 Poster: A snowHead
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Just because you do not see somebody adjusting the din settings - does not mean they are incorrect.
Back in 1988 I worked in Morgins in a hotel, and on change over days I would help the ski tech prep and hand out the skis, boots and poles for those who had booked through the hotel. The hotel did alternating weeks of SkiScope and Schools Abroad, and we prepped about 100 sets of skis per changeover. The TO supplied the boot size and ( declared ) weight ahead of time so that we could get a good run at getting the skis ready. It was quite often the case that skis only need a a quick wax from one client to the next, as often ( but not always ) people with similar size feet are of similar build ( height / weight ). The first thing we would do would be allocate all the skis that did not seem to need adjustment along with boots. The ski tech did the big repairs p-tex and stuff while I sorted the skis. When the people came, they would try the boots we had set aside, and if the boots were ok they would try bring them up the the pre-assigned skis, where the ski tech would push them in the bindings ( in case they had taken a different set of boots ), and check the DIN. 9 times out of 10 the DIN was ok because of the prep we had already done. It was very rare therefore that customers would see us adjusting the DIN, unless the data supplied about height, weight, experience, style etc was clearly wrong.
It is also worth noting that is some crashes the binding do not always release due to the mechanics of the crash. If there is no twisting at the toe or the heel is compressed they can stay on. This is why Tyrollia developed the 360 bindings where the toes lifted as they twisted. And Look developed the turntable heels so they would release under twisting.
It all seems very circumstantial, and devoid completely of personal responsibility.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Filthyphil30k, +1
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@WindOfChange, but even in that case they'd have needed my weight, which they didn't have.
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| Teekay wrote: |
| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
| @philwig, I've never heard of people being taught about bindings and how they're adjusted in lessons (or their importance in terms of safety). |
Not taught how to adjust them but we were told about the importance of having the bindings set correctly and making sure that we knew which were our skis due to the DIN setting being different for different people. |
It is one thing to know that bindings should be set correctly it is another thing to know that they have been set correctly and serviced properly.
That is something you have to take on trust from the ski shop.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| philwig wrote: |
| You can't "mitigate" against negligence in a contract in that way - the shop needs to take reasonable care, they can't make you sign a paper saying that they don't have to. Ditto the tour operator. |
What I meant by 'mitigate' is that the bit of paper you sign when you collect your skis probably has a clause along the lines of what's in the Skiset T&Cs, which states two things that I think could be relevant:
"Provide SKISET with actual, precise updated information, notably concerning their height, weight and shoe size"
"The RENTER declares having all the competences required for use of the ARTICLE(S) rented, and being able to judge the adequacy of their choice for their needs."
Negligence will always be negligence, and the above are a long way from covering most circumstances, but it certainly gives them a stepping off point.
She's on a wing and a prayer to get anything out of the TO though. I'd have thought to prove negligence they will need to show that the ski rental shop were incompetent on more than just this one occasion, or that the TO didn't have the right quality control for their suppliers.
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As others have commented, allegation is that din was incorrect meaning skis did not release leading to injured ACL.
Two points, aren't din settings calibrated to prevent broken bones, and have nothing to do with ligaments etc? So claim is fundamentally flawed.
And are metal pins and prosthetic rods normal treatment for ACL tear? Perhaps poor in resort treatment was part of problem?
I would not be surprised if claimant does not have evidence of what din setting was, but lawyers fishing for flaws in operator/hire shop/instructor paper trail to infer negligence by lack of paperwork.
Leeches
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| tarrantd wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Women are also more likely than men to suffer a serious knee injury due to ill-fitting ski boots - up to half of all knee injuries are caused by loose-fitting or over-tightened ski boots. |
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That's interesting, is that down to their feet being more varied or just a lack of getting them fitted properly?
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It's pretty obvious that the claim is being driven by a win-fee ambulance chaser.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think the women thing relates to our hips and the propensity for our knees to turn inwards more easily. 
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@under a new name, +1.
I suspect the lawyer firm obtained details of the accident from the insurance co. For the hospital costs. Approached what is a total beginner, and said 'we could get you ££££, it'll cost you nothing'. Knowing no better, and driven by potential financial settlement, she went along with it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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hmmm….lots of good observations, just a couple of things to add:
Forward pressure is much neglected, and it was important that the post above mentioned it.
Beginners often don't consider the obvious, that the best way to wreck your ACL is to tie two big levers to the bottom of your leg and then turn them really slowly. A fall at very slow speed is likely to be exactly the thing which the binding won't release on, even with exactly the right DIN setting, and this can be made significantly worse by not having the right forward pressure set up on the binding.
