 Poster: A snowHead
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Well, this only proves that I am American.
Over Christmas in Tignes, in the crossing in Val Claret, a boarder came barreling through the crossing, like a bat out of hell, he was bound to hit someone, and that someone was me - knocked me over. Had a big old bad bruise of 20 cm c 8 cm.... and I was thinking, I should sue his back bottom for being so reckless...
now, didn't do anything except pick myself up and shake it off, but did think it was rather rude at best, and quite frankly, I thought it reckless to be going through such a crowded area where people are also going different directions and such speed....
In the states, he'd would have his pass pulled, in Tignes, no one batted an eye... frankly, I'm happy the collusion wasn't more serious.
that said, not an hour later, an uphill boarder, out of control crashed into me... she wasn't reckless, just learning and not in control. Two days later getting off a lift - a Frenchie, in a big hurry to get off the lift, actually tripped me, such that I ended up in a pretzel just off lift exit - blocking the exit. The liftie, after getting me out of the way, did go after him, or at least that's what I think he did...
But, I've never, never had collisions, 25 years of skiing, than 3 in one week in Tignes... what am I to think of this?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 17-01-16 23:33; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It says in the daily mail article link:.."He (the teacher) did not realise the danger because many people had taken this piste over the previous two days ". This is what is to blame - the culture of people ignoring the advice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@cameronphillips2000, what a chilling story. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You may believe in your own version of motivation. I'm free to believe mine.
Sad maybe, it's THE difference between Europe and US ski resorts:
"The family of the little girl filed an amusement park lawsuit against the City of Casper and the Casper Mountain Ski Patrol, alleging that the ski patrol had been aware of the man’s history of reckless behavior and did not warn the family or others on the slopes, and that the man’s actions remained unrestricted."
(https://www.zevandavidson.com/little-girl-dies-in-skiing-accident)
I think the family is grasping at straws. That's one very typical scenario of "inherent risk" of skiing. They're trying to pin it on the mountain by claiming it's an amusement park!
Unlike in the Alps, US ski resorts has full control of their terrain (though not the snow). While not exactly amusement park, the expectation is they have a lot more control of their domain than their European counterpart. So mountains act according to that expectation. It's not so much "genuine care" but maintain an enjoyable environment for the customers to come back year after year. Unruly skiers don't fit in that picture. US ski resorts have a inherent incentive for removing unruly skiers from their mountain.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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No disrespect but is all this chat really necessary at this time.
Two children have lost their lives their parents will never see them smile or hear them laugh again, to grow up have children themselves.
Can we not just offer our deepest sympathy and thoughts to all involved, and our appreciation to all those who helped in the aftermath of this tragedy.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 17-01-16 23:56; edited 1 time in total
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The argument that the French don't want rules dictating where and what they ski, and it's their country / their culture etc so they can have whatever rules they want, may have some validity. But I wonder is this way of running ski resorts a little passe, and maybe European resorts need to shift closer to American resorts.
The enforcement of slow zones is a no brainer. Making certain off-piste areas out of bounds is also very compelling. But even just these two changes will cost money.
I do agree with some of the posters above that the only thing that will drive this ultimately will be fear of litigation, or of regulatory sanctions
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| poppyb wrote: |
| It says in the daily mail article link:.."He (the teacher) did not realise the danger because many people had taken this piste over the previous two days ". This is what is to blame - the culture of people ignoring the advice. |
Sorry, but I just can't agree with that. Just 'cos other people were doing it doesn't mean the teacher shouldn't have stopped and thought about it, and realised it was dangerous. The fact other people do something doesn't absolve you from the responsibility to think for yourself.
For example, I've seen lots of people drive after drinking a couple of beers, but I've never done so myself.
The problem is the general lack of awareness that mountains can be dangerous, that they're not controlled Disneyland on snow, that avalanches can and do happen and aren't some rare phenomenon that generally only happen in action films, and that people do need to think and manage risks or they'll get hurt or potentially killed.
The resorts need to do more to highlight that.
They won't though, 'cos they're worried it would scare the tourists away.
Education > restrictions
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've been reading this thread since the night it was reported, the families of those affected must be going through hell and they have my deepest sympathies.
