 Poster: A snowHead
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Don't be a douche would be a further useful tip. |
Exactly. Does anything more need to be said? Perhaps, "have a bit of respect for the people you share the mountain with".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've had a total of three semi adjacent crashes in almost 40 weeks of skiing. I've never crashed into a person skiing below me, only the times when you are passing someone slowly on an almost empty piste and they drift across to your side and close you in. This is difficult to avoid as even if you see them in your peripheral vision if they take away every avenue to escape you either have to leave the piste or they hit you. An immediate hockey stop is a bit difficult on steep bumpy ground.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've just googled the FIS code. Some interesting results:
1. The link to the FIS website takes me to a page with no reference to the code. Even having browsed the site I didn't find the code.
2. The code appears differently on almost every website I looked at.
If we think that collisions are a significant problem, I'm not so sure, then I do believe that skier/boarder education is the way to go. The litigiousness of the US style will just push up lift and insurance prices to stupid levels. The certification of skiers to tackle certain runs just runs contrary to the whole 'freedom' ethos of skiing.
Snowparks account for a disproportionate number of injuries. Should we just close all snow parks? Tempting idea to someone like me who feels they bring a noisy and unpleasantly urban feel to the mountains, but I guess we all have a right to be there so we'll just have to rub along as best we can 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar,
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Exactly. Does anything more need to be said? Perhaps, "have a bit of respect for the people you share the mountain with".
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Well said.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The other way of mitigating your collision risk (apart from staying in the bar) is to avoid stopping in areas where machine snow meets natural snow. Well known, but not often talked about, accident black spots on the mountain - and especially now with some resorts a bit light on the natural stuff. Sudden change of grippiness catches people out (and have known it to cause a pre release) and wham they're outa control and heading your way. Large spikes built onto all-over kevlar body armour also helpful.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I know we mock the punter tuck guys that are phoning home to ET, but maybe they do have a point (or 2). Off to sharpen the tips of my poles a bit more...
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| rob, obviously people forfeit their right to a pseudonym if they use it to hide ... while attacking people with real names. Isn't that a simple moral issue? |
What's in a name?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I've been crashed into from behind three times. ............... |
Must resist, must resist 
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Codemy Goldsmiht: "What's in a mane?"
The ability to rearrange letters in amusing ways
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 7-01-14 17:14; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
saw a good one today. bloke stopped randomly in the middle of the piste, his daughter (about 8yrs) did some sort of emergency hockey stop, lost her edge, took him clean out.
Her dad went mental shouting at her  |
Yes, it's. bit of a chicken and egg one, this one . FIS suggest that you don't stop in the middle of the piste, but if you stop on the edge of the piste you are at the mercy of the "edge of piste bombers" who ski down the edges because (the snownisnoften better there) and because of the people stopped in the middle of the piste ! 
But I can see the idea of telling your kids that if they are skiing behind you, that if they hit you, it was their fault. Someone has to educate them, hopefully instructors, but certainly us parents.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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akirk, I am sorry to say I found your input disingenuous and a little offensive, I certainly hope you did not mean it to be but it does come across that way. Please put me right if that was not your intent.
I never suggested speed is the only factor, and agree that the can be a lack of clarity about who is downhill. I never suggested otherwise.
I never suggested that I can anticipate everything. I would be keen to know what sort of accident, however, on the part of an uphill skier would cause them to hit a skier downhill of them. Seems self evident that we SHOULD anticipate what COULD happen when skiing, that is not the same as always being able to anticipate everything. By default it means we should anticipate what it is possible to anticipate - there will always be the rare/freak/unusual event that we COULD NOT anticipate. I hate to be so pedantic but it is annoying when criticised for something that is different it the actual words I chose to use!
I never suggested that skiing does not involve passing/overtaking others, of course it does! Just that this should be done in a safe manner, allowing for voluntary or involuntary movements of people down the hill. And we should slow down/wait when it would not be safe to pass.
The OP in fact DID suggest that skiers down the hill should be aware of those uphill and allow for their speed/overtaking. I just think this is a nice thing to do where possible, but should never be expected.
I never claimed to be perfect, and your long paragraph suggesting such is offensive and unjustified. I have indeed had "accidents" and have struggled on some slopes at times in my skiing life. What I have not done is ski into anyone else. I have waited for a safe time to make it down slopes I found difficult, and allowed sufficient space and time around skiers downhill of me that even if I do have an accident I am not going to crash into them. What I don't do is assume that because I can make it down a piste without falling that that means I can ski fast, close to others, in a manner where I may cause near misses or actually crash into someone if they do something unexpected. In other words I ski within my actual capabilities around others.