I have taught loads of beginners and when they are doing the kind of thing this woman was doing, have the DINs set really low - lower than the tables - and with the forward pressure set up very precisely. But that's only because I am with them, and assured that they are not doing anything where a pre-release would be dangerous.
but there are two further things…
Knee joints are protected by having well built up muscle around the joints; I wonder if she had launched into skiing with any degree of physical prep?
Also…interesting research:
Women aged over 25 are 2.5 times more likely to tear their anterior cruciate ligament than any other group. Fitness, or the lack of it, plays an important role in general. Women are also more likely than men to suffer a serious knee injury due to ill-fitting ski boots - up to half of all knee injuries are caused by loose-fitting or over-tightened ski boots.
from
http://www.kneeclinic.info/knee_sports_injuries_skiing.php
what's a bit weird about this woman's injuries is the extreme character of the procedure which was undertaken on her, I've seen lots of serious ACL tears and separations and nothing which I have seen regarding ACL has looked like this. Perhaps quite a lot of the real background is missing in the article.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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For many years I just assumed that hire shops, having been given all the relevant information, would get it right - every time. But then a shop in France gave a middle aged, average height/weight, female beginner a DIN setting of 7, front and back - she couldn't get her skis off at the end of the day and was lucky not to have been injured  - and we found that most other skis in our group from that shop were also set ridiculously high. I now know what the DIN setting should be for the level I ski at (and rarely go off-piste, so snow conditions don't make much difference); check hire skis every time; and often have to adjust down by 0.5-1.
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@ecureuil, what's average weight?
DIN 7 is not necessarily ridiculously high.
And the DIN setting shouldn't make it difficult to remove them.
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You know it makes sense.
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When I hired skis this winter in Bulgaria the hire shop took my weight and experience, fed these into their computer and it came up with a DIN setting of 4.5. I weigh about 75 kg and described myself as an intermediate skier so a setting of 7 seems high for an average weight female beginner.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DIN calculators came up with 6.5 for me (60 kgs) - I routinely ski on 8 or 9.
In the US I always, always have to waiver the shop and adjust them up myself.
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Poster: A snowHead
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When last hiring through a TO(in France) their ski tech refused to set my bindings above 6 or let me use his screwdriver to do it myself despite me hiring advanced skis and being 185cm/90kg. He had a strict table of settings to adhere to based on height and weight.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@JamesN, feel Sympathy for poor Lyndsay Vonn. Her tech won't let her go beyond 18 as only the "men" ski on 20.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Michelle63 wrote: |
| I think the women thing relates to our hips and the propensity for our knees to turn inwards more easily. |
Not the women I have met in Staines late on a Friday.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@under a new name, you are very light?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@abc,
It's on your head to be able to see that the bindings are correct or not.
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I haven't worked out the technical stuff about skis yet as am still trying to work out actually skiing. A week ago I had a pretty bad crash (on a flat bit of blue, caught na edge) and head butted the snow and bashed my shoulder. Neither of my skis came off. I'm not sure whether that was because it was a mainly forward fall but I took the skis and boots (both mine) to the shop and the boss checked them and did adjust them a little. I didn't hurt my knees/legs (but my shoulder still hurts like a Fitzwilliam - bloody camelbak pipe!!) but then the mechanics of each crash are so very different, how do you account for everything in a dangerous sport? (my summer sport is motorbikes, trackways and some racing)
| valais2 wrote: |
but there are two further things…
Knee joints are protected by having well built up muscle around the joints; I wonder if she had launched into skiing with any degree of physical prep?
Also…interesting research:
Women aged over 25 are 2.5 times more likely to tear their anterior cruciate ligament than any other group. Fitness, or the lack of it, plays an important role in general. Women are also more likely than men to suffer a serious knee injury due to ill-fitting ski boots - up to half of all knee injuries are caused by loose-fitting or over-tightened ski boots.
from
http://www.kneeclinic.info/knee_sports_injuries_skiing.php
what's a bit weird about this woman's injuries is the extreme character of the procedure which was undertaken on her, I've seen lots of serious ACL tears and separations and nothing which I have seen regarding ACL has looked like this. Perhaps quite a lot of the real background is missing in the article. |
The number of people I see in resort (and myself at the start of each season) that are not physically prepared to ski must account for a lot of skiing injuries. However, don't statistics show that as many or more injuries happen while the pistes are closed (apres and falling on ice etc?) Who do you sue if you get drunk and break your leg?
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Hopefully it will come to court and an expert witness is called. What was the DIN setting my learned friend? Should be over and done with in 5 minutes.........
But then the push is often to settle pre trial and the compo culture progresses.