I also think that discussing the issues everyone has brought up is actually quite a good thing - providing the blame game is avoided.
The tragedy has clearly struck a chord. If this helps people to recognise the dangers inherent in the sport, and how our own behaviour on the mountain can help mitigate those risks, at least something will come of it. Sometimes a single incident can create a real culture shift and raise awareness. (For instance, the death of Natasha Richardson caused all the skiers I know to buy helmets without any real debate or discussion, we just did it.)
Without pitching too heavily into the debate about resort liability, it does seem clear that there are elements of ski culture at play as well as the wider element of litigation and both have an effect. The best moderation of speed and overall on piste behaviour I have experienced was at Whistler. People were employed to stand and slow skiers / boarders down at pinch points and act to take passes if they were ignored. This is way ahead of anything I've seen in France.
But the closest to a very, very serious accident I have ever witnessed was also at Whistler. A skier took a large jump off the roller just before the start of Dave Murray on the last run of teh day, landing between two intermediate boarders that were virtually stopped on the slope - just at the wrong point. He missed them by inches (his ski tails even clipped their top sheets) , but it could have been very, very messy. In my view, it also could have happened anywhere - he was just too confident, too used to the run, not considering others. The reality is anecdotes make up our understanding, but the whole issue is much more complicated. Liability may help, but even very strict policies will be broken if individuals are blasé about risk and don't see it as relevant to them.
As for off piste, this too seems to have become something too easily part of skiing vocabulary. I am very inexperienced and always play it safe because I know that I don't know what I'm doing. It seems to me that here a little bit of knowledge can really be a very dangerous thing indeed. The problem is, lots of people get that little bit and then head off out.
In some situations people take calculated risks and it goes the wrong way. Accepting risk seems part of the attitude of some skiers, but in fairness some of the best videos I've ever seen of skiing quite clearly were made with a very acute risk of injury or death accepted by the participants. The issue is when everyone else, who are not ski rock stars, seem to be wilfully ignorant of what can happen to them and others involved, but try and get stuck in anyway.
Part of the answer has to be education, not just taking more passes away, but that is very much easier said than done.
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Anyway in other Merika it ain't the same news:
[img]http://forum.pugski.com/attachments/image-jpeg.2726/[/img]
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Pynch, good point about the "ski culture".
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Part of the answer has to be education, not just taking more passes away,
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I see that as one of the most effective education!
(Reality is, the skier can go to the lift office and argue his case. Majority of pass confiscation is for one day. Season pass owners are given a stern warning and their pass back, good for the next day onward. But if they got caught again, they're likely to lose the pass for the season)
Personally, I wish North America and European ski industry can learn from each other.
North American skiers typically don't go into closed area. They know they'll get to ski avi safe terrain if they only wait patiently for them to be opened, because no one else would go into those area until ski patrol did their avi control work anyway. In Europe, that's not the case. Few people understand where and when avi control are being done. And in any case, closed piste ARE off-piste. So early birds gets powder! Indeed different ski "culture".
On the other hand, outside of ski area boundary in North America, there's no "culture" of professional guide. So everybody just go off-piste in the back country, relying on their "friend's" experience, or just luck.
Ideally, it would be best that the two sides of the pond learn from each other, to create environment that has inbound avi-safe off-piste, AND sufficient & affordable professional guides for out-of-bound off-piste, to suit skiers of ALL level of powder proficiency as well as ALL level of risk profile.
But we don't live in that world yet...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's sad that this is apt again... Knew I'd written it once, and was writing it again, so just dug it out of the archive from a couple of years back...
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
All for more information about dangers on the mountain (ask me about tree wells sometime)... But it's not Johnny and Jenny and lil Junior Punter that are generally the problem in this scenario. It's people like you, me, and probably most others here who are well aware of the dangers of our environment. We've seen the videos and read the info cards and know the scenarios and we would have the passcard/badge to show our attendance of the "THE WHITE DEATH" awareness course.