Yes sport is a risk and accidents happen. I have never stated, and do not think, that someone always needs to be to blame. Skiing with the attitude that the downhill skier can be to blame for the path they choose, however, would mean a collision would be the fault of an uphill skier.
All I an trying to do is reduce the unnecessary risk. There will always be a necessary risk to skiing, and as you say accidents will always happen.
I do not wrap my kids in cotton wool or they would not be skiing in the first place, by default.
I suggest you be careful telling others what they should do with their own kids, it is very easy to be offended. If you are a parent you will understand, if not please take the hint!
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zikomo, so many "last words". You must indeed be a lawyer (whether or not a "good" one). 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I can think of a situation where the uphill skier could not avoid an accident. Lets say you are coming over a crest and down a steep icy pitch and there is someone almost at the bottom 100 metres ahead. You make a few controlled turns but then stack it and find yourself sliding and unable to stop. In the meantime the downhill skier slowly skis into your trajectory line and you collide. It is your fault but difficult to avoid apart from never skiing while there is someone ahead of you.
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Poster: A snowHead
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zikomo, I never set out to offend... I simply replied to the post you had made - maybe it is worth re-reading it and thinking about how it may come across to others...
It came across very black and white and very much 'I am a lawyer, therefore I am right, and everyone else is wrong' maybe that wasn't your intention, but it is how it appeared...
as we have seen elsewhere, collisions are a minor element of accidents on the snow, in a high-risk sport where we expect accidents to happen - the majority of snow users accept and understand that... so we can have a sensible discussion without having to get all wound up about it...
I was merely pointing out that it is rarely as simple as you were presenting it - we have to take a realistic view not assume that litigation is the first response as appears to be suggested... I am sure that 99% of skiers / boarders would have no deliberate intention of causing collisions - yes, it makes sense to have reminders to take care - but that is all that is needed - either the reader is grownup and says 'ah yes good point - need to be more careful next time' or they are not so won't take any notice whatever is said
your posts have come across aggresively:
| zikomo wrote: |
| Could not agree more - it is a fact that the downhill skier is always right and you are a good example of why the risk of collisions is higher than it should be. It makes me very angry indeed, as a parent, to see this sort of attitude. I should also warn you that this is an increasingly litigious society and if you hit someone from uphill you will find you need very deep pockets indeed (especially if it is one of my kids). |
You might also wish to stop threatening people:
| zikomo wrote: |
| I suggest you be careful telling others what they should do with their own kids, it is very easy to be offended. If you are a parent you will understand, if not please take the hint! |
it is a discussion forum - people will have different views and that makes discussion interesting - it is rarely helpful for one person to jump in setting rules / giving 'hints' / telling people what to do
Alasdair
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| zikomo wrote: |
| I would be keen to know what sort of accident, however, on the part of an uphill skier would cause them to hit a skier downhill of them. |
A skier losing an edge pushing them into a different trajectory
A skier falling
A skier being hit by someone else and pushed on...
Having to avoid someone else with consequential change in course
Hitting a patch of hard pack / ice which was not easy to see
A boot or ski failing (see other thread ref. boot failure)
Hitting something below the snow which wasn't seen
Finding a slope more challenging than expected (and not able to anticipate it from above)
etc.
Yes, I am sure we could technically and legally argue that someone should never be in such a situation - but all are / could be normal - could affect someone skiing very sensibly and cautiously and could lead to their colliding with someone downhill... Skiing really is not a past-time which can be expected to be carried out perfectly by all - I know a lot of good skiers including ones skiing for England / coaching professionally etc. and I am yet to meet a skier who skies perfectly...
Ultimately it is as unacceptable for the downhill skier to ski in a bubble believing that they are invulnerable and hold no responsibility for anything - they need also to be aware of what else is occuring on the slope and ski to fit in with it - not get legalistic...
I had a moment recently on a slope where someone coming down faster than me (and I am not slow!) had to avoid another skier who was way out of their depth... even though they were above me and therefore under arguments here were automatically in the wrong - I altered to avoid them and rescue the situation - was I wrong - no, I think that makes me a better skier than one who skies unaware of everyone else...
It is the same as advanced driving - you are taught to analyse others' driving and compensate - if you can prevent someone else's accident from occuring - that makes you a good driver...
It is not about letting it happen and then suing them
Alasdair
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Don't be a douche would be a further useful tip. |
Did anyone like the lessons-fine idea? I'm actually rather taken with it. Like the dangerous driving lessons thing you can take instead of points in the UK.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| akirk wrote: |
zikomo, I never set out to offend... I simply replied to the post you had made - maybe it is worth re-reading it and thinking about how it may come across to others...
