How to ski, versus how skiing works...

A snowHead

GrahamN, abc, little tiger, or a thread for 'Instructors, Would-Be Instructors and Racers'? That should weed quite a lot of people out, whilst enabling a fairly wide family of participants to remain adequately anonymous, shouldn't it? That group will be big enough for individuals to test their abilities to explain something in simple terms, if that's what they wish to do, against one another: they don't need the real dumbers-down to act as guinea-pigs.

easiski,whilst I agree that teachers, especially those who give their services freely, shouldn't be 'lambasted', I don't agree that they should be immune from criticism. I am pretty sure that I dish out as many thanks, compliments and generally emollient remarks on snowHeads as I do critical comments and sideswipes, but see no reason to refrain from criticism if it seems justified. Strikes me I'd be a pretty unusual kind of snowHead if I refrained from all criticism and p!ss-taking. wink

A snowHead

Been kind of reluctant to chime in here, but I think perhaps I should. I think it's helpful in these type of debates for folks to make a strong attempt to view the issue through the eyes of the other side.

I can very much empathize with the frustrations students can have when overwhelmed by the information being presented. The learning process can be a humbling and ego taxing endeavor. People who possess great competence in other areas of their lives are suddenly thrust into a situation in which they feel just the opposite. It's very common to find that sense of inadequacy very uncomfortable, and to not appreciate discussions/actions/comments by others that seem to intensify those uncomfortable feelings.

As posting coaches/instructors, we need to keep mind these mental hurdles the student contingent readers of our offerings are trying their best to negotiate, and not react defensively when the occasional outburst of frustration is launched. Rather than take it personally, we need to understand it's a cry of frustration, and an indicator that we have not done the best job we can to reach that particular student. We then need to do what good teachers do; put our ego on the back burner, reach out to the distressed student, and try a new approach.

Sometimes as skiers who have participated in the sport at high levels for many years, we coaches can start to lose touch of, and empathy for, the mental challenges our students are being confronted with. That's why I think it's a good idea to every so often plunge ourselves into a new learning experience in an activity we have absolutely no experience or skill in. Immediately, the glowing confidence we harbor in skiing becomes a distant memory, and we are forced to experience the sense of situational ineptitude our students do everyday. It becomes very obvious what's so aggravating about someone who appears to be flaunting their knowledge and skill. It's a great exercise for getting better in touch with what our students are having to deal with, and opening a greater level of sensitivity to it.

On the student reader side, keep in mind that these threads are being conducted more like a group lesson than a private. Readers come into the thread from different backgrounds, and different levels of skill and knowledge. As this diverse group of readers begin to ask questions, coaches will try to address each question on the level of the person asking, and will try to offer advice in a manner that will best help that individual. In doing that, discussions may tangent off in a direction that makes the information and composition seem well over the head of some other readers.

If you see a discussion take such a detour, and find it begins to leave your present ability to comprehend, please understand that the intention is not to make you feel ignorant, but to help the person who asked the question. The instructor will be just as enthusiastic to change tracts and help you if you'd like to bring the discussion back to earth by posing a more basic level question. And I would pleadingly request that you pose the basic level questions when they arise. You'll be providing two great services when you do.

First, you'll be helping many who are sitting in the wings afraid to ask the same question for fear of appearing foolish, or not wanting to interrupt. Believe me, the coaches here want you to interrupt because their entire reason for spending the time they do here is to try to share their knowledge and help YOU. If you don't interact with them, if you just sit in the wings in confusion, then they don't get the opportunity to fulfill their purpose, and their time has been wasted. No one will think any question is dumb, or below the level of the discussion. Everyone is here to learn, and the discussions at the more basic levels are a major part of that process. Even the smartest and most experienced can benefit from the basic level discussions, as they can fill in holes that may exist in their knowledge base, and in turn take their understanding of the sport to even greater heights.