But we're humans and we're dumb as rocks; especially when we're in groups - we see something we want and we work out how to go get it. And then we cut corners. We use the dining room chair with the wobbly leg to change the lightbulb rather than getting the stepladder. We lever apart the frozen burgers with a cleaver rather than letting them defrost (thanks to missus and Whipps Cross Casualty dept for that example) and we go off piste in marginal conditions because you've maybe done it before and got away with it or there are tracks which you KNOW are no indication of safety but do make you feel a bit better anyway, and you do take that shortcut between the trees without avi gear because you reckon its a bit of overkill...
You're right [more education] would make people think a bit, but they'll still think they can get away with it until the day they don't. |
As much as I hate to say it - I genuinely don't think that there was anything that would've stopped that poor sod taking that route that day.
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| HeidiAmsterdam wrote: |
| 25 years of skiing, than 3 in one week in Tignes... what am I to think of this? |
I had the same for the first time in Val D'Isere, i would go back for the skiing, but not for the people or the attitudes, lots of morons...
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You know it makes sense.
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A few posts questioning what we are dicussing on this thread at such a sensitive time.
I don't think we should speculate on the actual incident.
I do think, the skiing community, inclduing this forum, can and should use this incident to catalyse discussion and debate on skier behaviour.
We do know that people regularly ski on closed slopes. We also know that people regulalry ski off piste, above other skiers.
We all, collectively, need to change this culture. We owe it those affected by last week's tragic incident and hte many more affected by similar incidents.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| HeidiAmsterdam wrote: |
Well, this only proves that I am American.
Over Christmas in Tignes, in the crossing in Val Claret, a boarder came barreling through the crossing, like a bat out of hell, he was bound to hit someone, and that someone was me - knocked me over. Had a big old bad bruise of 20 cm c 8 cm.... and I was thinking, I should sue his back bottom for being so reckless...
now, didn't do anything except pick myself up and shake it off, but did think it was rather rude at best, and quite frankly, I thought it reckless to be going through such a crowded area where people are also going different directions and such speed....
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You've far more restraint than me - the air would have been completely blue and that's in the event that i hadn't seen the twunt coming and dropped a shoulder and/or positioned a ski pole pointy end out. I've never actually deployed the hedgehog strategy but I hear from those that have it has a remarkable effect on helping the out of control gain enough control to divert slightly.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Without pitching too heavily into the debate about resort liability, it does seem clear that there are elements of ski culture at play as well as the wider element of litigation and both have an effect. The best moderation of speed and overall on piste behaviour I have experienced was at Whistler. People were employed to stand and slow skiers / boarders down at pinch points and act to take passes if they were ignored. This is way ahead of anything I've seen in France.
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I have seen the police (not the piste staff) on a piste in Les Arcs with speed guns pulling over dangerous skiers. I am not sure what action the police were taking but they were definately pulling skiers over. There was a warning to reduce speed in place at the top of the slope
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@johnE, good to see. My BiL got hammered into last week. Minding his own business and then BANG. Black and blue ribs, knees and ankles, apparently. The offender was in a worse way and hope that he learns from it. About time that more was done to stop people from uncontrolled hooning...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@abc, Having read the capser story (http://ski-patrol.net/wordpress/casper-ski-patrol-sued/) i'm not convinced the boarder is at fault here....
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| 5-year-old that was killed on Christmas Eve in 2010.....Elsie and her mom, Kelli Johnson, were reportedly skiing on Dreadnaught, an expert run, and had stopped in the center of the trail when Shirley collided with them....Elsie Johnson and Craig Shirley, 23 years old, both died of blunt force trauma. |
Not saying that Craig Shirley shouldn't have been going slower or taking more care, but should a 5 year old be on an expert run? Not in my view...
Furthermore
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| There was a “roller” above where the incident occurred that would have obstructed his view behind it. By the time Shirley saw them, according to one witness, Shirley was landing after hitting the jump and was only 10 feet uphill with no opportunity to avoid hitting Elsie and then Kelli. |
What about stopping in places of lack of visibility? Well known in terrain parks, clear the area where visibility is blocked or make yourself visible..
