 Poster: A snowHead
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Oooh, handbags at dawn - how did I possibly miss that?  And the contribution from sps89 was so gobsmackingly stupid one wonders whether it was actually a wind-up (although if '89 indicates birth date, maybe we shouldn't be surprised). Maybe condescension and arrogance is a course in the CSIA progression? 
Joking aside, since I've been cited twice here (thanks Rob), maybe I ought to make a comment. To put my quoted comments in context, my off-piste skis (Black Diamond Kilowatts, with Freeride touring bindings) are not reknowned for being good on hardpack (to say the least), so it's not surprising that I had difficulties doing fairly advanced on-piste exercises on them. There are no doubt many fat skis that will do a better job on piste than mine (I got mine as lightweight was more important to me than on-piste performance, and they are wonderfully flexible in crust and crud). Mine still do a good job when the surface is soft though, when they carve fine, and I had them doing some really fun super-G type runs at probably 50-60mph at Xmas. They also do short radius turns fairly well, but no way would they be remotely helpful doing slalom-style turns.
I don't think that anyone is saying that you can't carve a fat ski, just that it's harder to do, and there's definitely a smaller performance envelope. I have skied fat skis that do carve well on piste (e.g. Stockli DP Pros, Dynastar Legend Pros), but they are very stiff. They are good fun, but need space to carve properly, as they are approx 30m radius. But given their stiffness, they are also hard work at low speeds off-piste - they need a lot of speed to get them to bend - so not skis I'd recommend for someone getting to grips with the off-piste.
The edge-hold performance of a ski on piste though is not just stiffness, but the basic geometry is the issue - the edge being further from the midline of your foot means that it's going to try and flatten, and lose edge grip (see Ron LeMasters' book for more on that). You are then putting higher torsional demands on the ski, binding, boot and even your leg. In December I was skiing Elan GSX 67mm, 18.6m radius) for most of the week and the grip was fantastic. This allowed development of on-piste technique way quicker than on a fat ski - high edge angles and stability in standing on selected edges were incredibly reassuring. Off-piste though (bumps and crud under chairlifts), I was nowhere near good enough to handle them reliably. For the last day I had some Nordica HotRod Afterburners (84mm, no idea what radius) - way easier off-piste, but I really had to work much harder to hold decent edge angles when skiing on piste (but it was still easier than on my Black Diamonds).
Yes, David Murdoch would say ski a race SL ski anywhere - and he's good (and light) enough to do so. In Jan I was in a group going off for a powder day and one of the guys (an Aussie) had hired some short TigerCross skis, and we were really nervous he'd have a 'mare and be back to the shop after one run. Fortunately though he was an excellent skier and was doing as well as the rest of us despite the completely inappropriate skis. The day after though he got some Coombas, and then really showed us! (And BTW, narrower skis require you to go faster rather than slower, to get the same float.)
So again it's horses for courses. The important thing is deciding what your course is, and where the constraints are. Often we get the question "I ski 90% on-piste, 10% off, what should I get". This can't be answered without knowing what the reason for that 10% is. If it's "Ooh, I don't really like being thrown around, I like a good play around on piste and a nice bottle of wine at lunch - I just cut off the side for a bit of a thrill from time to time" (nothing wrong with that, but diametrically opposed to "my thing"), then get something that will make that 90% as enjoyable as possible - so go for a narrow ski (<75mm) with a decent sidecut, or longer if you're more of a sweeping turn merchant. If on the other hand "it's only 10% because although I really like it I just can't get to grips with it", then go for something that make it as easy as possible in the area you're having problems. The fact that they spend 90% on-piste is not then relevant - they need something that will make the difference between that 10% being impossible and being an achievable challenge. I have a rule of thumb of "length = height and width in mm = 50 + 0.5*weight in kg". I'm still not convinced about 100+mm for people of an average size though. Yes you get float in spades, but in anything less than Utah powder you're just going to sit on top of the snow and actually not get much of the fun of the deep powder.
I personally have the Kilowatts as I ski probably 90% off-piste - and would take breakable crust over hardpacked artificial snow any day (although windblown concrete would force me back on piste). The performance in crud (and going uphill), far outweigh the loss in piste performance for what I want to ski. If I'm going to have a day on piste though, I'll take a race-oriented piste ski, as cranking that up is the only way I'm going to get some interest out of the day. Were I to be condemned to skiing a B2 on piste all day I'd give up tomorrow!
