Skiing Europe/Chris Reynard - Children's ski holiday left in ruins.

A snowHead

daveyladboy, well, between their brands they take approx 80,000 school kids per season and that dwarfs their nearest rivals. If they were rank you'd hear a lot about it. There is bound to be the odd arrangement that goes wrong and, you never know, it might be the fault of the school sometimes. I'd be comfortable booking with them.

A snowHead

Hourmont were abysmal, treated my party of 45 terribly; overbooked our accomodation and sent 10 of us to a B&B down the road.
The rep had walked off the job so we got a student who knew less about the resort than us. Flew us to Munich for a trip to Amade with one airline, and back from Salzburg with a different airline.
Complained and, fair's fair,got compensation for everyone. Haven't used them since...
I felt reassured when booking with a big company, but ultimately your business didn't really matter to them. The following year we used the ski company, Greenwich - a relatively small company, and it all went very smoothly.
I appreciate that things go wrong and although it's probably not much consolation to the children, they did at least get their money back. I think Kings of Wessex School did the right thing not accepting the alternative that was offered.
This all pales into insignificance, however, when compared to the treatment dished out by Chris Reynard and skiing europe. I originally registered with snowheads (by the way, great site - wish I was going to the EOSB - might bring my family next year...) back in Feb when somebody I know from Tonbridge was caught up at the start of this mess. They've given up on the idea of ever getting their money back - and I am genuinely appalled that more and more people are getting ripped off every week.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

My son's school in Hertfordshire was due to leave for Austria yesterday (originally booked for Interlaken but was switched because, according to Reynard, there were issues over accommodation, ie teachers would be housed in a different building from the kids, aged 9-13). He came to our school on Wednesday and admitted he could not pay for our coach travel or accommodation, despite receiving £30k from us. He cancelled, not us, but don't know if this will affect insurance repayments. He told our head he had tried to get a loan but had been turned down. Apparently his wife resigned as a director of Skiing Europe in February - no doubt so they will avoid losing their assets. SE website is still up and running so they ARE trading fraudulently in my book - has anyone contacted the fraud squad?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Kb, What a shame Sad

You'll need to Register first of course.

Bode Swiller, +1 skibound school trips (TUI) have always been very well arranged and reliable for ours.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

As an independent school, they don't have to go with LEA approved tour operators - but apparently he was on the list for Herts. However as an independent school they won't have the same recourse to C.C. lawyers, or the opportunity to rely on the council reimbursing parents, pending further proceedings. So the school may have to repay the parents and begin a long, expensive legal fight...
What's the current tally for Reynard, in £s?

After all it is free

daveyladboy, most be in the hundreds of thousands in the UK alone, given his apparent reputation of delaying payment to hotels it may well be that there are similar amounts owing overseas

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Basoid
I think this and similar comments arose because of Reynard's reputation in previous companies:
The Lyme Bay tragedy. (Source - too many to mention.)
At one of his activity centres abseiling instruction was found to be inadequate and dangerous. The instructor was found to be unqualified to teach it. DDAH never checked whether he was qualified (Source www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=8607)
10 years ago he was alleged to be risking children's lives on skiing holidays by falsely claiming to hold ski instructor qualifications. (Source www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/10year-ban-for-ski-instructor-who-risked-childrens-lives-706746.html)
With this track record, people are going ask questions...

snow reports

http://www.aito.co.uk/corporate_membersinfo.asp?cId=314&aBet=W&pNum=1
Ski Free, Skiing Europe, Westward Holidays still listed today as AiTo members found by a google search of westward holidays and the postcode.

Basoid, You will have seen other postings in the thread including a couple of mine aiming to be a bit reassuring on this issue but in truth all you or I can say for certainty is that we were fully qualified and licensed and did a good job for the kids. I never had reason to doubt that the others I worked alongside were also qualified and I know they did a good job. But all the stories about Reynard give rise to understandable fears that this might not have been true of everyone employed as an instructor. Who knows? That doesn't reflect on you or me or any other qualified instructor who has worked for SE. All that matters is that we did a professional job, gave the youngsters a great week of enjoyment and skiing development. The youngsters know that and the school staff with them know that. For me, that was everything: happpy skiers and satisfied staff. Beyond that, any issues the school had with the organisation were not my concern. On the hill in good time in the morning to take the kids over; hand a group of happy skiers back at the end of a great day; job done and done well. That's how I have happy memories of instructing for SE and a bemused disbelief in how they ever managed to put anything together - which till this year seems to have happened.