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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With regards to removing liftpasses from dangerous/out of control skiers/boarders in France, I'd heard from a well known British ski instructor based in Les deux Alpes that some years back a French resort did try to remove a skier's pass for reckless behaviour but he went to court and the French court ruled that the resort did not have the legal authority to remove his pass. If that is true then I would humbly suggest that the French Law needs to change.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Levi215 wrote: |
@abc, Having read the capser story (http://ski-patrol.net/wordpress/casper-ski-patrol-sued/) i'm not convinced the boarder is at fault here....
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| 5-year-old that was killed on Christmas Eve in 2010.....Elsie and her mom, Kelli Johnson, were reportedly skiing on Dreadnaught, an expert run, and had stopped in the center of the trail when Shirley collided with them....Elsie Johnson and Craig Shirley, 23 years old, both died of blunt force trauma. |
Not saying that Craig Shirley shouldn't have been going slower or taking more care, but should a 5 year old be on an expert run? Not in my view...
Furthermore
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| There was a “roller” above where the incident occurred that would have obstructed his view behind it. By the time Shirley saw them, according to one witness, Shirley was landing after hitting the jump and was only 10 feet uphill with no opportunity to avoid hitting Elsie and then Kelli. |
What about stopping in places of lack of visibility? Well known in terrain parks, clear the area where visibility is blocked or make yourself visible.. |
I mean you are kidding right? Straight lining at 40-60 mph and taking jumps with no view of the landing? The kids ski had come off btw, and the mother was trying to fix it...
Entirely, 100 %, the uphill sliders fault. Sounds like he was wasted as well.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
With regards to removing liftpasses from dangerous/out of control skiers/boarders in France, I'd heard from a well known British ski instructor based in Les deux Alpes that some years back a French resort did try to remove a skier's pass for reckless behaviour but he went to court and the French court ruled that the resort did not have the legal authority to remove his pass. If that is true then I would humbly suggest that the French Law needs to change.
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It was the police who were stopping skiers in Les Arcs, not piste staff. I doubt if they were even interested it confiscating lift passes, but in charging people with dangerous behavior. I also suspect there is no authority to take lift passess of someone who bought one - you are buying access to the lifts. The person taking the pass may be charged with theft.
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| Quote: |
What about stopping in places of lack of visibility? Well known in terrain parks, clear the area where visibility is blocked or make yourself visible..
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For me, this is where a big old grey area starts.
Should an expert going down an expert piste feel obliged to go slow just in case there is somebody sitting in the middle of the slope below where they can't see? Not really, no, but equally accidents happen; people can get into difficulty anywhere, and once you are in the air your control is seriously limited. I'm no park-rat, but it is common for people to spot your landing as clear before you start a jump. There is no way that the boarder in that example could have had that angle covered. Had he done it before with no problems? probably, but he probably shouldn't have.
If people only stopped at the side of pistes that would be much better (for their own safety, not because others shouldn't be careful), especially on expert runs, but people taking that first tentative, wide traverse attempt at a black is surely a good thing, no? The reality is, risk is everywhere - on piste and off.
Personal liability introduces the stick, but with off piste it seems the perceived risk is often to yourself rather than others so the idea of liability as a deterrent is much less of a factor.
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@JamesHJ i've done similar speeds on runs where there is space and good visibility, also i slow / stop when hitting a ridge / roller so no doubt there is some blame there.
That said... people need to make themselves visible on a slope when stopped under ridges / rollers. Secondly a 5 year old on an icey Red? It's no wonder the kids skis came off....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Should an expert going down an expert piste feel obliged to go slow just in case there is somebody sitting in the middle of the slope below where they can't see? Not really, no |
Surely the same basic principles of safety should apply as when driving - e.g. don't be travelling faster than you can come to a complete stop within your currently visible horizon?
So approaching a blind summit (in the absence of any other information e.g. skiers in front of you not making any changes to pace) you really should slow down. For your own sake as much as anyone else's...
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@under a new name, i don't disagree, however i don't slow to a crawl on a blind summit on a road assuming there to be a disaster on the other side of it... similarly if i know i'm stopped over a summit, i get to the summit quickly to warn others there is an issue.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Levi215
I think in a car that is a fair point, but on the ski slope, people are much more likely to be randomly stopped in a blind spot in the middle of the slope. People like to think they are careful when they are skiing, but the number of times I have seen people stop in the middle of a slope below a lip, or just around a fast bend is ridiculous. Because there are so many people on the slopes, you only need a few non-thinkers to make it dangerous.