(And since qualifications seem to be relevant around here: CSCF/BASI L1 coach (trained), about 40 weeks on-snow, of which about 20 weeks guided off-piste experience and recipient of about 250 hours race-coaching)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GrahamN, thanks for the contribution. Sorry, I should have PMed you to say that I'd used you to pray-in-aid.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Actually i retract my last statement, i don't sound like a SH. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Cool, looks like I wound up enough BASI types to get a full on character assassination!
I've never said I'm a CSIA3. I plan to work towards it after I pass my 2 in NZ and then Fernie again next year, but anyway. I just made the point I'm not stupid enough to try and take an ISIA on fat skis. I love that you have to go through my post history to try and dig up stuff to smear me with too after I've upset some little applecarts - I offered to help out Andy and WDF this year, I've never said I'm competing on their skis... my apologies.
Out of interest - How many of you internet quarterbacks are actually teaching with your qualifications you hold so dear? Does a certification make you a better freeskier? fatbob aside (who I missed unfortunately due to work and my cellphone being a dick), I've heard of a fair few snowheads out in Fernie and no-one's asked if I want to go for a ski...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DaveC, For the BASI qualified Instructors that have posted on this thread, in answer to your question, all of us use our teaching qualifications. They're not just trophies.
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It's a shame this has degenerated into a "who's the best skier" kind of thread. Mainly because it's irrelevant but also coz I'd lose 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| DaveC, For the BASI qualified Instructors that have posted on this thread, in answer to your question, all of us use our teaching qualifications. They're not just trophies. |
Probably all except me.
But there again, we all know that I'm a pooh-pooh skier. 
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, again
| slikedges wrote: |
May I ask what percentage of British recreational skiers you think are able to ski off piste competently and carve on piste easily with a ski at 140mm underfoot? |
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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slikedges, i think when people say things like that, their point is that it can be done on a 140mm ski, so it will be that much easier if you are trying it on, say, a 90mm ski
i don't think anyone would want to spend all day carving pistes on a 140mm ski, and i don't think anyone has said this is a great idea
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Arno wrote: |
slikedges, i think when people say things like that, their point is that it can be done on a 140mm ski, so it will be that much easier if you are trying it on, say, a 90mm ski
i don't think anyone would want to spend all day carving pistes on a 140mm ski, and i don't think anyone has said this is a great idea |
Have to say I didn't get all that level of meaning from SZK's comment!
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Arno, this is the original quote
| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| I'm not a good skier by any stretch of the imagination but can ski off piste and carve on piste easily with a ski at 140mm underfoot. |
Now, I'm sure SZK won't have any qualms about answering my question himself, but in the meantime, may I ask you what percentage of British recreational skiers you think are able to ski off piste competently and carve on piste easily with a ski at 90mm underfoot? And I'm not talking about those who frequent La Grave
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You know it makes sense.
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slikedges, not very high, but this is a thread started by someone who had a good time on some fat(ish) skis so I think a little exuberance is forgivable here 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Arno wrote: |
| slikedges, not very high, but this is a thread started by someone who had a good time on some fat(ish) skis so I think a little exuberance is forgivable here |
And that was great to hear. But I think I should point out that Erica's Nordicas were 84mm underfoot. That's just 19mm fatter than my slalom skis and a whopping 56mm skinnier than SZK's skis. The reason I've stuck with this thread, even though it's turned personal, is that I'm trying to give some proportionate advice.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 6-03-09 18:34; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, Me too Taffy
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| rob@rar, Me too Taffy |
Have to be honest and say in that case I think you're not quite hitting the mark
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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well, it made me laugh... and we are all happy bunnies now...??
Been a tough day at the office here and I think we should all go skiing...
is it still snowing..?? it wants to for the next few days.
From a selfish POV, I am talking alpes here...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Arno,
I'd agree. And it's an even smaller percentage who can do what he claims to on 140mm skis. Hence seeing as a random asker is most likely largely a piste skier and possibly not a particularly good skier, maybe it's not serving the asker's best interests for a respondent to be trumpeting a fat ski, just 'cos the respondent enjoys laying down big gnarly freeride turns off piste?
I'm not sure what kick SZK gets out of saying he isn't a good skier. By saying he can do what he claims but that he isn't any good, what is he implying about the standard of skiing of the large majority of us on the forum, as it's only really a small minority who can do what he describes. The other thing is that there may well be some who actually get led to believe it's all easier than it really is, who will be set up for a fall. Not warm and cuddly.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Cock end. 
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dRUNKEN dRIVEL
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 7-03-09 9:54; edited 1 time in total
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| skimottaret wrote: |
DaveC, you kicked it off sunshine and have assassinated your own character pretending to be something your not...
