 Poster: A snowHead
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I imagine your kids are long past the intended remit of the L1 instructor qualification!
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Well possibly so but on our last ski trip we spend quite a lot of time on a chair overlooking the piste that was being used for a kids race meet (clubs from all over the area represented). We watched 10 and 11 year olds racing but also playing about between the top of the lift and the race start. They were WAY better skiers than the BASI L1 standard. And there were loads of them. What are we doing training instructors who can't ski as well as a half decent 11 year old? Just seems odd.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| jedster wrote: |
| What are we doing training instructors who can't ski as well as a half decent 11 year old? Just seems odd. |
It meets a demand. Most national ski instructor systems have multi-tier qualification structures, and the lowest level of these is not dissimilar across the range of systems.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| jedster wrote: |
Well possibly so but on our last ski trip we spend quite a lot of time on a chair overlooking the piste that was being used for a kids race meet (clubs from all over the area represented). We watched 10 and 11 year olds racing but also playing about between the top of the lift and the race start. They were WAY better skiers than the BASI L1 standard. And there were loads of them. What are we doing training instructors who can't ski as well as a half decent 11 year old? Just seems odd. |
Yes, that's why L1 instructors don't coach talented 10 year old racers! They typically teach kids/adults over on the magic carpet who are total beginners.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I suppose in fairness the FA will train very poor footballers like me to do basic training for young kids. That is a similar thing.
That said, being well aware of my limitations in that area I wasn't prepared to put myself forward as a football coach - just helped out a bit.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jedster wrote: |
| That said, being well aware of my limitations in that area I wasn't prepared to put myself forward as a football coach - just helped out a bit. |
Would you have been more effective when helping out a bit if you had done the L1 FA coaching badge?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yes, that's why L1 instructors don't coach talented 10 year old racers! They typically teach kids/adults over on the magic carpet who are total beginners.
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I get that - would have thought there were plenty of better skiers available to do those roles though. Perhaps I'm wrong. I don't think it is waste to have high quality technical role models even for beginners.
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| jedster wrote: |
Well possibly so but on our last ski trip we spend quite a lot of time on a chair overlooking the piste that was being used for a kids race meet (clubs from all over the area represented). We watched 10 and 11 year olds racing but also playing about between the top of the lift and the race start. They were WAY better skiers than the BASI L1 standard. And there were loads of them. What are we doing training instructors who can't ski as well as a half decent 11 year old? Just seems odd. |
Erm because the average pupil needing the services of a BASI L1 on a dry/indoor slope is a never ever or near beginner who is WAY WAY worse than an half decent 11 year old from an alpine nation who has been skiing since they could stand up.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think BASI L1 is a particularly high standard and tend to think that a fair number of people doing it will never practically teach beyond a few shifts in a snowdome. It's not ski instructor in the old skool "that person is a skiing god if I ever get half as good I'll be lucky" sense, but then it doesn't have to be.
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It's also plenty good enough for teaching total beginners in a snow dome. I think it serves its modest purpose quite well.
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But don't (and do do correct me if I'm wrong) BASI1s always have to have a BASI2 or higher helicoptering them while teaching, even after the 35h mandatory teaching completion thing.
BTW does a genuine Tufty club badge automatically fwd you into BASI2 on Grandfather rules? Because I've still got one of those from the 70's.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Quote: |
Yes, that's why L1 instructors don't coach talented 10 year old racers! They typically teach kids/adults over on the magic carpet who are total beginners.
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I get that - would have thought there were plenty of better skiers available to do those roles though. Perhaps I'm wrong. I don't think it is waste to have high quality technical role models even for beginners. |
So do you think a L3 or even a L2 instructor is going to be happy teaching newbies on the magic carpet all day? It's just not going to happen.
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@Richard_Sideways, No, after completing their 35 hours shadowing requirement, first aid, CRB and Child protection module they are fully qualified and can teach unsupervised in a snow dome or dry slope.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
But don't (and do do correct me if I'm wrong) BASI1s always have to have a BASI2 or higher helicoptering them while teaching, even after the 35h mandatory teaching completion thing.
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I thought they could teach on indoor slopes unsupervised, but not on a proper mountain - where they need to be supervised. Plus they can only work with beginners and early intermediates.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| But don't (and do do correct me if I'm wrong) BASI1s always have to have a BASI2 or higher helicoptering them while teaching, even after the 35h mandatory teaching completion thing. |
Not if teaching at an indoor snow dome/dry ski slope. L1s have responsibility for the class they are teaching without requiring direct supervision (although the nature of the environment probably means that other instructors are around).
