 Poster: A snowHead
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| flangesax wrote: |
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Over 1200 adults completed this survey; they were predominantly skiers (c. 80%) of whom 9% also boarded; almost three-quarters were male. The majority were at advanced or expert levels and were positively disposed to helmet use.
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Out of all of this....
" The majority were at advanced or expert levels"
That bit worries me... how many other sports would a majority of 1200 people think they were advanced or expert? |
Probably just a simple indication that most novice skiers are very unlikely to be aware of or spend the 20 mins or whatever it took to complete a detailed survey about ski helmets.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| flangesax wrote: |
I still can't believe you lot have skipped over the significant finding that a majority of people think they are advanced or expert in winter sports.
What other sport (especially one invloving high speeds) can you think of where a majority of people who take part claim to be this skilled?
I can drive, have done it for years; I must now be advanced or an expert in the 'sport' of driving.
This is surely the most intriguing bit of data this survey has gathered. |
All things are relative. In my other sport favourite sport I'd say anyone able to participate could classify themselves as advanced/expert compared to the majority of the population. Simply because of the commitment needed to get to the basic level needed to take part. I'd say skiing is similar although a little more popular.
The sport? Well I get bored of people sniggering so let's just say there's a poster of one of the more talented participants at the bottom right of the Hemel slope - his name's Dan Heaton but Kris Holm is probably better known.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Offroad unicycling - some of the Holm clips are fairly mental.
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fatbob, I went downhill go-karting during the summer with a group of family and friends; we thought we were all on acid when the off-road-uphill-unicyclist past us...
Gadge,
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In my other sport favourite sport I'd say anyone able to participate could classify themselves as advanced/expert compared to the majority of the population. Simply because of the commitment needed to get to the basic level needed to take part. I'd say skiing is similar although a little more popular.
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I think this is exactly my point.
There is no way that someone who is at the ability to be able to take part should self-classify themselves as advanced or expert; it is nonsense and just shows the blinkered vision that wintersports seem to attract.
I guess it comes down to that holiday/sport/recreation/hobby thing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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flangesax, either that or
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
Probably just a simple indication that most novice skiers are very unlikely to be aware of or spend the 20 mins or whatever it took to complete a detailed survey about ski helmets. |
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bobmcstuff, it just doesn't wash with me (maybe I should use soap).
I have been in Bode-Swiller's Centre of the Universe for 5 seasons, got around 200+ ski days within this time. There is no way that I would class myself as expert although I do consider myself 'advanced' (which causes a problem as I think they were grouped in the survey anyway). But I have seen and skied with people who really are in this category; and you really are talking about the difference betwen Michael Schumacher and that woman from driving school years ago...
In the time out here I have also had 'i'm a qualified ski instructor' s , 'I must have a race GS ski' s, 'I always ski off piste' s and 'my son's in a race team' s, 'I can't improve on piste anymore so only want to ski off-piste' s and the good old fashioned 'I can carve' s..... needless to say the jury is quite often out!
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uktrailmonster wrote:
Probably just a simple indication that most novice skiers are very unlikely to be aware of or spend the 20 mins or whatever it took to complete a detailed survey about ski helmets. |
Quite a jump from Novice to advanced or expert isn't it?...
IMO it is also slightly supporting that no-one seems to agree.
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FWIW having looked at the definitions they used in the survey for the categories I'd have to put myself in "Advanced" even though I'm definitely intermediate. So I guess it also could be partly a byproduct of how they broke up the abilities.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| slider_tom, thanks for reporting back. Sorry but I'm afraid I'm of the opinion that the results reflect conclusions that could have been arrived at in an apres-ski bar over a pint. |
You may have a point, however I would state that: Conclusions reached over a pint in the bar constitutes conjecture not research.
There are plenty of examples which show that that what we (as humans) have a rather wonky psychological behaviour e.g. Dan Ariely 2009 Predictably irrational, Harper Collins,
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228390.400-nobel-psychologist-reveals-the-error-of-our-ways.html
and many other examples.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stoat of the dead wrote: |
slider_tom, unstated sampling method. No mention of method and response rate. And we saw how it worked.
Therefore total fail and waste of time and effort.  Call us when you have a representational survey with a known response rate.
Do people get any academic credit for this? |
yes they do.
Despite the fact that the sample was skewed towards the advanced/expert level, it was large enough for there to be sufficient numbers of participants of each category for a valid analysis. An analysis of the influence of ability on intention found that ability was not statistically significant. Thus, the fact that the sample is not representative of the spread of abilities in the population does not invalidate the results.
