you mean in the US? Or mountain resorts in general?
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I'm glad you found it interesting. I found it very thought provoking and powerful.
I guess ski resorts are more polarised than most places in terms of distribution of wealth.
I'd imagine it must be quite hard for a 40 something college drop out, still collecting glasses in a bar to see people their own age arriving with families, children and successful careers behind them. These guest may be as depressed as the next man, stuck in an office somewhere most of the year but, as with all these things, it's perception that matters.
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| miranda wrote: |
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Maybe I'm being rather cynical but I think most people see the ski bum deal as a dream lifestyle (without realising it's not) and therefore they are unlikely to get a huge amount of sympathy and therefore funding for support structures.
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What do you mean?
If someone went to the local doctor and said they were having mental health problems/experiencing suicidal thoughts, the local doctor would dismiss them because they were a 'ski bum'?
Do you mean in the US? Or mountain resorts in general? |
Doctors just touch the edge of mental health problems. Much of the good work done in the UK is done by charities, Mind is the obvious one. Mental health support groups and like are often funded by short term grants which are the first things to go I recessions. when I was an Academy Vice Principal, the counsellors who worked for me were funded by the YMCA who got their funding from grants from various councils. the demand for such pots of money always exceeds supply, more so since 2008. My point is that a group of people with strategic decision making powers may have to decide on a 'pretty down recently ski bum support group' or the 'new skills for ski instructors facing redundancy due to dropping numbers' course.
I use the term ski bum as it's all about perception. Most see it as an idyllic lifestyle so they're unlikely to get sympathy. We used to stand on street corners collectin money for Rag when I was a student. We tried various phrases. 'Help brain injured children' was deemed the most successful when rattling the tin. 'Donate to Rag' got nothing as people thought we drank it. I fear a charity to help lifestyle skiers may get a similar reception.
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Why would you have a charity to help 'lifestyle skiers' rather than simply people in the area suffering? It doesn't make sense.
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
I'd imagine it must be quite hard for a 40 something college drop out, still collecting glasses in a bar to see people their own age arriving with families, children and successful careers behind them. |
You're projecting quite a lot there. There are plenty of 40 something people who couldn't care less about "successful careers" and who've never wanted children.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@miranda, thanks i had a quick look at The Spirit Level and the counter-arguments. My former stats lecturer would have had some fun with how some of the data is being presented and interpreted, he was a stickler for not skewing things. But then, as pointed out, the politics comes into play ... 
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| miranda wrote: |
Why would you have a charity to help 'lifestyle skiers' rather than simply people in the area suffering? It doesn't make sense.
| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
I'd imagine it must be quite hard for a 40 something college drop out, still collecting glasses in a bar to see people their own age arriving with families, children and successful careers behind them. |
You're projecting quite a lot there. There are plenty of 40 something people who couldn't care less about "successful careers" and who've never wanted children. |
But are they the ones taking their lives?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I guess ski resorts are more polarised than most places in terms of distribution of wealth.
I'd imagine it must be quite hard for a 40 something college drop out, still collecting glasses in a bar to see people their own age arriving with families, children and successful careers behind them.
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You can find examples of that sort of lifestyle everywhere in the world. It's not ski resort or holiday resort specific.
I'm not at all sure it's typical of the current 40yr old generation in many European ski stations. My wife's generation in the village her family came from go ski instructing because they don't need to work (having swapped goat herding land for the enormously lucrative piles of cash that the lift company gave them). The next generation however are finding thing significantly harder (and are complaining that their parents spend all the money).
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ski instructors facing redundancy due to dropping numbers
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Really? Not at all convinced this is a real problem - unless it's redundancy brought on by the hordes of just-finished-gap-yay brits with their BASI 1s.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Middle age is highest risk group across the US, France and the UK - people with "careers" and kids as well as those without.
The article about ski towns mentions a 46 year old, a 57 year old and links to a report about 3 suicides in the space of a couple of weeks by people who were all over the age of 55.
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I usually find tuning in to the BBC Traffic & Weather relieves any brief malaise 
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You know it makes sense.
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Females tend to use methods of suicide which can be reversed and are not dramatic and final. (for example overdose, or cut wrists) Males on the other hand tend to shoot themselves, hang themselves, or jump off a cliff.
I have heard this before somewhere. I cannot remember where.
Men also tend to have higher accident rates when young. The most striking example I can think of is the mortality peak at age 20-25 for males in Taiwan, which does not occur to the same extent in female mortality. It could be related to the heavy use of mopeds. However, accidental death, and suicide statistics are often blurred in males. This is due to the method of suicide chosen by males compared to females.