Put a few other manufacturers in your signature, perhaps if you help them out as well they will give you free gear next season |
skimottaret - When did I pretend to be anything? I put the WDF link in my sig because I like the company and what they're aiming for - they're a British company trying to sell fat skis to people like you, for christ sake - I'd rather try and turn water to wine, but I'll support their cause if they send me skis or not. Kind of underlines just how pathetic you're being though dragging WDF into this though, and I think it probably doesn't help your little jab that I mailed Andrew mid-season saying that we aren't actually getting any snow, and he probably shouldn't send me "free" skis this year as there's not much call to demo them to people or test them myself as we were approaching the busiest part of the season. I'm sure he'll confirm that if you don't believe me, sunshine.
Rob - I wouldn't say it's a "who's the best skier" thing, it's more "who thinks they can be the most condesending and anal". I'd like to think I'm doing OK in that I'm not that good a skier though, there are a lot of people who I can guarantee'd leave me for dead. I'm quite happy to accept there's always room to improve... even at arguing on the internet
Arno - the honour would be mine, though I get the feeling we could just go for a ski rather than wave our qualifications and short radius turns around
Anyway, I skied pow again today, and I taught a school group lesson. Hope you're all having fun in the UK
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| .... wave our qualifications and short radius turns around ... |
Curious way for one ski instructor to insult another instructor, especially as you've enquired in a snotty way how many of us in this thread do any teaching.
| DaveC wrote: |
| Rob - I wouldn't say it's a "who's the best skier" thing |
It might be a timely to remind you in your very first post in this thread you said to skimottaret "maybe you're a bad skier" as well as "maybe you're confusing 'carving' with 'short radius carving'."
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So Fat skis, the're great hey?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| So Fat skis, the're great hey? |
Sometimes
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| So Fat skis, the're great hey? |
On Tuesdays. If the snow's right.
But just don't tell that to Walter, my guide mate, he'd just laugh at all of us for even considering it.
Anyway. To summarise.
Thin skis are the best thing ever and suitable for absolutely everything. Fat skis should be banned.
Winds 'em up and backs slowly away *
* We will, for the sake of argument, ignore the 105mm telemark skis I've got.
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You know it makes sense.
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In the voice of Blakey, from 'On the Buses'....................."I'll get you Stanton..........."
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| In the voice of Blakey, from 'On the Buses'....................."I'll get you Stanton..........." |
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Poster: A snowHead
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'll give you my point of view, for what it's worth. I've learned to ski on narrow, carving skis under 70mm. My skis have always been on the shortish side. My Volkls at 69mm have taken me down mogul fields and off piste - in fact they're pretty good. It was a revelation when I tried the Nordica Jet Fuel at how much easier they were to ski off-piste and how much easier they were to ski on chopped up pistes. However, I certainly wouldn't have been able to ski the Nordicas a couple of seasons ago. Personally, I think a novice skier would struggle off piste with ANY type of ski - off piste skiing is very unforgiving of bad technique/position . I think that by the end of next season, I might have cracked it. (That'll be about 16weeks skiing in the past 6/7 years)
I have to say as 'teaching tool', the Volkl carving skis have improved my skiing no end and given me tremendous confidence. If anyone asked me as a 'learner' , I would say go for an on piste top notch performance ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Jeez, great arguments for both sides here guys, I'll bear them in mind skiing my Redeemer's later in the week.......
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks guys - the handbags swinging round here & the all-time flounceo off have really cheered me up as I lie on a bed incapacitated looking at a few inches of fresh on the mountains. I'm pretty sure that all that matters is being able to ski at all.
Out of my excessive quiver of skis I still haven't mounted my "skinny" Movement Thunders up yet as I'm worried about being caught out by a good powder day when on a trip.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret, unlikely I'll be in the 3Vs - the southern alps are catching my eye right now, although sod's law dictates that the snow next year will be rubbish after this year's epic season...
fatbob, what's up? gammy toe still giving you grief?
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Arno, nope stuffed a tip into an icy bump below the pow, full in line over the front release and my "good knee" hyperextended. My fault for skiing a 97mm ski when 84 mm would have been perfect
Something is done but Xrays clean so I'm hoping its just cartillage. Just trying to see if ins will fly me home early (anyone need a prepaid multiday pass for JH and again for Alta/Bird?)
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sps89 departure=seriously funny.
I AM NEVER LOGGING ON EVER AGAIN..... EVER
(Also, hope it isn't as bad as it appears it may be, get well!)
Sent you a PM fatbob
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 7-03-09 21:00; edited 5 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob,
bug... sorry to hear that...
Arno, you taking fats or skinnies next week..??
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FAQ
Sorry to hear that.