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| BTW does a genuine Tufty club badge automatically fwd you into BASI2 on Grandfather rules? Because I've still got one of those from the 70's. |
No, but for a genuine Tufty Club badge ebay is your friend.
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@uktrailmonster, correct, in a very few scottish ski schools that are BASI Approved L1's can work in nursery areas under direct supervision of an L2 or higher....
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| No, but for a genuine Tufty Club badge ebay is your friend. |
Damn you- I had visions of enormous wealth once I'd sorted through a few boxes of childhood ephemera and scraped the encrusted Weetabix off it. Next you'll be telling me my ASA Gold Swimming badge ain't worth all that.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dave of the Marmottes, 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Re the unsupervised thing...
| BASI Website wrote: |
| Successful students will be issued a certification to work only on dry slopes or indoor snow slopes or in a mountain environment for a BASI Approved Ski School, if working under the direct supervision of a L2 or above qualified member (Direct supervision means within sight and hearing distance). |
I thought that the 35h thing was the mandatory supervised instructing thing to get you to L1... The website doesn't actually say that an L1 can take novices/early intermeds on their own even after the 35h.
@rob@rar, you call THAT GENUINE! Pfft. Cheap knockoff more like...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| @rob@rar, you call THAT GENUINE! Pfft. Cheap knockoff more like... |
Ahh, the dangers of eBay...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So do you think a L3 or even a L2 instructor is going to be happy teaching newbies on the magic carpet all day? It's just not going to happen.
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There are plenty of examples of that, though perhaps not full time. Some of us do it because we actually quite like teaching people to ski, and teaching complete beginners can be some of the most rewarding lessons.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| kieranm wrote: |
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So do you think a L3 or even a L2 instructor is going to be happy teaching newbies on the magic carpet all day? It's just not going to happen.
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There are plenty of examples of that, though perhaps not full time. Some of us do it because we actually quite like teaching people to ski, and teaching complete beginners can be some of the most rewarding lessons. |
+1
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| kieranm wrote: |
| Quote: |
So do you think a L3 or even a L2 instructor is going to be happy teaching newbies on the magic carpet all day? It's just not going to happen.
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There are plenty of examples of that, though perhaps not full time. Some of us do it because we actually quite like teaching people to ski, and teaching complete beginners can be some of the most rewarding lessons. |
Well if there were enough L2 and L3 instructors who did wish to spend a significant amount of their time in snowdomes, then there wouldn't be any demand for L1 instructors. I'd be interested to know what percentage of snow dome instructors are actually beyond L1?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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One of the reasons more don't go on to L2 or 3 is financial, both course costs and little to no extra pay after getting a higher qualification...
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...or they just leave once at L2.
Conversely Hillend mangages to retain a good number of L2s & a few L3s with no pay differentiation but a better starting rate.
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Back on topic, I am of the belief that I got better over the summers just by watching videos of great skiers (Plake et al,...) skiing bumps.
Seriously.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 30-04-16 0:17; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Holy question creep Batman!
So to answer the OP, IMHO you can improve MASSIVELY using indoor slopes. I do think you also need alpine skiing to supplement indoor training. I don't think you can improve on your own, you need some structure and outside influences to improve. Just turning up every week and skiing indoors won't improve you.
On the whole "tufty badge", I have my BASI L2. I have never taught since getting the qualification, however I think my personal skiing has improved massively and have helped friends and kids with a few pointers here and there. I do intend/hope to do some teaching if/when I retire but if I don't then worst case I've paid for some of the best technical instruction I have ever had in a fun but challenging environment, met some great people and got 2 Tufty badges, what is not to like 
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In order to become a "Great Skier", you need to be able to handle Ice, Crud, Fog, flat light, blizzards, Powder, all types of bumps, crowds on narrow pistes and steep Gullies....saying that, you can improve in a fridge and wake up those dormant skiing muscles.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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That's if you can stand being in a Snowdome. I've only been once but left early. I just found the whole place claustrophobic, dull and the opposite of why I like going skiing.