The second service you'll be providing by asking the basic questions is a self serving one. Hammer us on the basic level questions. You'll find that we will be more than happy to address them, and will try to do so in the most KISS form we can. As you begin to gain a better understanding of the basic concepts and terminology, you may find that the conversations that before seemed out in the ozone suddenly start to become a little more comprehensible. And as your understanding grows, you may find that when you get on your skis little things you've read here on snowHead

may start to click, and you get to experience some of those wonderful "ah ha!" light bulb moments.

I don't think we need to split the forum. We're really all in the same boat, and if we remember that we're all friends here sharing or passion for the sport we love, I think we can all learn together. Some readers may have more trouble comprehending certain concepts,,, some coaches may have more trouble explaining some concepts,,, but if we all exercise our patience and courtesy with each other I think we can accomplish much here, and have a ton of fun in the process.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

FastMan, that is an amazingly open-hearted, generous and humbling contribution to the debate. Thank you! However, whilst I agree that everybody can derive benefit from basic level discussions (especially if they want to teach at all levels, and fancy practising on some dumb learners) I am not absolutely certain that it always works the other way round. There is high level stuff which not only I do not understand, but which is unnecessary for me to understand and which does not justify my saying anything at all: as I've said, it's usually clear to me now from GrahamN's posts that what he talks about is something that doesn't/shouldn't concern me and that it would be best for me to stay quiet and marvel at it from afar. But it doesn't always work that way, cf my getting involved in the ILE debate by mistake (the first time I had posted on BZK for a while) having not realised this was a specialist racing technique.

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From what I see the 'instructors'/expert skiers aren't the ones with the problems re: the technicalities of the discussions. It's some the non-pro's/expert skiers who appear to have this problem. So far I've not seen any instructor/expert skier raise any problems with being asked to explain a more complex issue in simpler terms. I like all the forums on Snowheads because they are fun, instructional, on the whole - friendly and because they are not elite-ist.

I've thought about the idea of the sticky explaining how the thread starters might want the threads to run, but I don't think it would work. For one reason after a while who reads the sticky's - sometimes some of us don't even read them until some time after we start to post (I didn't), for another even if they are read there are some folks who just won't take notice of what they contain. Also, I was once told that on a public forum the thread does not belong to the original poster. Once it is given to the forum a thread can end up going (and often does go) in many different directions to that suggested by the original poster.

I don't believe any of the instructors (esp those discussing things in this thread) want a private place on snowheads to go and discuss technical issues without interference from the rest of us. I've got a vague notion that if this kind of facility is required that instructors probably have an instructors club elsewhere on the net where this can be accomplised - if they don't I'm surprised. My guess is that they post here because they want to share their expertise to the best of their abilities with the rest of us. Just as I'm happy to post what little I know in my subject areas and experiences for the benefit of others and from what I see this applies to most posters too.

Snowheads seems, on the whole, a perfectly happy functioning group of like minded folks enjoying their interest together. Also, I think there is probably sufficient internal censorship from the rest of the community here to keep most folks on the straight and narrow without concocting artificial boundaries, 'rules' and secret groups such as 'instructors/experts only' that I'm sure those they would necessarily include probably don't feel the need for.

Instructors/experts the above are of course only my own personal feelings, but you so all seem to be a great bunch of folks and I'm sure you share because you feel that we genuinely want to learn rather than for any other reason. I would be quite happy for things in BZK to stay as they are.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hurtle, ILE is my preferred transition for general skiing and has been for a while... I was never taught it as a race technique but rather as a transition type that might be useful to me.... it is certainly not just a specialist racing technique... in fact to improve my race handicap further I need to learn to perform a pivot to carve transition at some point in the nearish future.... as ILE and OLR will not suffice..

I think Veeeight even posted this in the other thread ... it is a common racing technique for racers to learn... but less common for a recreational skier to be taught it (which is a shame but is how it is atm)...

Then again carving arc to arc turns is not that common in recreational skiers... so.....