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| flangesax wrote: |
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Over 1200 adults completed this survey; they were predominantly skiers (c. 80%) of whom 9% also boarded; almost three-quarters were male. The majority were at advanced or expert levels and were positively disposed to helmet use.
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Out of all of this....
" The majority were at advanced or expert levels"
That bit worries me... how many other sports would a majority of 1200 people think they were advanced or expert? |
Sampling method: convenience sampling conducted in accordance with the guidance provided by Kraut, R., Olson, J., Banaji, M., Bruckman, A., Cohen, J., & Couper, M. (2004). Psychological research online: Report of Board of Scientific Affairs' Advisory Group on the Conduct of Research on the Internet. American Psychologist, 59(2), 105-117;
Method was given, see methodology of the Theory of Planned Behaviour – anyone with queries about the methodology is invited to look at articles on the Theory of Planned Behaviour through the Internet in the first instance;
Response rate not possible to ascertain – drop-off rate was only 10% among those who began the relevant survey section, total drop-off rate was 15% among those qualifying for inclusion and provide a better measure of the quality of the study.
No claims have been made as to the study being representative, but each factor has been tested for influence on intention and found to have little significance. Note, this is a psychological study, not a market survey. To some extent, ALL sampling surveys are skewed by the fact that you only get those who are interested in the subject to complete the survey and those who are not do not.
The full work is covered by University copyright. For those who are interested, the hard copy will be available in the University of Surrey library in due course.
The academic merits of this work has been assessed by the appropriately qualified professionals who are knowledgeable about the field and the relevant theories and also have access to the full work.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| slider_tom wrote: |
| The full work is covered by University copyright. For those who are interested, the hard copy will be available in the University of Surrey library in due course. |
Well, fine, but I don't think they'll need to bring in extra police to marshall the traffic. Why not just publish it here as well? They still own the copyright and at least it'll get read. Sat in the library it'll just gather dust and go past its sell-by date.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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slider_tom, you may have missed my point here mate and got a bit over defensive of the misses' survey....
I am interested and intrigued by the way that the results suggest that the majority of your subjects perceive themselves as advanced and expert... but as bobmcstuff, has just written maybe the catagoriesd themselves aren't really 'advanced or expert' - can't be bothered to look at the moment... Also as this is an attitudes and beliefs based survey maybe it is representational of their perception of their own ability....
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fatbob, flangesax,
Impressed how quickly that was sussed - any googling involved
Agree though - I'd never class myself as an advanced mountain unicyclist - but it is a very small and elite group.
Thanks for not sniggering - clearly a better class of person on here than I usually meet when riding!
Gary
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You know it makes sense.
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| flangesax wrote: |
slider_tom, you may have missed my point here mate and got a bit over defensive of the misses' survey....
I am interested and intrigued by the way that the results suggest that the majority of your subjects perceive themselves as advanced and expert... but as bobmcstuff, has just written maybe the catagoriesd themselves aren't really 'advanced or expert' - can't be bothered to look at the moment... Also as this is an attitudes and beliefs based survey maybe it is representational of their perception of their own ability.... |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Gadge, No googling involved. Seen some of Holm's stuff around Squamish & the North Shore.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Now theres a thesis - "The Dunning Kruger effect in snowsport communities"
Survey followed by putting a sample set through a series of baseline performance tests, then cross analysis of perceptions of personal performance against that of others... I feel a Science coming on!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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51% is "the majority". What was the proportion?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowball wrote: |
| 51% is "the majority". What was the proportion? |
The breakdown of self-report abilities is thus:
Skiers: 46.5% expert, 40.5% advanced, 13.0% beginners/intermediates
Snowboarders: 30.2% expert, 42.8% advanced, 27.0% beginners/intermediates
Scales used were the same as those used in other studies to enable comparisons to be made. Self perception is biased, but time did not allow for a deeper analysis of abilities to be made. This may be another study in the future.
Bias due in part to recruitment channels (e.g. sport governing bodies and regional sports associations) which reached out to many industry professionals, and the time of year for recruitment when many recreational skiers may not be looking at Internet sites. Not to mention the fact that some people have so much time on their hands and have the motivation to complete such a survey against those who don't.