I won't slow to a stop going over lips, but I will slow a decent amount unless the run is quiet, or unless I've had visibility to the other side of it
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Closed race courses are the place for skiing over blind summits at speed, you have no idea who may have falls out of your vision otherwise.
I cannot imagine not slowing for a roll over when I don't know who or what may be on the other side.
Which is not to say that stopping under a blind summit is not a bloody silly thing to do.
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| Levi215 wrote: |
@abc, Having read the capser story (http://ski-patrol.net/wordpress/casper-ski-patrol-sued/) i'm not convinced the boarder is at fault here....
| Quote: |
| 5-year-old that was killed on Christmas Eve in 2010.....Elsie and her mom, Kelli Johnson, were reportedly skiing on Dreadnaught, an expert run, and had stopped in the center of the trail when Shirley collided with them....Elsie Johnson and Craig Shirley, 23 years old, both died of blunt force trauma. |
Not saying that Craig Shirley shouldn't have been going slower or taking more care, but should a 5 year old be on an expert run? Not in my view...
Furthermore
| Quote: |
| There was a “roller” above where the incident occurred that would have obstructed his view behind it. By the time Shirley saw them, according to one witness, Shirley was landing after hitting the jump and was only 10 feet uphill with no opportunity to avoid hitting Elsie and then Kelli. |
What about stopping in places of lack of visibility? Well known in terrain parks, clear the area where visibility is blocked or make yourself visible.. |
I don't know if ANY 5 year old kid are capable of skiing that run properly. But suppose it's a 10 year old who crashed and had to put the ski back on at that spot?
In one of the snowhead bash, I was skiing with another snowhead (off piste). We came over this roller, he at a speed that he couldn't avoid hitting some rock, went tumbling for a few times. No harm done, because there's no one on the backside of the roller. But had I came barreling down at the same high speed a minute later, without knowing he was down there putting his skis back on, I would have gone right into him!
There's no question in my opinion whose fault it was for that kind of accident. Sadly, it still happens with rather high frequency. It's a miracle most of them weren't fatal.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think you're all going a bit too far with this. Skiing safely and at an appropriate speed for the conditions is a very subjective decision to make and will always be a grey area.
Skiing in off piste areas above pistes or other skiers or skiing on a closed run is much easier to call and enforce, should the appetite to do so be there.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Well, you were the one who brought the case of inbound collision into this thread. I was merely responding to it.
I totally agree it's rather irrelevant to the main thrust of this thread.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
| I think you're all going a bit too far with this. Skiing safely and at an appropriate speed for the conditions is a very subjective decision to make and will always be a grey area. |
Agreed
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| Skiing in off piste areas above pistes or other skiers or skiing on a closed run is much easier to call and enforce, should the appetite to do so be there. |
Hmm, not so sure. Off-piste above pistes - well, piste locations are approved by the authorities because they are either intrinsically safe from risk from above, or the resort can and must make them safe from risk from above before they open. Natural avalanches occur too, and no open piste should be at risk from them, therefore someone skiing above a piste is not necessarily being reckless, in my view. But conditions change and accidents happen, so I'd put this in your grey area too.
Off-piste above other (off-piste) skiers - Firstly, you can't always know if other people are below you, you can rarely see all the terrain between you and the valley floor. Secondly, and I've been in this situation, there may be no other safe way to get past a lower group who have stopped (lost ski, injury etc.), and it may not be safe to wait interminably. What do you do then? Again, back in the grey area.
Closed runs - that's tricky, plenty of examples above where the closure may not really be warranted (for some or all skiers), and so the skiing of the run is risk free, other than the precedent it sets. Some people say "blanket ban" others not.