And now it is all unravelling, is there a school prepared to enquire about next year with SE in order to find out if Reynard has the audacity to try to continue trading?

You know it makes sense.

ccl, Lots of people I know worked for Ski Europe in the 80s. I very nearly did after I'd given up full seasons but didn't because I was able to get work in proper ski schools. What horrified me was SE's willingness to employ totally under-qualified or unqualified "instructors" for the busy periods like half term (including some of those I know). There were ASSI qualified guys straight off the dry slope that had barely set foot on a mountain being let loose with a dozen school kids in places like Chamonix... I sh*t you not. Even back then, in the days pre-CRB checks and all the H&S stuff, SE were seen as being well dodgy. Back then it was rumoured that the brown paper envelope culture was alive and well with some organisers allegedly enjoying plenty of "inspection trips" and "incentives" - hence why parents were being ripped off for coach holidays to satellite hostels in satellite resorts with unpaid instructors and three to a bed. I suspect that that culture isn't entirely dead. How schools and LEAs have been suckered in by this guy for so long is beyond me. A few Google searches and you find what you need. What happened to buyer beware?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Interesting insightBode Swiller. Ski Europe was a predecessor of Skiing Europe was it not? With the same guy at the helm?

As I said it is impossible to know more than your own situation and a bit of what you see around you but I must say I don't remember in all the chats over a beer with other instructors and school staff about Skiing Europe, unqualified instructors being mentioned as an issue. But as I said, who knows? It is certainly no longer the main concern!

A snowHead

Thanks for confirming what we suspected. That it only takes one just-qualified newbie to take a school group on a piste they have never seen before to invite trouble. I notice the safety protocol on SE site was removed recently.

Undoubtably many instructors are suitably experienced and knowledgable - the TES forum shows another instructor who joined the bus at/near the ferry and had not seen the slopes before. [he has not been paid for services himself] No planning, no experience of the particular slopes. Is that defensible with today's standards on the most basic level Question

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I would guess that the instructors abilities play an important part when going to an area they've not skied before, a good instructor will have no problems on piste in most locations, however an inexperienced instructor might, far more likely is that an instructor unfamiliar with a resort might miss a turn off for a lift Especially if the conditions are poor.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I am entirely in sympathy with you noskitrip on matters to do with allegations of Skiing Europe's organisational failures, financial misdealings etc, but really you are trying to make something out of the instruction side that you have offered no evidence of and now are making comments about instructors without foundation.

There are hints and suspicions that Skiing Europe has been employing unqualified instructors, hints and suspicions which understandably derive from Reynard's past history. There has been no evidence however. "Back then" in the 80s with Ski Europe is part of Reynard's background and adds no doubt to the suspicions, but it does not tell us anything definite about Skiing Europe. As I said before, I am not defending SKiing Europe in any way, but I do like to make judgements on established facts, not unsubstantiated assertions. Now will anyone stand up and say he/she was employed as an instructor by SE and was unqualified? Or that he/she knew without doubt of an unqualified instructor? That would be evidence.

All of that is a bit fussy and academic on my part, I know, but when it comes to this sort of statement, it is another matter:

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Thanks Colin B, I had read that posting which mostly is saying the same as I was about the professionalism of the instructors, but overlooked the reference to SE employing BASI 1 instructors which is, as bumpy wrote, quite wrong both on the employer's side and on the individual's. So there is evidence after all! That starts to satisfy my fussiness. I wonder how long ago that was and whether it is still a current situation. BASI 1 is not an on-snow qualification: it would have been better to employ Ski Leaders (as does, or at least did Aston's) since they have an on-snow qualification to lead on-piste in a mountain environment.

After all it is free

Ski instructors and reps are just as unfortunate as schools in this situations as they haven't received payment for work that they have done. Newly qualified or qualified for a long time is irrelevant, they should be paid for the work that they have carried out.

Looks like anyone involved with SE has been 'done over' apart from the lovely Chris Reynard!!!!

I have a very simple business mind, or possibly no business mind at all so this is all a bit simplistic and I rely on others more astute than I to keep me right.

