I've said everything I have to say on this matter.
You do that and I think I'll add 'Coward' to the term 'selfish'. If you truly believe that you viewpoint has validity then you must have an argument equal to ours to support it, if you don't then it is easy to admit you could be wrong, even if you still want to enjoy naked skiing on your own terms. Tell me, as I am genuinely intrested - do you enschew safety in all aspects of your life. For example as per my questions and comments above?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Comedy Goldsmith, unable to deal with a barrage of thoughtful considered posts slinks off into the night ready to spam some dull news at any opportunity.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum, you know better than to try to pin Goldsmith to one of his opinions. Only He is allowed to ask the questions of others...
After all he's a Proper Journalist...
I believe in self-sufficiency within my group and a willingness to help out others in need.
Having seen someone engulfed by an avalanche and knowing we (my friend and me) were the first on scene I would have found it pretty difficult if I couldn’t help. My first though (after “holy f**k!!!) was to help, without the knowledge of what to do and the kit to allow me to, I couldn’t have done.
I thought it was human nature to want to help your fellow man when in need, especially someone whom you can empathise with through common passions. I (obviously incorrectly) believe that those in the outdoor community are more likely to be willing to help out.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Comedy Goldsmith wrote:
I've said everything I have to say on this matter. And shall continue to ski naked off-piste, with a clear conscience, doing me best not to set off avalanches.
Though you've admitted that your best isn't likely to be a very good effort.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 18-12-13 12:20; edited 1 time in total
clarky999, Clearly you don't want to be on same bit of hill as him, so the next time you see naked skier off-piste I'd give them a wide berth - it might be DG!.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
DG can be easily identified by the yards of colourful ribbon cascading from his boots, the indent on his back where his freebie Salomon backpack used to sit, and the mile-wide chip on his shoulder.
After all it is free
After all it is free
galpinos,
Quote:
I (obviously incorrectly) believe that those in the outdoor community are more likely to be willing to help out.
I wouldn't let the views of someone that is clearly in the minority change your view. I think the vast majority of SH with probably one exception would help out. For my sins, I'd even go out of my way to help Comedy Goldsmith with what ever kit I had to hand if I was able to render assistance, as I'd like to think that every SH I've ever met would do the same. However, I think I shall take extra care of myself if I was to ever be in a position where DG was my only available resource. As I clearly couldn't rely on him having suitable kit to assist .
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Kit is no use without training on how to use it - so if CG/DG isn't trained in using that kit he probably isn't going to use it correctly. Transceiver really only needs to be switched on. Irresponsible to not take some "recognised and reasonable" precautions to aid rescue of yourself or to assist others (if you know what to do). That doesn't mean you need to take a search helicopter with you (or a RIB to the beach). If you can't identify what are recognised and reasonable precautions then you shouldn't be skiing off-piste. It is well documented enough to be able to say it is NOT enough to do nothing or make no attempt to mitigate against potential disasters.
I hate all this freedom/liberty nonsense connected to skiing. It's not a right or an entitlement, it is a risky activity and that risk may increase depending on a number of factors including your own ignorance. You can chose to ignore the risks but they do not then suddenly disappear.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
johnnyh, Mind you these days ignorance is hardly an excuse is it? Whilst I admit there is no substitute for practical experience, the internet can provide theoretical guidance in very little time on how to use standard avi equipment. I don't ski off-piste, but I have still familiarised myself with the procedures. Even I (and also my kids!) can find hidden multiple transceivers in a field should we ever need to.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
The "I wouldn't know how to use the equipment anyway" argument doesn't stack up either.
A Transciever only needs to be switched on (although it's only fair you know how to use it to save others). You don't need an instruction manual to work a shovel - digging with hands isn't very effective and it can mean the difference between getting someone partially buried out or not within 15 to 30 min timeframe they have left to live.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 18-12-13 14:53; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
If we are posting informational videos on the subject, which seems at the very least timely (although some have been skiing for several weeks already). I quite liked this interactive training animation/video http://www.mammut.ch/barryvoxtraining
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Like Pete Goss turning into the teeth of storm force winds to go back and rescue Raphael Dinnelli, his rival in the Vendée Globe.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
We all know that:
1) David has strong views
2) These are not always evidence based
3) He is often absolutely unwilling to change them.
4) If you challenge them enough, he will entrench his position, make bad jokes, and then sometimes get rather personal.
5) He - pretty well alone amongst snowHeads - is reluctant to say where and when he goes skiing - to share his recent experience and joy.
6) There is probably little chance that he will be skiing off-piste in a place near you
7) He wouldn't fly to ski - so he isn't going to Japan (or the US or Chile) anytime soon.