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Bottom line should have purchased adequate insurance
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IInsurance against being too stupid to check your bindings are set right?
I suppose that would be a sort of "idiot tax", in which case fair enough, stupid people need stuff like that.
But you'd still get hurt, and money can't really fix that. I think it'd be better to engage brain before doing sport.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@philwig, A complete beginner may not have a clue about bindings, it would be down to the ski hire shop and you could argue that an instructor teaching beginners should check this as well.
However my view on life in general is that you are responsible for your own actions, so falling over and hurting yourself is your own fault.
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| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
| @WindOfChange, but even in that case they'd have needed my weight, which they didn't have. |
If you do this all day, every day, you can normally guess somebody's weight to within 7kg or so.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I don't normally rent skis but if I do, ie on a short break or at a snowdome, I just say to the man (not being sexist, it's always been a man), "Sole length 297, din 4, please". Never been questioned/challenged further, they've just done it.
When I first started skiing I didn't know what a din setting was. Or an ACL  .
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| chocksaway wrote: |
Hopefully it will come to court and an expert witness is called. What was the DIN setting my learned friend? Should be over and done with in 5 minutes.........
But then the push is often to settle pre trial and the compo culture progresses. |
Don't forget which erstwhile sH has a sideline in being an expert witness in ski litigation ( if not much modern experience of actually skiing).
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You know it makes sense.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Ahhhh, I think I can guess who you are talking about. I was thinking of one who I go boozing with regularly.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dave of the Marmottes, ...in contrast to this situation, when my son was 7, he was hit hard from behind by an idiot elderly skier going way too fast - a once good, now with poor reactions character - in that situation, my son's armour and helmet stopped something very serious from happening - if he had been permanently disabled and needed constant medical care I would have been (a) litigious and (b) hoped that the guy had some damned good insurance....
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| For many years I just assumed that hire shops, having been given all the relevant information, would get it right - every time. But then a shop in France gave a middle aged, average height/weight, female beginner a DIN setting of 7, front and back - she couldn't get her skis off at the end of the day and was lucky not to have been injured - and we found that most other skis in our group from that shop were also set ridiculously high. I now know what the DIN setting should be for the level I ski at (and rarely go off-piste, so snow conditions don't make much difference); check hire skis every time; and often have to adjust down by 0.5-1. |
My first ever ski trip, I obviously knew virtually nothing about DIN settings or binding adjustments, beyond knowing that they needed to be set differently for each individual. I had taken two lessons on the dry slope in Cardiff before leaving, so the instructor said I should go into the level 1 lessons (which started on Monday) rather than the absolute beginner "never put a pair of skis on" lessons (which started on Sunday). So I was skiing on the Sunday by myself, with just two hours of lessons. This was Verbier.
So I go to the ski shop the first afternoon, tell them I am a beginner, give them my weight (at the time was 15 stone, shoe size UK 9), and just assumed they would have set the bindings correctly.
It turns out they had set them way too high, and when I had a fall (unsurprisingly) late on the first afternoon, my skis didn't release when they should have, and I wrenched my right knee quite badly.
Luckily, although I couldn't walk without limping for the rest of the week, the way I had hurt it didn't stop me skiing without much pain.
When a more experienced skier in the chalet had a look at them, he reckoned they should be set at 6.5 for my weight and boot size, and maybe half a point lower due to being a beginner, but they had actually been set to 9.
Since that trip I have always skied on bindings set to 6.5, and I have never had a ski not come off when needed, and have also never had a pre-release except once when I hadn't seated the boot properly. I probably should adjust them up a bit, since I have put on about a stone in weight since then, but since they aren't pre-releasing, I don't see the need (I have had my own skies for about the last 10 years).
[EDIT]
Since I am now also over 50, that would inidicate a lower binding setting, so I shouldn't be setting them higher 
Some of the sites for calculating bindings suggest they should now be 5, others are suggesting 6 for my age/height/weight/boot length/skier type (2).
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 29-02-16 10:53; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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as an instructor we aren't allowed to touch the bindings of someone we are teaching, at hemel I have to send them back in to get them adjusted.
It was suggested in our training if on a mountain and someone is popping out constantly to find a screw driver, usually at a lift station and suggest an adjustment, but we can't actually do it. Obviously we know what the din's mean and can look at the size of boot and check the binding (assuming rental/adjustable) size then suggest an adjustment with disclaimer.
Someone hiring ski's has to put trust in the ski tech who set them up, they should be trained. Obviously a beginner would have no idea about din's or bindings, I will talk about a binding before they put their ski's on for the first time, but I won't go into the calculations on dins, just mention it's there to potentially release the ski if enough force is applied in the right place.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| philwig wrote: |
IInsurance against being too stupid to check your bindings are set right?