Normally, money comes in from clients in advance of their ski trip so you have enough to pay for all the costs of providing each trip plus enough to make your profit. These disappointed clients have paid their money, but it seems the suppliers have not been paid so the clients' money should still be intact. But if that money does not exist, where has it gone? To fill the hole made by several years of loss-making trading because the amounts charged to clients have not in fact been enough to cover everything? Well of course that can happen, but this is the kind of business where you can predict your costs and set your prices. Unfortunately if SE is not a registered company, I presume we can't see its accounts. I dare say HM Customs & Revenue have some powers though wink

Was the business plan all along to draw down excessively from the business each season so that a point would come when all your income has to go to paying off last year's debts, when you can't get any more credit because your suppliers are pissed off with you and the business folds - with your "pension" secured?

So if the business has not simply been run with such financial ineptitude that it is about to collapse, there is presumably a stash of cash somewhere. Your choice, folks, ineptitude or cunning plan?

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

ccl, Right enough but even legit and well(ish) run businesses can get into cashflow problems - often when expanding when the period between costs (creditors needing paying) and income (debtors paying up) means the latter doesn't quite cover the increasing amount of the former. Obviously debtors going bust or failing to pay can also hit them hard through no fault of their own.

In the case of the TO industry simplistically there shouldn't be really much excuse - debtors pay upfront and creditors paid significantly later but so many TOs do fail. I'd guess its because they become so obsessed with looking at cashflow that they forget thay have to earn a profit or in other cases , perhaps as you suggest, they look at short term cash surpluses as an excuse to take a dividend or pay a bonus. I'd be interested to see how Mr Reynard's accounts stack up but if he's operating as a sole trader I don't expect we'll get that opportunity.

snow reports

WOW - i have not read all this thread, so forgive me if i cover some thing already done. Firstly im a teacher and we have used skiing europe quite a few times without any real hassle. 2 years in switzerland were brilliant, great reps and all but one of the instructors were fantastic. We skied in a great resort (jungfrau) and a lovely hotel. Last year however we caught up in the sea france strikes - Fitzwilliams - and were basically left in the breeze, there was no one from the company to help and me and my colleague, along with everyone else were phoning ferry companies to get a ferry 'from england to Europe' thats how desperate we were. No joy. the company refused to pay for a booking that i secured (3 phones on the go at once) so we lost that. ended up putting the cost on the credit card to claim back later. we lost a day but had a great trip (in the end).

Needless to say i was really pissed off, and played the game to get my money back which we did. Shortly after that we got an anonymous letter tipping our school (and every school in the area) off about the lyme bay incident that he was involved with. This was something that the LA had not picked up on. I did not book with them this year - THANK GOD!!! We are off next week and only found out about this by chatting to the account manager at our new company and he mentioned it. My google has made me VERY glad that i made the change!

There were a few things that i wanted to clarify. For those who think that this is a 'free holiday' - you clearly have not taken 40+ of other peoples children anywhere, let alone skiing where you are responsible for them 24-7. Its NOT a holiday i can tell you! its a nightmare and each year i think - im not doing another one!

Secondly, someone early on commented that its the teachers fault for booking with them and that 'a quick google' would tell you all you need to know. Well it may do NOW, but certainly didn't before. I did a lot of research on different companies AND resorts when planning my trips, and nothing came up. Also, there will always be bad reports from people, you have to take them into context. few people praise a great company. The LA is there to do that for you - i have a demanding job and i just dont have time. I book, its gets approved by senior leadership, then it goes to the LA to confirm. All these things are there to provide checks, if nothing has come up, then you can only assume that all is good.

Anyway, fingers crossed that we will have a successful trip with our new company - and my sympathies to those who are suffering with SE troubles. Remember its the kids and staff who have put in (i promise) 100's of hours into making the trips.

The tally to date appears to be:
February Half Term
Reading Grammar School - 100 children - £90,000 (www.getreading.co.uk)
Tavistock College - 120 children - £90,000 (BBC News)
Tonbridge Grammar School - 33 children - c£27,000? (www.thisiskent.co.uk)
Easter Hols
Meole Brace School - 38 children - £41,000 (www.shropshirestar.com)
Mount Grace School - c120 children? - c£90,000? (this thread)
Beechwood Park School - c38 children? - c£35,000? (this thread)
Then factor in unpaid staff, coach companies, lift passes, ski hire & hotels from the trips that did get away.
Nice.
I'd be on my toes to, say, Morocco. No extradition, could live like a king, maybe squeeze in some skiing in it's nascent high-atlas resorts. Lie low, then start a company called skiingnorthafrica.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Elizabeth B