Often males will not write suicide notes, or call helplines. They just do it, and are successful.
Females might talk about it, write notes, and leave hints.
Statistics are often blurred, particularly when it comes to cause of death. Sometimes there are multiple causes in death, and sometimes there is an underlying cause, but the actual death could be caused by something like inhalation of vomit. Having inhalation of vomit on the death certificate is different from suicide by drinking too much alcohol and inhaling vomit in your sleep. (which is the cause, and is it suicide?)
Gory topic, and interesting article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Getting back to th eorigional topic- small numbers = not meaningful.
You will always get clusters- and in small populations just a few incidents of problem x (which could be a rare cancer or suicide or infection) will give a news worthy result and it is almost impossible not to try and produce a narrative that explains it.
I think a while back Samoa might have had one of the worlds highest rates of suicide- now it is Greenland- a country with one of the smallest populations in the world.....
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ed123 wrote: |
Getting back to th eorigional topic- small numbers = not meaningful.
You will always get clusters- and in small populations just a few incidents of problem x (which could be a rare cancer or suicide or infection) will give a news worthy result and it is almost impossible not to try and produce a narrative that explains it.
I think a while back Samoa might have had one of the worlds highest rates of suicide- now it is Greenland- a country with one of the smallest populations in the world..... |
I think the arctic nations all suffer. Low light and all that. I'm sure Finland used to be the highest in Europe.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@cameronphillips2000, argggggggghhhhhhhh......
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
I think this list of suicide rates by country is most interesting when you rank it by overall rate, lowest first.
In 170th (out of 170) equal place of suicide rates are: Syria and Saudi Arabia
In 168th (out of 170) equal place of suicide rates are: Lebennon and Kuwait
167 Oman ,166 Jamaica ,163 Egypt,163 Azerbaijan,163 Iraq ,162 Libya,161 Algeria,160 Jordan
Something which stands out (to me) regarding what is common about these countries.
1. They are warm all year round
2. Alcohol is mostly restricted or prohibited
3. Women are often made to cover up and not display overt sexuality in public
4. Religion is more fanatical, and might include doctrine which says suicide is wrong
This probably says more than looking at the countries with the highest suicide rates.
When you look at the list the other way around, you can eliminate 1 as the main factor as most of the top suicide countries are warm all year round too. India is an interesting country to look at, when considering the male/female ratio (females have much higher suicide rates in India)
There is a lot of oil in those countries with the lowest suicide rates, I am not sure if this is relevant.
India has a list of reasons for suicides in 2014. Mainly illness, and family/love/marriage issues.
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All over the world suicide is one of the leading causes of death of young and middle aged men. Reporting rates and patterns vary greatly- often depending on the cultural and legal systems in place. Methods vary by availability of lethal means- (so in the US having loaded handgun at home is one of the strongest predictors of completed suicide) as well as by local issues. For any issue reported by rate small sample size has a massive effect in making things look significant. Humans just can't help explaining "patterns' with a narrative - after the event.
coi- psychiatrist for the last 20 yrs
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Humans just can't help explaining "patterns' with a narrative - after the event.
Historians?
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Here is another example of the "press and journalists" explaining "patterns" with a narrative after the event
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36414082
Clearly the suicides in this case are not financially related (i.e. the directors involved would have had large bank balances and so not financially under pressure)
The loss of employment and status, is often a major trigger for men. Being humiliated, and isolated, is another trigger. However, in the boardroom people are conditioned to be isolated and accept humiliation.
The period shortly after the loss of status, or being separated or widowed, is the most likely to trigger suicide. This is the period of grief, which triggers depression and suicidal thoughts.
For me, ex-directors of companies committing suicide, indicates the only way they can draw attention to an issue. If they did nothing, they are silenced. Suicide draws attention to the issue.
What is the issue?
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| abc wrote: |
Sorry, the numbers don't seem to add up
And "females attempt suicide 3 times as often as males" reads to me as for every woman who died of suicide, 3 had attempted.
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No, that means for every instance of a man attempting suicide there are three instances of a female doing the same.
I only came on here to research Russian Skiing...
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Very sad but its life style choices which seem utimately to lead to this situation, people who choose to live by their wits and follow their dream of skiing/surfing/beach bumming need to recognise that one day they will wake up no longer able to "get by". It fine to live free of responsibility on a low income by choice when you are young but one day you will be old and frail and you may have no home, no family and no one to care any more. So very sad but very easy to see why.
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FAQ
