 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jobs and Woz are worried about people promoting helmet usage. Wow!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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PJSki, over a bridge and far away..!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| achilles wrote: |
| Ray Zorro, in which case there is no evidence to base a helmet recommendation on this case. |
I disagree.
The lad was concussed.
The level of head impact that causes concussion but without much more is the level at which helmets are most effective in eliminating that damage.
If he had been worse hurt, then we wouldn't have known whether a helmet would have helped, but at that level of hurt we can be almost certain it would have.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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7 out of 16 of our group are wearing helmets this year for what its worth
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alex_heney, can you give your source for the concussion reduction performance of helmets please?
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PJSki, Let me help out. 
You ain't going to get the perfect trial unless you get a matched population of skiers to throw their heads against trees with/without lids under matched conditions... or perhaps use dead bodies/crash test dummies to assess forces on the brain (but harder to replicate a ski accident than a car crash - and less financial incentive to do so?)
Look at this site which examines helmet evidence particularly from the different perspective of (relatively treeless) Scottish Skiing. The argument seems to be that death from head injury may not be reduced, but severity of injury is.
I will not cut an paste the text as the webpage expressly forbids it, but suggest you look as it clearly shows the evidence for prevention of death (which is pretty rare in anycase) is not there yet, but there is very good recent data from various countries on concussion and head injury severity reduction. His conclusion seems quite sensible too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stoatsbrother, A very informative link.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Never wore a helmet in 20 years as opening bat in club cricket. Only time hit in head was when diving to stop a firmly struck shot that bobbled, at midwicket. You don't see many helmet wearers there.
Wore another protective device religiously though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Oddly, I can contrast that with the revelation that I was once once hit hard on the head by a cricket ball ... and I was just walking along the boundary as a spectator!
I guess I wasn't spectating closely enough.
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Hmm. I am accused by a moderator of being a troll, and offer to stay out of the discussion. In response, I get posts like AxsMan 's referring to my post - but he is not a troll.
I have seen stoatsbrother's link before. In sum:
1. Children's heads are far more vunerable than adults and need a helmet (I have long thought that).
2. For the rest, the risk of head injury is very low.
3. Of this very low group of injuries, there is a sub group where a helmet may do some good. Helmets will not save you serious injury. So it would appear the good doctor (who wrote stoatsborther's link) would not offer himself for AxsMan's test.
4. Helmets will save you from quite a few of the head injuries that do occur, but these are minor cuts an lacerations.
5. The benefit in saving from some concussion is unclear. There is reference to concussion - but I have not spotted anything that shows what percentage of concussion injuries would have been saved by a helmet. Must admit I have skim read - happy to be corrected on that. In Scotland, it looks like no concussion injuries (or at least no major ones) would have been saved, since the doctor notes that there were no serious neurological complications as a result of injuries.
So if you think that a helmet is going to save you from significant injuries, Stoatsbrothr's link suggests you are wrong. The probability of it saving you from any mishap is a percentage of 'very low'. Accordingly, I cannot understand why I have been subject to the abuse I have had in this thread.
Turning to alex-heney's suggestion that anyone who had sustained concussion would have been spared that had he been wearing a helmet, the Scott McCartney incident refutes that.
Helmets are worthwhile for children. For the rest, it is up to each of us to make a personal decision whether it is worth wearing one against a small chances of it saving us from minor injury. They won't do you any harm, they may just do you some good.
Can we now all live together in harmony?
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You know it makes sense.
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I have finally found a helmet that fits properly. I kind of like it, but I find myself bumping my head a lot more than i do when I don't wear one. What to do? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Achilles the reason I accused you of trolling for attention was down to the fact that you appear to have forgotten the initial details behind this thread and have been repeating your arguments since the thread resurfaced.
When the thread began, you said…
| achilles wrote: |
| I am mildly disconcerted about causes which have evangelistic zeal - which seems to be what the advocates of helmets have in sH. |
Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:10 am
| achilles wrote: |
| ... every doctor I have skied with recently does where a helmet, which I find rather more persuasive. |
Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:09 am
Once the thread came back to life you said this…
| achilles wrote: |
| I wondered if helmet-wearers have a gospel choir. They all seem to be Born Again, have had Damascus moments, a need to reinforce each other that they have The Chosen Way and a zeal to reform us sceptics. |
Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:56 am
| achilles wrote: |
| … the Sh medis I have skied with all wear them… |
Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:02 pm
I guess that it was not really trolling for attention, but possibly senility kicking in
Please accept my apologies.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ray Zorro, actually, I was quite shocked at being called a troll by you - not only a mod, but someone I have skied with. However what I said came across, I certainly did not knowingly have trollish intent. I will always plead guilty to senility these days. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Helmets are worthwhile for children. For the rest, it is up to each of us to make a personal decision whether it is worth wearing one against a small chances of it saving us from minor injury. They won't do you any harm, they may just do you some good.