Skiing Europe has not got into problems on this scale because of the exchange rate movements - there is a large margin on the pricing of the holidays over costs, exchange rates have not moved that much over the past year since when the deposits were taken and if Reynard had paid in advance when he received the deposits then he would have not been exposed to the exchange risk at all. As Togger has pointed out above and various instructors have pointed out Reynard has had problems paying his bills for a very long time. What he doesn't seem to have had a problem in doing is in funding an affluent lifestyle for him self - lots of property and his own private golf course for starters. What it looks like he has been doing is using his business as a sort of Ponzi scheme whereby deposits for next years holidays are used to pay for the current years holidays and his own personal drawings.

As for the point about the quality of SE's instructors, I am sure that many are honourable and decent people who have done their jobs very well - but the sad truth is that when businesses start to fail and are run by the unscrupulous is that quality and safety usually go out of the window - and I for one would not want to rely on assurances from someone who in the past has traded while insolvent and was the owner of one of the few businesses that has actually been convicted for corporate manslaughter.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Any basic background check on Reynard would have found that he was disaqualified as a director for 10 years in 2001 due to trading while insolvent - subsequently reduced to 5 years on appeal. Any serch on Google would have found the Independent and TES news articles related to the disqualification (read what the judge said about Reynard) and Lyme Bay and the comments in Hansard about the latter. If you looked a little bit harder (of for at least 5 minutes) you would have found that certain Local Authorities (e.g. Kirklees) had noted concerns - i.e please contact me if you are thinking about booking with this company. I very much doubt that any parent presented with such evidence would have booked a holiday with SE - some very serrious questions need tobe asked about the basic due diligence processes Local Authorities employ in approving suppliers - if they aee so lax for childrens' holidays one wonders what they do elsewhere.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

If I were a school governor that relied on local authorities lists of approved suppliers I would be asking some very hard questions about the due diligence processes being applied by the Local Authority. I shall also be asking the same questions of my local councillor - but since he was responsible for placing over half the authorities liquid assets in Icelandic banks I am not expecting much in the way of a sensible reply.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I just rang Skiing Europe to see if anyone would answer... I got a chirpy "Gooooood afternoon, Skiing Europe?" from a woman. They are obviously still in business, which I find utterly disgusting.

Their number: 01404 871500

You'll need to Register first of course.

They are also still actively 'spamming' school e mails in an attempt to drum up business. I received an e mail last week from them asking me to consider them for our 2012 trip.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I agree with the comments bout the LA checking, we do rely on them for this service, and its one that schools pay for as part of the package of servces LA's offer and its top sliced from all our budgets. That being said, i would imagine that searchs would have been for skiing europe, rather than chris himself. That being said we did get some requests from the LA regarding bonding etc, but we were never told why. It was only much later after the letter when i did some digging myself that i discovered all this information, and suspect that is why the LA wanted more info (all of which was provided). As im preparing for my last bits for this years trip i am so greatful that i do not have this worry hanging over me. Its such a mare organising these as it is, let alone with the worry that many schools must now be facing. looks like i jumped ship at the right time. Its funny, i was recalling to my right hand lady who helps me with the trip about all this, and i said to her at the time that if he treated all the schools going out during the strike the way we were that he would be insolvent - my how profetic i was!!

After all it is free

Togger

Given that SE did not file accounts with Companies House on the basis that it was dormant - this should have been a pretty clear indication to anyone competent doing the due diligence that Reynard was the contracting party - even if he didn't make this clear in the contracts (which would be a breach of the Business Names Act if he didn't) - so really not much excuse at all for the LA I'm afraid. For anyone with experience in this area the digging - Companies House, Dun & Bradstreet and Google would have only taken 20-30 minutes - and revealed more than enough to ask more detailed questions. My real worry is that some local authorities may actually rely on the counterparty to provide the necessary information rather than doing some independent checking.

Done properly this is a service that could easily be provided in a competent manner on a combined basis for many local authorities.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

that is interesting to know. they did rely on us and the company to give them the relevant information. from what your saying i think i might to do some checking myself in future!!

Help!!

Skiing Europe/Chris Reynard - Children's ski holiday left in ruins.

snowHeads Forum Index >>> The Piste