Collision risk: what are we going to do about it?

A snowHead

It might be dangerous to go skiing but it seems it's far more risky to post under a pseudonym. Or to disagree with Comedy Goldsmith.

A snowHead

davidhammy: "It might be dangerous to go skiing but it seems it's far more risky to post under a pseudonym. Or to disagree with Comedy Goldsmith."

Well, no, don't get me wrong. I just believe in that old principle that you shouldn't post something personal about somebody else (be they a scribbler or anyone else) that you wouldn't say to their face. The user of a mask is hiding behind one, and shouldn't expect anyone to play games to establish their real name.

I have no problem with pseudonyms at all if they're used to play the ball (rather than the player).

Anyone who agrees with the comedy judge's view - shared by rob@rar apparently - that collisions are an inherent risk of skiing might benefit from a read of these two documents ... below (from a US lawyer) and right (from the FIS) ...

Skiers’ Rights and Responsibilities in Skier Collisions
http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/skiers-rights-and-responsibilities-in-skier-collisions

The FIS rules can and will be referenced in law, and courts of law, in collision cases.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I went to Val Thorens for the first time over Christmas. While there are some nice things about the pistes I found the place over-crowded and the layout of the town basically invites collisions to happen.

There's the run from the top of the Plein Sud lift back to town which was always really busy with skiers of all skill levels. At the same time it doesn't look like the run gets groomed much. There were many people who are struggling with the bumpy terrain and stopping a lot mixed with faster skiers. The speed difference is huge.

Then there's the wide green (?) run to the side of the town that leads to all the lifts (Plien Sud, Cascades, Peclet, 2 Lacs, etc). Not only was it extremely overcrowded but you get criss-crossing across the run as people head to their lifts. From what I could tell, this seemed to be the only green run in town for beginners and I did see some lessons there.

On both these runs I kept getting my skis clipped from people darting in front or behind me. First time I've ever had anyone ski/board that close to me. I was happier once we got higher up (Had a few nice runs at Peclet, Cascades and the Orelle side), just coming back through the town was horrible.

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Comedy Goldsmith, as I said, back in the real world. But you know that and you know you're just being silly, so no more from me on this.

After all it is free

Ban Helmets!

rob, I can see why you make that point, but legal defence is the essence of this. If more people realised that "inherent risk" is not a defence, should they want to ski recklessly (certainly in British/European legislatures) they might ski with more control.

The comedy judge referred to may be speaking for the Colorado Ski Safety Act, which reversed traditional 'blame' legislation to protect the commercial interests of ski resorts and professionals. It's not so easy to sue for negligence in ski accidents there, and in other US states, now. The rejection of the previous legislation was clearly an over-reaction.

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I want to add my viewpoint here. I haven't read and followed ALL the discussion above. These are my and my partners 'incidents in the last 6 years.
2007 me. Indoor fridge, hit sudden patch of wet elephant snow. Fell forward fast onto shoulder, initially fine, then frozen shoulder for 3 months.

2008 me . skis off, walking into Cafe on slope , slipped on ICY door rug - apex over base, MASSIVE bruise on hip. 2 days later, skis off, walking down trail to iced up waterfall, slipped on icey path, same hip again!
2008 her. 3 day beginner, on skis, fell backwards on Coccyx - never been the same since but almost completely over now.

2009 me. standing stationary on skis, somebody caught my attention and whilst looking sideways, slightly backwards, i just fell backwards with holding my ski stick and fell onto my thumb severely twisting with massive swelling - very lumpy now still. Blistered all my shins do jumping exercise in too big boots. Always ski with Epitacts now or i'll get blisters. Yes been to CEM, still get blisters/ have to be careful etc.

2010 me on first hot day took helmet off and within 2 hours hit snow cookie causing forward fall onto skis shaving off some forehead skin and punching my jaw with my injured thumb. Tignes doc opinionated 'skiing is risky'.

2010 her. In ski school, fell and twisted/pulled MCL. Needed surgery. 4 weeks off work.

2011 no injuries.

2012 her. under instruction from me, she ploughed at speed into the back of me! Shoulder injury (minor but can still get stiff) for her and broken goggle. Me, nothing this time.

Surprisingly, i love to ski. I don't do enough really. But, if i look at our recent history it's difficult to say that risk isn't everywhere when we go skiing. Anyone that disagrees i would not listen too much.