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Well, hurrah. Can we all lay off the pious 'ooh you're so irresponsible for not wearing full body armour and setting an example to my children' b0llocks now please.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, I think that is a significant misinterpretation of what it says. The more recent studies do show a significant decrease in head injuries. The lacerations issue relates to his own experience in Scotland. He classes Minor Injuries as including concussion btw. The risk of a head injury requiring medical attention appears to be 0.3-0.5 per 1000 skier days in average risk skiing and 2.4 per 1000 in higher risk situations. Those are not small numbers. If 10000 snowheads (including sockpuppets) skied 12 days a year, you are talking about 36-60 head injuries in that year in the low risk scenario, with perhaps half of those not needing medical intervention if they wore a lid.
I do respect your right not to wear a lid. btw.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stoatsbrother, thanks for the clarification - which seems very reasonable to me. So on you figures up to 30 snowheads would be saved from some medical intervention (I am not sneering at that - seeing stars or having blood pouring down your face is not pleasant) but helmets would not save you from serious injury or worse. I appreciate that is an estimate - but it looks credible, and seems a fair basis on which to make a decision. Peace.
AxsMan Peace. Ommmmmmmmm.
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achilles, no - wouldn't save you from death or worse! Serious injury is included in the reduction.
Lizzard, could anyone make you do something you didn't want to do?
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stoatsbrother, There is an argument to say that no-one can ever make anyone do something they don't want to. It's just that some means of persuasion (large calibre weapons, significant voltages etc) can be quite effective at altering ones priorities.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| laundryman wrote: |
Never wore a helmet in 20 years as opening bat in club cricket. Only time hit in head was when diving to stop a firmly struck shot that bobbled, at midwicket. You don't see many helmet wearers there.
Wore another protective device religiously though. |
Ironically, the only time I've been hit in the head was the one time I've worn a helmet in the last ten years. It was one of the quicker open bowlers around and a dodgy pitch. Next batsmen had to come and stand in pool of bolld and he was never the bravest against the quicks. I'm told he didn't last long.
Getting back on topic I've bought a ski helmet (giro G10). One because I'm clumsy and do fall but because last year I was literally knocked off a piste from behind by a snowboarder. Fortunately I only fell down about 3 feet into soft snow-it could have been a rock, tree etc. My other half reminded me of responsibilities to 3 kids etc. Don't know yet whether I will wear it. suspect I will get used to it. Will be the first in our group apart from kids to wear one
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| achilles, no - wouldn't save you from death or worse! Serious injury is included in the reduction........ |
Missed that - and it seems to conflict with the conclusion - can you point me the bit that covers serious injury reduction? Be patient with an old man.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Oh no, sad news. I wish you're son is ok! It must be horrible to hear such news.
I agree, helmet is a must nowadays. My kids wear it automatically as they have not lived the times when we used to ski without a helmet (before 2000). I started using a helmet in 1998 when I used to ski backcountries pretty actively. In the end of my first day with a helmet I jumped few meters jump and did some cross tricks. The jump was icy and I lost my control. I fell on my back and hit my head on icy ground. I lost my conscious for few seconds, woke up between the trees and wondered what the heck happened. I am glad I had just purchased the helmet.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| PJSki wrote: |
Think of helmets as being nothing more than bump protection. They will protect you from the chairlift bar coming down prematurely, someone swinging their shouldered skis in your direction and other such low impact accidents. They will also protect you from laceration. They won't do much if you come to a sudden stop, headfirst, from speed, via an immovable object.
I'm always amazed by the amount of confidence helmets seem to impart to people. It's been my observation over the years that the lower the skill level, the great the confidence gain. In my opinion, this is a bad thing. |
Protection from lacerations is a good enough reason alone to wear a helmet. Ever seen what sharp ski/board edges can do when they hit someone on the head? I agree a lightweight helmet won't help much if you headbut a tree head-on at speed. But thankfully most crashes are not like that. They usually involve collisions between other skiers (where a helmet is really effective) or hitting the snow/ice (where helmets are also very good).
The confidence argument always crops up at some point in these discussions. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that people wearing helmets are inherently more reckless. I've skied without a helmet for many years and now wear one all the time, but my level of risk taking hasn't changed in the slightest. But they can give a nervous beginner a little more confidence, which can only be a positive thing. You could use this weak argument to suggest that you shouldn't wear a seatbelt in your car or a motorcycle helmet, because they might make you more reckless?
I think people can make up their own minds on this debate. I only object to non helmet wearers who actively discourage others from choosing to wear one. But fortunately they are a very small minority.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 21-01-08 12:15; edited 1 time in total
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achilles, I believe it is all head injuries having medical attention (excluding death).