Given 2) & 6) - there is absolutely no point in engaging with him, and also no point in letting him hijack the thread away from what was a very useful insight into skiing in Japan.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
stoat of the dead, agree with all - I was also thinking that it was detracting from the thread, but perhaps the videos are timely. Indeed skiing in Japan sounds completely different from Europe. My gut (and completely uninformed) feeling is that it might possibly be 'less developed'/formally organised than European skiing. If that was the case then maybe 'rescue' is also less efficient and maybe that is even more reason for any off-piste party to go out better equiped?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I actually thought he was playing devils advocate as would be expected of such a self praising investigative journalist with an impressive knowledge of ski history and involvement in the industy.
How disappointing.
"never underestimate the predictability of stupidity"
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
To bring this back on track as I see it.
A piste is a run groomed by a machine.
Off-piste is everything else.
However and it's a big HOWEVER you have off-piste terrain within the resort area boundary and off-piste which is outside the resort area boundary.
The Niseko United ski area is more akin to N American ski areas where there are off-piste runs and areas within the resort area boundary that are either avalanche patrolled and/or skied frequently enough to minimise the risk of avalanche.
As such the wearing of a transceiver and carrying a shovel & probe is not enforced and isn't necessary IMHO.
Outside of the ski area the wearing of a transceiver and carrying a shovel & probe is not enforced but is necessary IMHO.
I've reread the OP's first post in this thread and the guide they spoke with is communicating a viewpoint shared by the majority in the Niseko area and also by the resort.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mike Pow wrote:
I've reread the OP's first post in this thread and the guide they spoke with is communicating a viewpoint shared by the majority in the Niseko area and also by the resort.
Presumably if the OP is engaging a guide they want to ski outside the gates? Seems a long way to travel to ski inbounds only, and even if that's the plan the temptation to head out through some of the gates to find awesome snow will be strong. For that reason if no other I'd recommend wearing and carrying avy kit.
Mike Pow, Nail/Head. Think it all boils down to the concepts of On-piste and Off-piste, Inbound terrain and Outbound terrain. My experiences in NA have been similar. When riding under instruction, inbound but off trail, i've never been advised to carry Ave kit.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Good to get back on topic!
It's worth noting that the guide I spoke with was referring to not needing equipment outside of the shop (not just for on resort off piste )
After all it is free
After all it is free
Mike Pow wrote:
To bring this back on track as I see it.
A piste is a run groomed by a machine.
Off-piste is everything else.
I completely agree with that and I'd always believed everyone would hold the same view of the definition but it turns out that there's no consensus to the view. I've discussed this in the context of the Nevis Range back bowls with another snowhead a couple of times on these forums over the last few seasons and he'd maintained that 'off-piste' cannot include runs marked on a piste map, and a run, even if never groomed, should be considered a piste if it appears on a map. In the context of Nevis Range, that never made sense to me as there were never any markers in the runs themselves and at best, sometimes, a stick or post indicating the general area of their entrances. Glencoe's Flypaper, Scotland's properly steep, double diamond piste mapped run is also ungroomed. It's often inaccessible by motor anyway but even if it could be reached, there are no winch points to cable the grooming machine safely up and down its minimum 40 degree slope. It slides so often that few entering it would consider it effectively immune from avalanche risk whether it is officially open or not.
It's noteworthy that Nevis Range have recently changed their description of all the terrain to clarify the status of everything over the other side with the important distinction being that people should never consider that terrain to be safe or been 'made safe' place from avalanche risks.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Comedy Goldsmith, Hope you are not serious.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
John McEnroe wrote:
Comedy Goldsmith, Hope you are not serious.
I am deadly serious.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
never summer,
CG wrote:
Quote:
I am deadly serious.
Unfortunately with the enphasis on 'deadly'
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
I've reread the OP's first post in this thread and the guide they spoke with is communicating a viewpoint shared by the majority in the Niseko area and also by the resort.
Presumably if the OP is engaging a guide they want to ski outside the gates? Seems a long way to travel to ski inbounds only, and even if that's the plan the temptation to head out through some of the gates to find awesome snow will be strong. For that reason if no other I'd recommend wearing and carrying avy kit.
As has been recommended earlier, if the OP and group want to learn to ski powder then they would be better served hiring an instructor who would teach them on and off the groomed runs within the resort area boundaries.
I only instruct within the resort area boundaries and as can be seen from my season reports my students and I don't have trouble finding powder.
If the OP and group want to explore the terrain outside of the ski area boundaries then they would be better served hiring a guide, and wearing a transceiver and carrying a shovel & a probe. And have the knowledge of how to use this equipment.