I will always go skiing mind you as it thrills me like no other experience and i still think i'm a lucky guy usually. Prevention of silly accidents would stop me from doing anything. I wear a reasonable amount of protection now - perhaps too much. Cheers.

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Tim Heeney, Laughing

wowzers, remind me never to ski with you Laughing

kfyh, Alpe d'Huez has greens running into the Centre that are far too busy, with skiers of all abilities funnelled in from runs higher up. The speed in general is way too fast and I wish those who run the resort would address it.

Just got back from Monrgenevre and though it was busy it wasnt stupid busy. We mostly skied over to the Italian side and had loads of runs to ourselves. The debutant area was respected as such and skiers all had moderate speed in this area.

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Aren't the discussions in this thread really just hypothetical ones from some kind of dystopian, parallel universe ?

You know it makes sense.

Comedy Goldsmith, "I just believe in that old principle that you shouldn't post something personal about somebody else (be they a scribbler or anyone else) that you wouldn't say to their face. "

I'd happily say it to his face. I'd happily ask him to justify his claims on the growing ski market and justify why he didn't use absolute rather than relative statistics.

Euqllay, I'd happily ask you to your face, when did you last ski in the alps and how many days have you skied, on snow, in the alps in the last 3 years??

PS I just had the most marvellous, first ever, Nordic Skating lesson. Fab fun, I feel expense approaching Laughing

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

under a new name,

A snowHead

I've had over 30 weeks on snow and have neither witnessed nor been involved in a collision. Granted, I am only one person out of millions skiing annually but no one else I have skied with has told me about collisions (including boarders).

So, am I and my known skier/boarder friends the exception or is this more sensationalist crap?

A snowHead

I have only had bad collisions in Andorra. However, they were usually more injured than myself....

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Shimmy Alcott, I need a sign on my back - 'STEER CLEAR - you have been WARNED!

Ski with me! - you must be out of your mind!

Argh, not really, just joking.

I'm putting it all down to a bad run - that's all.

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Zero_G, there's a similar discussion going on in stewart woodward's 'invulnerable skier' thread. Please don't tempt fate/do touch wood!!

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Our last ski trip resulted in 2 collisions.....

1) Another skier at speed cut across my wife path, skied over the top of her skis causing her to be catapulted forward head first onto a very icy piste (im glad she was wearing a helmet)

2) On a slow green run back to valley my sister-in-law got hit from behind by a boarder who was going far too fast....she was wearing a helmet but ended up in hospital as a result

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The Flying Gooseberry, I can't keep up!

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Zero_G, I am surprised that with 30 weeks on the snow you have never witnessed (or seen the evidence i'm assuming to) of a collision. I would say that it is unusual in a weeks skiing NOT to have seen an accident on the slope somehow caused, or NOT to see a bloodwagon going down the piste-of course, its quite unusual to 'see' why the skier has had to be rescued though. I have seen a few 'collisions' - perhaps 3 or 4 in 50 weeks skiing.

After all it is free

Tim Heeney, I've only seen two serious collisions (one of which involved me), not sure how many weeks skiing I've done but quite a lot. I'd guess that the majority of collisions and near misses happen within the same group. Not to say that random collisions don't occur, of course, but good group discipline will reduce the chances of collision (a point which I constantly make to the people I'm teaching).

Tim Heeney, I have seen plenty of blood wagons and downed skiers/boarders but have never seen a collision between two (or more) slope users.

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Zero_G, OK i understand and agree with you. To 'see' a collision is rare.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Comedy Goldsmith, there is an inherent risk of collision that could cause injury in skiing and driving that doesn't mean someone isn't responsible when one happens. You're conflating two things that don't need to be conflated.

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rob@rar, You must teach your students well. I believe it's quite an Instructors hazard to be skied into. I know now never to ski infront of a skier on a steep~ish slope who can't finish their turns uphill. still, she came off much worse - there is a god after all. OOps, sorry darling, did i ski out in front of you! (ps, i normally love her dearly)

Zero_G, I'm with you. I've skied one full season and 18 ski holidays. Never been in or witnessed a collision. Seen a few accidents, but nothing really major, my worst injury was a big purpley bruise on my hip.

You know it makes sense.