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You know it makes sense.
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| achilles wrote: |
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| achilles, no - wouldn't save you from death or worse! Serious injury is included in the reduction........ |
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Maybe this is not relevant to skiing, and I do apologize if the following is going off track...
I thought I'd mention that helmets are NOT always best. Cycling helmets have been advisable but NOT compulsory for cyclists. My daughter cycled without a helmet, and she was killed by a lorry which knocked her down. It was instant--due to her head injury. However, she could NOT have survived her internal body injuries--if she had been wearing her helmet...(the anniversary is coming up next month--the 15th year---)... So when there is talk of helmets, I can say that in some cases maybe it is best not to have worn one...
I am going to wear my helmet for skiing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Julieanne, I can hardly express how sorry I am to hear that. Nonetheless I think the arguments pro helmet are overwhelming. No doubt there are extraordinary circumstances where one might be better off without a helmet, but I think that both for skiing and biking helmets have been shown to reduce the number of fatalities and serious head injuries. I think there's little scope for argument to be honest!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I bought a cheap helmet last year for my trip to the Zillertal, and wore it on the first day finding out it was far too small and hurt my head.
The next day i gave it to my 12 year old cousin to wear for the rest of the holiday. That evening i came back to our apartment and my cousin came up to me and started apologising because he had broken my helmet. I asked him what happened, and he said he had been skiing a little track through the forest in his ski school where he hit a little jump, messed up the landing and smacked the back of his head on a tree root.
Cousin was fine, helmet was cracked at the back. Doesnt take a genius to work out the possible ramifications had he not been wearing the helmet...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Steilhang wrote: |
| Julieanne, I can hardly express how sorry I am to hear that. Nonetheless I think the arguments pro helmet are overwhelming. |
Thank you, and I completely agree with the pro helmet approach.
I would not ski without a helmet now, that's why I've recently bought one, and after trying on a few in the shop, came out with a very comfortably fitting one. It has vents, and so surely could not become too hot! I can hardly wait to wear it, when I go skiing in March.
About cycling, with or without helmets, of course that is another issue---I only mentioned it--I suppose--- as it is in my mind--and near the anniversary. In my daughter's case, the issue is and was mostly about lack of adequate side mirrors on large lorries, which cause a blind spot for the driver. I campaigned for 7 years with the DoT for legislation to remedy this, to prevent further fatalities of this type.
But this is outside the subject of this thread. I apologize!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Markus,  wow! That was very lucky for your cousin! Great example of the benefits of helmet wearing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Well I am taking my £8 Lidl Ski helmet with me next week. Have never worn a helmet before so will be interested to see how I cope. I get quite hot while skiing so will be interested to see if the vent works to any effect.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've never skied without a helmet - so it would feel weird for me not to.
I started at XScape MK, and they are compulsory for their lessons (beginners anyway) so no choice. OH wears one after he got mild concussion on a ski holiday - he doesn't want to lose any more time skiing, which also managed to convince me.
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| riverman wrote: |
| Well I am taking my £8 Lidl Ski helmet with me next week. Have never worn a helmet before so will be interested to see how I cope. I get quite hot while skiing so will be interested to see if the vent works to any effect. |
Obviously that's a very cheap helmet, but I assume it at least passes the relevant minimum safety standards?
I wonder how it would compare (from a protection point of view) with a more expensive top branded helmet? Perhaps another sideline discussion!
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I just watched again Jerry Seinfeld's show last night.
He said something like "The proof of human stupidity is the concept of helmets. Think about it. As a species, we engaged in certain activities which were cracking our heads. When we realised this, instead of ceasing these activities, we invented a device which would allow us to continue these activities, with a lower risk of cracking our heads.
As for the brain that is thinking so poorly that it does not even want to avoid the cracking of the head that it's in..."
(He was also commenting on "what's the use of a helmet in skydiving? At those speeds, the helmet is using YOU for protection: "I was lucky to have that human strapped underneath me! Never jump from a plane without a human attached to you"...")
(Please don't call me a a troll. I happen to wear a helmet when skiing but then I never wore one when cycling (well I haven't cycled since getting my ski helmet, but still). I don't pretend that this is rational).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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horizon, using Seinfeld's arguement, condom's are also proof of human stupidity 
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uktrailmonster, My Lidl ski helmet meets all current European standards. It is cheap because it comes from Lidl and is not a premier make and I dont think the vent system may be as good as more exspensive helmets
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FAQ
's and one 7 year old girl with a cricket bat. 10 wear helmets 10 do not. Cricket bat is applied by 7 year old sequentially to each cranium. Damage is assessed, level of conciousness recorded, willingness to repeat noted, IQ before and after compared.