It came across very black and white and very much 'I am a lawyer, therefore I am right, and everyone else is wrong' maybe that wasn't your intention, but it is how it appeared...
as we have seen elsewhere, collisions are a minor element of accidents on the snow, in a high-risk sport where we expect accidents to happen - the majority of snow users accept and understand that... so we can have a sensible discussion without having to get all wound up about it...
I was merely pointing out that it is rarely as simple as you were presenting it - we have to take a realistic view not assume that litigation is the first response as appears to be suggested... I am sure that 99% of skiers / boarders would have no deliberate intention of causing collisions - yes, it makes sense to have reminders to take care - but that is all that is needed - either the reader is grownup and says 'ah yes good point - need to be more careful next time' or they are not so won't take any notice whatever is said
your posts have come across aggresively:
| zikomo wrote: |
| Could not agree more - it is a fact that the downhill skier is always right and you are a good example of why the risk of collisions is higher than it should be. It makes me very angry indeed, as a parent, to see this sort of attitude. I should also warn you that this is an increasingly litigious society and if you hit someone from uphill you will find you need very deep pockets indeed (especially if it is one of my kids). |
You might also wish to stop threatening people:
| zikomo wrote: |
| I suggest you be careful telling others what they should do with their own kids, it is very easy to be offended. If you are a parent you will understand, if not please take the hint! |
it is a discussion forum - people will have different views and that makes discussion interesting - it is rarely helpful for one person to jump in setting rules / giving 'hints' / telling people what to do
Alasdair |
No. You being unpleasant and for no good reason. I did not threaten you, merely offer advice, i.e. parents do not like being told by others how to bring up their kids. You seem to read what you like rather than what has actually been written. I appreciate your different view, I do not at all appreciate your attempt to caste me in a particular light that has nothing to do with what I actually say.
I must admit I really do not understand why you choose to attack me in this way, it is not a discourtesy I have extended to all. All I did was present a view and take umbrage when you objected to things I did not actually say.
Anyway, as has been pointed out I have had too many last words. Please help yourself to the last word on this.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| The Flying Gooseberry wrote: |
| zikomo, so many "last words". You must indeed be a lawyer (whether or not a "good" one). |
Agree and sorry!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| a.j. wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| Don't be a douche would be a further useful tip. |
Did anyone like the lessons-fine idea? I'm actually rather taken with it. Like the dangerous driving lessons thing you can take instead of points in the UK. |
Best idea so far!
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Collision in Kitzbuhel: Travel Channel video (and reconstruction animations) of a Manchester fireman and snowboarder who had a really unlucky collision with a colleague skier ... seemingly a classic example of 'no uphill culprit' ...
Collision in Austrian Alps
http://www.travelchannel.com/video/collision-in-austrian-alps
[this was, I think, uploaded 7 days ago]
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Aspen measures sound reasonable and effective. Good for them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
| ...a campaign to boost safety on the slopes without sucking the fun out of skiing. |
That is the challenge - if they can manage that I suspect it will go down really well.
A part of the fun of the mountain is the freedom, no-one wants it to just be a bigger fridge with lots of rules, but if they can balance that with increasing safety then that would be great...
Alasdair
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| akirk wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
No. You being unpleasant and for no good reason. I did not threaten you, merely offer advice, i.e. parents do not like being told by others how to bring up their kids. You seem to read what you like rather than what has actually been written. I appreciate your different view, I do not at all appreciate your attempt to caste me in a particular light that has nothing to do with what I actually say.
I must admit I really do not understand why you choose to attack me in this way, it is not a discourtesy I have extended to all. All I did was present a view and take umbrage when you objected to things I did not actually say.
Anyway, as has been pointed out I have had too many last words. Please help yourself to the last word on this. |
you are kind - please accept - I am not attacking you - I am simply commenting on posts on a forum... just because others don't agree with you - it is not an attack - that is called discussion
you may not like my comments - but don't take them personally - if you post an opinion, others might just have different opinions that is allowed...
you clearly indicate that you will sue if your kids are hit - you clearly tell people to be 'careful' as you might be offended - that is threatening - maybe you need to re-read how it comes across... no-one is telling you how to raise them, suggesting you wrap them in cotton wool and pop them in a drawer until they are 18 is clearly tongue in cheek humour - you didn't seriously believe that I meant to actually do that?! Please, please don't do that - they will run out of air, and starve...
Alasdair |
Not funny. Not clever. Not excused by emoticons. Just offensive. Idiot. |
Oh and whee did I say that I might be offended? Where did I threaten you? Just pointed out that you might want to avoid certain things if you don't want to offend OTHERS. Again I repeat, read what is actually written and stop being offensive about kids.
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You know it makes sense.