Bias exists in all surveys, but the methodology of the Theory of Planned Behaviour tests the influence of all factors and has been found to be robust through numerous studies in a wide variety of fields over a period of over 30 years. The results from this study are consistent with those to be expected across fields and should be interpreted against the wider background of studies.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
Now theres a thesis - "The Dunning Kruger effect in snowsport communities"
Survey followed by putting a sample set through a series of baseline performance tests, then cross analysis of perceptions of personal performance against that of others... I feel a Science coming on! |
As far as I am aware the Dunning-Kruger effect refers to COGNITIVE abilities not PROCEDURAL abilities.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| slider_tom wrote: |
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
Now theres a thesis - "The Dunning Kruger effect in snowsport communities"
Survey followed by putting a sample set through a series of baseline performance tests, then cross analysis of perceptions of personal performance against that of others... I feel a Science coming on! |
As far as I am aware the Dunning-Kruger effect refers to COGNITIVE abilities not PROCEDURAL abilities. |
Why would you expect a personal assessment of their procedural ability to be any less effected than their cognitive ability?
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Surely rating one's skiing ability _is_ a cognitive activity? God knows, the Dunning-Kruger effect applies to driving 
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I think slider_tom's stats up there supoort this even further.
It is still absolutely bonkers that 46% of skiers judge themselves as expert; even if the source is subject to bias. IMO Scary stuff which results in accidents.
I like this idea of the Dunning Krugery thang... do it.. cos I am WAY too stupid!
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| meh wrote: |
| slider_tom wrote: |
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
Now theres a thesis - "The Dunning Kruger effect in snowsport communities"
Survey followed by putting a sample set through a series of baseline performance tests, then cross analysis of perceptions of personal performance against that of others... I feel a Science coming on! |
As far as I am aware the Dunning-Kruger effect refers to COGNITIVE abilities not PROCEDURAL abilities. |
Why would you expect a personal assessment of their procedural ability to be any less effected than their cognitive ability? |
Well, as far as psychological studies are concerned, procedural memory operates differently from cognitive memory and to assume that our assessment of both is the same may be in error. It would be far more likely that feedback on procedural performance differs from cognitive performance. Cognitive assessments are intermittent when formal testing is performed. Procedural assessment is a continual process. Cognitive feedback is in the form of test results, which may be delayed; procedural feedback is pretty much immediate (usually less than a second) – unless of course you have no feelings. The phenomenon of overconfidence in one's cognitive abilities was discussed way back in the 1970s when Kahnemann and Tversky proposed their theory. Their work has been seminal in the field of judgement. Sulheim et al 2006 produced some research to indicate how accurate self-assessment of skiing ability was and while it was not accurate, their was no report of inaccuracies being consistent with the idea of overconfidence in abilities.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| slider_tom wrote: |
| meh wrote: |
| slider_tom wrote: |
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
Now theres a thesis - "The Dunning Kruger effect in snowsport communities"
Survey followed by putting a sample set through a series of baseline performance tests, then cross analysis of perceptions of personal performance against that of others... I feel a Science coming on! |
As far as I am aware the Dunning-Kruger effect refers to COGNITIVE abilities not PROCEDURAL abilities. |
Why would you expect a personal assessment of their procedural ability to be any less effected than their cognitive ability? |
Well, as far as psychological studies are concerned, procedural memory operates differently from cognitive memory and to assume that our assessment of both is the same may be in error. It would be far more likely that feedback on procedural performance differs from cognitive performance. Cognitive assessments are intermittent when formal testing is performed. Procedural assessment is a continual process. Cognitive feedback is in the form of test results, which may be delayed; procedural feedback is pretty much immediate (usually less than a second) – unless of course you have no feelings. The phenomenon of overconfidence in one's cognitive abilities was discussed way back in the 1970s when Kahnemann and Tversky proposed their theory. Their work has been seminal in the field of judgement. Sulheim et al 2006 produced some research to indicate how accurate self-assessment of skiing ability was and while it was not accurate, their was no report of inaccuracies being consistent with the idea of overconfidence in abilities. |
Interesting because the original Dunning Kruger study highlights other studies on tennis and driving where this does happen. I'd look up the references but I'm lazy. 
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Basically:
Expert skiers don't feel the need to wear a helmet because they can avoid minor crashes. When they do crash it tends to be big and in most cases helmets won't help.
Beginners feel the need to wear helmets because they have no skill and fall a lot.
The in-between guys who ski mostly piste runs are mostly divided; some wear helmets to give them the added confidence of protection, some don't.
We've achieved so much in 8 pages of posts!
And what's wrong with inspiring confidence? Inspiring confidence to do something to push one out of their comfort zone is a way we progress, if confidence is inspired through use of a helmet, so be it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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when i returned to skiing in 2008 and took daughter she had to wear a helmet as it was law, i did not bother
2nd trip in 2010 due to moaning of non skiing wife and daughter saying how comfy and warm they were
i too hired and wore a helmet for our week on the green blue and odd red pistes
and yes i agree it was no problem at all and much better than my old hat 
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FAQ