I suppose that would be a sort of "idiot tax", in which case fair enough, stupid people need stuff like that.
But you'd still get hurt, and money can't really fix that. I think it'd be better to engage brain before doing sport. |
I doubt very much that 1 in 1000 beginners would have the slightest clue how to check whether they are set right.
While the charts are fairly readily available on the internet, they are not something you would expect a beginner skier to know about.
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I think she has a case IF the binding DINs were set too high OR malfunctioned due to poor service. But assuming that the skis are now long gone and there is no direct evidence of the actual DIN setting, then it would come down to examining the procedures used in the hire shop to set the DINs and service the hire skis. Do they ask and document their customers' weight, height, boot sole length and skill level so that they can determine the correct DIN setting? Do they have a binding release checking machine? Are the skis regularly serviced and inspected? I reckon if her lawyers can prove negligence in the hire shop's procedures for dishing out hire skis then she will probably win her case and rightly so. But if the hire shop is following a well documented procedure and demonstrating best practice in service and DIN setting, then she shouldn't win unless there is direct evidence that the DIN settings were incorrectly set on her skis. But I would not be surprised if they were miles out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| philwig wrote: |
IInsurance against being too stupid to check your bindings are set right?
I suppose that would be a sort of "idiot tax", in which case fair enough, stupid people need stuff like that.
But you'd still get hurt, and money can't really fix that. I think it'd be better to engage brain before doing sport. |
Yeah I'm sure you checked your DIN settings against a chart the very first time you ever went skiing 
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Like others I dont understand the "treatment" but as far as the claim is concerned this seems to me to be somewhat typical of the era in which we live - "I had an accident someone must be to blame". Sometimes this is true but often it isnt, skiing carries inherent risks. End of.
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IMO the beginner has a right to expect the hire shop to set up the equipment correctly provided he/she has given the correct information regarding height/weight/experience. The legal position will vary from country to country. The TO has only been negligent if they recommend a hire shop that they know is not competent. Of course it is much easier for a UK resident/lawyer to sue a UK based TO rather than a foreign hire shop and besides they are probably hoping for an out-of-court settlement from the TO in order to avoid bad publicity. The TO is probably covered by indemnity insurance so their increased premiums next season will be reflected in their prices.
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| Rabbie wrote: |
| IMO the beginner has a right to expect the hire shop to set up the equipment correctly provided he/she has given the correct information regarding height/weight/experience. The legal position will vary from country to country. The TO has only been negligent if they recommend a hire shop that they know is not competent. Of course it is much easier for a UK resident/lawyer to sue a UK based TO rather than a foreign hire shop and besides they are probably hoping for an out-of-court settlement from the TO in order to avoid bad publicity. The TO is probably covered by indemnity insurance so their increased premiums next season will be reflected in their prices. |
The Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992 make the TO liable for the carrying out of services by their suppliers. In this case, the hire shop, assuming the ski hire was booked as part of the package.
So if the ski hire was booked through the TO, and the hire shop were negligent, then both the shop and the TO are liable for any resulting damages.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 29-02-16 12:52; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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To my absolute shame, it is only since owning my own skis (about a year!) that I have taken an interest in my bindings and making sure they are set properly. They regularly get removed for transportation, so I have to be able to reinstate then correctly.
I had always just assumed hire shops knew what they were doing, have been lucky enough not to suffer an injury, and generally skis have released as expected. When that hasn't happened, I've returned to the shop for adjustment (once for pre-release, once for an apparent jam). Saying that though, when I changed my boots, my DIN changed due to the smaller BSL. I had a pair of borrowed skis that needed adjusting to my new boots, so I took them with me to the shop. They set them to DIN 5, but when I checked the chart myself, I would only be a 5 if I was a beginner, which I'm not.
@spyderjon spent some time explaining DINs and forward pressure, so I'm confident I can set my own skis up now, but I'd never really thought about it before and I'm sure many people, especially new skiers, are the same.
Regarding the OP, it looks like she's been persuaded to take this route by ambulance chasers looking to make an easy return. Not a numpty, just a beginner who had an unfortunate accident. I'd be surprised if she had a case unless the shop can be proved to be useless. It does upset me how the tabloids like to present skiing though, as if the only line they missed from the article is the one calling for it to be banned
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Must admit that when I was a beginner I had no idea about DIN settings. IMO DIN settings should be taught in the first lesson along with "this is a ski, this is how you put it on and get it off".....
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FAQ
One bloke even thought I meant 110 pounds...I think it must have been the end of a long day 