Please don't tempt fate, guys. See valais2's latest thread. Sad

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

We tried to use rob@rar as a stopping cushion - but he was too fast for us Wink

only accident I have had was when skiing in low snow levels - on a slope I knew well - the leap off the bump was apparently impressive - and would have been better had I landed it - but a minor pulled tendon in the arm was all - never had a collision

Alasdair

A snowHead

This is the start of my 13th season of skiing many weeks a year. In that time I have seen remarkably few collisions (the fact that one of the few broke my pelvis last January is just a bit unlucky but doesn't affect my viewpoint). However, I don't ski in the school holiday times and I can't see any pleasure in lift queues and crowded pistes - I spent last week, the New Year week, cross-country skiing. I also ski in an area which is not known for challenging skiing but where the average person (the vast majority French) is reasonably competent and there are few "boy racers" in the lower season periods.

I would not do any downhill skiing at all if I could only ski on crowded pistes with big lift queues. Partly because of collision risk but mostly because it just doesn't appeal and I suspect that as time goes on I will do more cross country skiing; there is a magnificent XC area here, and it makes sense to take advantage of it.

My daughter and son in law, both competent and experienced skiers but also teachers had a holiday with UCPA in Flaine some years ago, at half term in a year with poor snow cover. They were both a bit freaked out by the horrendously crowded pistes and have both said they would not ski again in those conditions - they are now rather spoilt by the much quieter conditions in the Espace Diamant, not to mention built-in childcare and transfer driving. wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

In amongst all this childish name calling (most of which I have not read), here's my penny's worth.
Skiing is inherently risky. No snowhead, now matter how experienced he or she is now, can claim they never have lost control and fallen over. Maybe not now, oh perfect ones, but in the murky depths of their ski history. Anyone who claims otherwise is just being disingenuous. Sometimes that falling over can involve crashing into someone else. Confession. I have done it. I have never injured anyone in so doing, but maybe that's just luck.

That does not mean however, that there aren't idiots out there (just to add to the controversy, usually male! Laughing

), who hurtle down the slopes with their bottoms sticking out in an uncontrolled snow plough, who believe they are beyond lessons.
Unlike driving a car where a basic minimum standard is expected, with skiing the range of ability on any piste is huge. The experts need to be wary of beginners and we all need to anticipate, anticipate, and anticipate.
Some rules of the road I wish were made and enforced. This is not an exhaustive list, but are rules that are clear and can be complied with.

1. Always stop at the side not the middle of a piste (unless by a snow cannon or the like). Don't stop just below a ridge so you cannot be seen from above.
2. check over shoulder before pulling to the side.
3. Check up the hill before starting off again.
4. Anticipate that the skier in front of you is not necessarily completely in control.

Asking every skier to ski "in control" is all very well in theory, but as those of us who fall over are aware, it's a counsel of perfection. All you can ask is that people do their best to ski in control.
Having said that, reckless loonies hurtling down the piste, do get the sharp end of my tongue!

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Amusingly, thankfully, we witnessed a collision this very Friday. Two very inexperienced skiers, travelling very slowly on a gentle blue run, slowly, slowly gravitated towards each other, and bounced off. Cue two balls of chaos, no-one hurt except egos as sadly they wer below a busy chairlift and we had spared no effort in atte,pting to warn them.

Stop the brutal grooming.

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akirk,

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My only injury from the last 10 years was having someone going very fast clip me from behind. I was doing regular carved turns down a completely empty piste with some friends following me some way back. He spun me around and only one ski came off, so I tore an ACL. I have been hit 2 other times by out of control skiers - once from behind about 20 years ago (he was blasting down at the end of the day, taking a red run straight and came over a lip to find me in the way) and once recently when I was stationary at the bottom (he ploughed into a group of us). Long ago I once also collided with someone I was skiing with (we turned towards each other at the same moment - I half turned away again but he couldn't. Felt very stupid).
I feel much safer off piste where I am 90% of the time.

By the way, this will be my first season with a helmet. None of my friends (or guides) used to have them but last year I was in the minority - and even 2 guides I ski with had them (though most still don't).

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Has not-comedy Goldsmitheo flounceo'd off(eo)?

After all it is free

The faster you ski. the sooner you get to the bottom of the run, the less time you spend on the run, so the less likely you are to have a collision. Therefore faster = safer. Simples logic, innit.

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nah, hes probably just got a gig on at work and will be back very soon...

Help!!

Collision risk: what are we going to do about it?

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