I'm sure some people love them though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| In order to become a "Great Skier", you need to be able to handle Ice, Crud, Fog, flat light, blizzards, Powder, all types of bumps, crowds on narrow pistes and steep Gullies....saying that, you can improve in a fridge and wake up those dormant skiing muscles. |
Sure, but if you nail your core technique skiing indoor or on plastic then all those "mountain" scenarios become so much easier to deal with.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
That's if you can stand being in a Snowdome. I've only been once but left early. I just found the whole place claustrophobic, dull and the opposite of why I like going skiing.
I'm sure some people love them though. |
I don't mind them, although I don't get excited about them either. I think you need to be focussing on learning something or practising something specific to get anything out of it. Just sliding down aimlessly is boring I agree and I also find the uber-slow uplifts painful.
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You know it makes sense.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| In order to become a "Great Skier", you need to be able to handle Ice, Crud, Fog, flat light, blizzards, Powder, all types of bumps, crowds on narrow pistes and steep Gullies....saying that, you can improve in a fridge and wake up those dormant skiing muscles. |
Sure, but if you nail your core technique skiing indoor or on plastic then all those "mountain" scenarios become so much easier to deal with. |
There is nothing like flat light and blizzard conditions to test the security of what one has learnt....skiing in easy conditions can flatter to deceive....but saying that, i would agree that it certainly has its place.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| In order to become a "Great Skier", you need to be able to handle Ice, Crud, Fog, flat light, blizzards, Powder, all types of bumps, crowds on narrow pistes and steep Gullies....saying that, you can improve in a fridge and wake up those dormant skiing muscles. |
Sure, but if you nail your core technique skiing indoor or on plastic then all those "mountain" scenarios become so much easier to deal with. |
There is nothing like flat light and blizzard conditions to test the security of what one has learnt....skiing in easy conditions can flatter to deceive....but saying that, i would agree that it certainly has its place. |
I dunno, I see a good 80% of people skiing badly in the easiest of conditions! First you have to learn to ski (and that part can be done pretty effectively in the fridge/dry slope) and then learn to apply those skills in more adverse conditions. Obviously the fridge doesn't give you the mountain experience, but it can provide the skill set required for most common situations. I remember my early days on the mountain, armed with a lot of training and practice on dry slopes (was even racing on dry slopes before I had any significant snow time) and I coped pretty well with varying conditions from the start. Certainly better than most of the ski club members who just went on the trips and didn't train on plastic all year round. I remember being pleasantly surprised to be honest.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@ Uktrailmonster
I think we are answering two different questions.
I was specifically answering the original post regarding whether you can become a "Great Skier", simply with regular practice in a Snowdome. Using my definition of a great (versatile) skier, would lead me to the opinion that you can't...for the reasons I stated.
This in no way takes away from your argument that it is very worthwhile and gives an advantage over those who don't (with a similar experience).
I also agree with the general standard of the holiday skier....there is no substitute for lessons, along with practice...especially in the type of conditions that you can only experience on a mountain.
I play Golf....the drivers are bigger and go further, the irons are much easier to hit, the putters are sexier, but handicaps haven't really improved in 30 years. Skiing is the same, with skis being much easier and more use-specific; and boots being technically better and more comfortable....but the standard is still poor; it's just people now go faster and venture off piste before they are ready. In the past, by the time a holiday skier could handle 2m straight skis off piste, they usually had a respect for the mountain.
In either sport, technology is no substitute for putting the hours in and getting proper tuition.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As others have already said yes it can and does help. Skiing the same run/terrain is often overlooked people get fixated with mileage skiing all the runs rather than finding one run be it made of plastic, indoors or in a resort and skiing it over and over, working on their technique having the confidence from knowing the run so well that they can push themselves.
Try doing the same 200m stretch of bumps in a fridge and see how you improve ( video the session ) if you work on your technique through the bumps most skiers will after a few hours see a marked improvement be it skiing more fluid or faster, in more control etc. the same goes for skiing short turns, skiing the cr*p at the sides or the icy line down the middle.
You get out of these sessions what you put in so be positive. You can if already fit from other sports become a very accomplished piste skier. Then you have a good reason for spending longer holidays skiing to bring your off-piste upto the same standard 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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[quote="balernoStu"]
| jedster wrote: |
The thing I find weird about BASI 1 is I would have expected that ski instructor training was about turning good skiers into good instructors not fixing the skiing in the first place. From what I can see, people doing technique training for BASI 1 are miles away from the standard of skiing that I would pay to use as an example, even for my kids. |
I imagine your kids are long past the intended remit of the L1 instructor qualification
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