So skiing is dangerous and always will be. We (everyone on the mountain) should do all we can to minimise the risk, but hard and fast rules will always be wrong some of the time. Do you make the rules anyway, because that's a slippery path (no pun intended!) to start down...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Church service here on Friday at 6.40, hosted by mayors of Venosc and Mont de Lans, in memory of the 3 victims. Chapelle St Benoit is literally across the road from me so I'll be going.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Its pretty simple, surely, for the head teacher to forbid school groups from skiing offpiste isn't it? That would no doubt include closed runs of any colour.
If they want to go off piste, then it's small groups and full training and full kit.
Problem solved with no handwringing required.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| T Bar wrote: |
Closed race courses are the place for skiing over blind summits at speed, you have no idea who may have falls out of your vision otherwise.
I cannot imagine not slowing for a roll over when I don't know who or what may be on the other side.
Which is not to say that stopping under a blind summit is not a bloody silly thing to do. |
Agree completely. I would drive differently on a public road than I would on a race track. Same thing applies on a public piste
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Its pretty simple, surely, for the head teacher to forbid school groups from skiing offpiste isn't it? That would no doubt include closed runs of any colour.
If they want to go off piste, then it's small groups and full training and full kit.
Problem solved with no handwringing required.
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Absolutely. That should obviously be the rule for children when you are in loco parentis and are not equipped and skilled to manage off-piste risks.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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a lot of would have, could have, should have's....
I expect some sort of future sanctions will come of this... must be, otherwise it was all for not
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There is a different level of care in France. e.g Road death.
http://www.thelocal.fr/20151023/france-under-graeter-pressure-to-cut-road-deaths
France
4.9 Road deaths per 100K population.
UK
3.5 Road deaths per 100K population, which is still bad, but not as dire as France.
That's 3,384 deaths per anum in France.
Every time I drive up to Val d'Isere, there is some French driver in a hurry overtaking on a blind bend.
In comparison to that, the skiing deaths under normal circumstances i.e. On open pistes are minor.
So if one survives the road trip, the slopes are relatively safe.
Unless, of course, the teacher leads school pupils into a death funnel, closed run because he thought he knew better...
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3.5 Road deaths per 100K population, which is still bad, but not as dire as France.
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Is it? I thought it was one of the lowest in the World? Not to say we shouldn't be trying to improve but probably should keep it in perspective?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote="jedster"]
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3.5 Road deaths per 100K population, which is still bad, but not as dire as France.
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2.8 / 100K for the UK in 2014
5.3 / 100K for France in 2014
So you are nearly twice as likely to die on French roads. Sweden, with its much vaunted "zero" road deaths programme has a 2.9 / 100K fatality rate. Holland, with its calm towns is the same as the UK.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/pdf/vademecum_2015.pdf
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| jedster wrote: |
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3.5 Road deaths per 100K population, which is still bad, but not as dire as France.
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Is it? I thought it was one of the lowest in the World? Not to say we shouldn't be trying to improve but probably should keep it in perspective? |
I said that 3.5 deaths per 100k road users is "bad". That works out at 1,658 deaths on UK roads in 2014. (Not to forget nearly 22,000 "Serious" casualties)
{Put that in perspective?:- Fine. Deaths in the British Armed Forces in the 66 years between 1945 and 2011 averaged 108 per year. i.e. 1/15 of the number killed on Britain's roads.
Here are the figures: By War!
Malaya 1443
Northern Ireland 1441
Korea 1129
Palestine 754
Afghanistan 453
Suez 405
Cyprus 358
Falklands 237
Iraq 178
Others 742
Total 6398
Annual average 108
}
I think that's horrific, and just because France kills 3,500 on the roads for just about the same population (66 Million), doesn't make the UK deaths acceptable.
Just because in 1972, France killed 18,000 on their roads, doesn't make today's French road death toll of 3.5K acceptable.
Anyway - that's all by the way.
My point was that the attitude to safety in ski resorts in France seems to be different in France, than in UK. I pointed out the reckless attitude of car drivers in France as noticeable.
But on the pistes:-
People not just ski-ing closed runs, but protesting their right to do so, climbing over the actual safety fences in the process!
It needs to change, but we in Britain will never change attitudes of the French, and why should we think we ever could?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 25-01-16 11:43; edited 2 times in total
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