Mike Pow wrote:
Outside of the ski area the wearing of a transceiver and carrying a shovel & probe is not enforced but is necessary IMHO.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
thomaspassmore wrote:
Good to get back on topic!
It's worth noting that the guide I spoke with was referring to not needing equipment outside of the shop (not just for on resort off piste )
I'm presuming that you meant "outside of the ski area / beyond the gates".
If that is the case then the guide should be avoided.
It's your call to divulge the identity of the guide and company to the readers of this thread.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
avalanche patrols are less effective, when trying to find a buried person who is not wearing a transceiver.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
pam w wrote:
Like Pete Goss turning into the teeth of storm force winds to go back and rescue Raphael Dinnelli, his rival in the Vendée Globe.
Indeed; and what a job he did.
CG, please tell us where you ski; so we can go else where.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
scooby_simon, just for that I'm coming round to ski at Gosling in Welwyn, irrespective of the avalanche risk.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
scooby_simon wrote:
CG, please tell us where you ski; so we can go else where.
Well, you'll be OK if you go skiing in Utopia 2000. Unfortunately, wherever you go, that person setting off the slide above you probably isn't equipped to rescue you - this forum is populated by mainly responsible, aware individuals from the Ukay but you are sharing the off piste with a cornucopia of nationals who, you'd best assume, ain't got a clue. And by "equipped" I'm not necessarily talking about having the gear, I'm talking about their ability to pick their way exhausted down the debris, have the nous to know where to commence the search, raise the alarm, basically be calm and efficient under pressure etc etc etc. Real life situations are so so different from practice. Very few people go on mountain safety courses of any kind, even fewer have practical experience, and, as we saw from tuesday's incident in Lech, even a deployed airbag on a level 1 day might not save you. I'm not offering any answers save to say you can only influence what you and your immediate group do regards safety anyway.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum wrote:
Quote:
I've said everything I have to say on this matter.
You do that and I think I'll add 'Coward' to the term 'selfish'. If you truly believe that you viewpoint has validity then you must have an argument equal to ours to support it, if you don't then it is easy to admit you could be wrong, even if you still want to enjoy naked skiing on your own terms. Tell me, as I am genuinely intrested - do you enschew safety in all aspects of your life. For example as per my questions and comments above?
... an audit trail of obstinate selective quoting and self-justification ...
Good heavens, that's a bit rich. I just had a scan through that old thread and it struck me as a bunch of semi-intelligent people having a reasoned discussion.
The funny thing is much of it seems to be about money. The cheap solutions - Recco, avalanche cord, whistle (does anyone ever mention the value of a whistle in mountain emergencies?) - always get ignored/dissed, because 'the industry' is out to make avalanche retrieval a feast of tech.
I'm not saying that airbags and transceivers don't work, but we've just seen another example of a disaster - in Lech - where a fully-equipped group led by a professional did not escape death and very serious injury. Avalanches really are horrendously deadly and limb-battering/churning affairs - like being swept downhill by flowing concrete mixed up with all sorts of debris. I guess there's a chance of floating in all that, but ...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Your paranoia over people trying to sell technical innovations into the secondary safety market is well documented CG
New technology comes along to try to covercome the limitations of old technology, and yes there is a cost involved with that - Its about trying to take responsibility for your secondary safety (and I accept that primary safety is infinitely preferable to secondary). Yes, a beacon is more expensive that Recco, ave cords and whistles, but they do allow you to search for a fully buried victim which those do not unless you have a Recco Detector, or the cords didn't get detatched or tangled and buried and as you implied, you well know how able an avalanche victim is to locate and blow a whistle once buried.
We're all well aware that theres a chance that you'll be dead before you stop moving no matter what precautions you've taken. Theres a chance that you'll rupture a major organ and bleed out in minutes whether you're found or not, receive a head injury that'll leave you a vegetable or break your spine in a dozen places. There are dozens of unhappy outcomes which could happen, but you don't know until you find someone, so it's best to find them as fast as possible.
Frankly, it is a good job you prefer to ski alone, as I'd be amazed that you would be able to find anyone as reckless as yourself to ski with you.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Comedy Goldsmith, 'semi-intelligent'? We know very little about the Lech incident, so no point you bring that to the table just yet.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Richard_Sideways wrote:
reckless
Another pejorative word. That's OK, but of course many lay people would regard the mere act of skiing off-piste as akin to Russian roulette.
So, at best, we're dealing with various shades of recklessness. I'd simply argue that 'the industry' - as with helmets - is really good at whipping people up into a frenzy about the potential of escaping death/crippling by avalanche.
I simply prefer to ski without a sackful of clobber on my back. OK ... "reckless".
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
would help out. For my sins, I'd even go out of my way to help 