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I will freely admit to not ploughing through the last 6 pages, but I think education as demonstrated by Aspen can't do any harm. We've got instructors on here, can they say whether they are encouraged to teach slope safety inc. the danger of speed to their pupils, in particular children? I ask because, perhaps due to the fact that I have never been capable of it, or maybe because I am an adult who might be expected to demonstrate common sense, I don't think slope safety has ever been part of lessons beyond perhaps looking uphill prior to setting off. All I know about it has been learned on line and from posters and tips on piste maps which might be a bit like the airline safety drill and something that folks quickly overlook and maybe forget with time. I think this is where the Aspen approach sounds good. Awareness of the problem must be part of the solution. For the second time today I am going to cite the same example relating to motorcycling:
There is a stretch of road not far from me which attracts loads of motorcyclists. Unfortunately it also results in many dead and injured motorcyclists each year. Over the last summer each Sunday morning the local police set up a check point at the start of the road, they pull, without exception, every single motorised two and three wheeled motorcycle type contraption that goes past and offer them a cup of coffee and a safety chat - I don't think a presence is legally enforced, but I think you would be viewed dimly to turn them down. I think it must have an effect as IIRC they completed the second year of doing it this year and it must cost a bit to set up. This approach seems similar to that in the report about Aspen.
For my part I drum slope safety into my kids at every opportunity in the hope that awareness sticks in their minds for the future. It seems that excessive speed must be due to irresponsibility - if you are skilled enough to go fast it seems reasonable enough to assume that most people will have had lessons at some point. Maybe the consequences of excessive speed have been forgotten over the years. Education could well be the best way forwards.
Sorry, I'm rambling. Too much stiff drink.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
fatbob wrote:
Don't be a douche would be a further useful tip.
Exactly. Does anything more need to be said? Perhaps, "have a bit of respect for the people you share the mountain with".
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Excellent comment.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| zikomo wrote: |
Not funny. Not clever. Not excused by emoticons. Just offensive. Idiot. |
Given that you appear to be a relatively new poster who has got into aggressive arguments with at least 2 people who are not known for being aggressive trolls, and as far as I can see who have not posted anything offensive perhaps a little self reflection might help? Or maybe a bit thicker skin when engaging on tinterweb?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob,
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perhaps a little self reflection
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From a lawyer? Naaah.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The Flying Gooseberry, Do they actually cast reflections?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Avalanche Poodle, I don't know, I've never looked.
No, hang on a minute, that's a punchline to something completely different.
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Avalanche Poodle, Beat me to it. 
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| zikomo wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| blah, blah... |
Not funny. Not clever. Not excused by emoticons. Just offensive. Idiot. |
Oh and whee did I say that I might be offended? Where did I threaten you? Just pointed out that you might want to avoid certain things if you don't want to offend OTHERS. Again I repeat, read what is actually written and stop being offensive about kids. |
So, the post is offensive, but you are not offended? Only a lawyer could make that up.
I actually like akirk's posts - they are reasoned and well-written. Calling him an idiot says more about you than him. Perhaps, build a bridge get over it...
Back to the topic.
There will always be an inherent risk of collision - with people and objects - in skiing. Resorts can treat (mitigate) that inherent risk through various means, directed at reducing either the probability of collision or the effects of it, or both. Treatments could include run design, speed calming (eg via ski patrol pulling lift tickets), padding on fixed objects, etc. Similarly, an individual could do likewise, eg by modifying their behaviour to reduce the probability of collision, or wearing protective clothing (eg a helmet) to reduce the consequences. However, nothing I can think of, beyond not going out on the slopes, will reduce the residual risk to zero.
That is the clinical statement of the problem space. In practice, it pretty much boils down to skill, common sense, and luck. You can work on the former, common sense is up to you, and luck is, well, luck.
My $0.02's worth.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, I teach slope safety and highlight the dangers of speed to all my clients - we are certainly encouraged to do so, both by the resort and the ski instructor's association. We teach the Responsibility Code, which is basically the FIS code. There's a National Safety Week where it's a major part of all the promotions that go on. I also have cards which have the code on that I hand out to all my students, and often highlight certain aspects of the Code in my written recommendations at the end of the lesson. It's also posted around the resort, including at most lifts and on some lift towers so it can be read while on the chair lifts. All my lessons are about skiing safely and in control, and I endeavor to always model "best practice".
I've also done speed control/safety patrol on our home run, which is known to be one of the 4 most dangerous runs in N. America at 3pm on a busy Saturday - not my favourite thing to do and it scares me at times. 
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| Treatments could include run design... |
That is an interesting thought... Are there any studies on run design / traffic flow / etc?
Maybe there needs to be some work on sculpting slopes? Adding berms / barriers etc...
if you think of roads and traffic management there is quite a science on passive control of behaviour - I am sure that there is scope for the same on the ski slopes...
or maybe it is already happening?
Alasdair
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FAQ