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little tiger,

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Hurtle, it would seem sensible... but I do not see that many skiers doing it that way... rotary entries seem entrenched in many folks skiing...

After all it is free

PMTS

<ducks>

little tiger, Oh, I see what you mean. Not common, but nevertheless adviseable. But if I understood you aright, ILE is not even being taught commonly, let alone used. This is where some confusion seems to lie - what we all must learn to stay safe (I'd class being able to side-slip in that category) what we would all be well-advised to learn, to achieve a decent competence (eg carving arc to arc) and what we can leave out if we're just pootling down the piste for a week or two per annum (eg, possibly, ILE.) What do you think? Or is it hard to put yourself, as someone who is evidently super-hungry for knowledge, in the shoes of an intermediate recreational skier, who is happy to get by with one set of skis and a basic understanding of how to get down all pistes (including blacks) safely, reasonably stylishly and at a personally acceptable speed? I can sort of do that already, but within those parameters would like to improve and get rid of some bad habits, plus I'm now trying to master some off-piste skiing skills. I shouldn't be surprised if those are goals to which quite a few snowHeads aspire.

An analogy in another of my erstwhile interests would be not aspiring ever to play the piano music of Liszt, but to be able to play Mozart really well, in fact to concert standard: technique up to the latter, with tuition and practice, but is not and never will be up to the former.

Sorry, I am wittering to the point of thread-hijack here. Apologies.

veeeight, don't know this acronym, I'm afraid.

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FastMan and Megamum, youre both bang on. Every user of this wonderful forum has differing skiing abilities, from the "newbie" to the "Expert Instructor" but as people nobody should consider themselves better than anyone else. Having a separate Experts Only area would only serve to divide the community, when really it should be about inclusion not segregation. If I want to know something then I'll ask and hopefully someone will answer. I welcome all answers from all members regardless of their level of expertise but of course I will be careful about which advice to take, but then hopefully my question will have stimulated some healthy dialogue.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Not a fan of changing anything. This thread may have got a little out of hand but that is all.
The beauty of snowHead

is that everyone is equal or should be and therefore their views are a POV and valid as much as anyone elses'.

A bit of humility might be missing somewhat somewhere..

snow reports

Hugh Jarse, I agree, but think there is room for debate about what constitutes healthy dialogue. To me it seems neither healthy nor useful, at any level, to argue about the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin. But if some people want to do that, and/or have a debate at the really abstruse end of the technical spectrum, they should perhaps have a place to do it without interruption. But hey, it's up to them, I guess. Since I am unqualified to give advice at all, it's not my advice that risks being criticised! wink

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Hurtle, None of us should consider ourselves unqualified to give advice. If a newcomer showed up on this forum having never put on ski boots before even I would be useful to them in pointing out pitfalls and tips that they might find useful. In fact my advice might be more useful to them because I could pitch it from the perspective of still being able to remember what they need to know rather than having been at that stage many years before and possibly forgetting the little points that might be the things they really might find useful - like being careful when walking down stairs the first time in ski boots wink

I'm sure you've given me tips and contributions in the past as have many other contributors and I look forward to more in the future.

A snowHead

Hurtle, angels dancing on the head of a pin? Have I missed something? Yes I failed to mention that keeping things relevant in BzK IS important. I too steer clear of offereing advice when I know nothing about the subject, it gives plenty of scope for making ones self look very foolish. Laughing

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Hugh Jarse,

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Hugh Jarse, OK, OK, Steps....steps.....stairs - same difference Razz

As for angels dancing on the head of a pin, that's a new one on me, seems pretty impossible as a concept.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hurtle, Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding - I thought this was all about being clear in our explanations wink

Sorry, cheap shot, but its very easy to fall in the very traps we all try to avoid wink

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Megamum, careful now.... you'll start one hell of a row it seems Laughing

first you have to believe in angels. As for me, I dont believe in pins wink

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Hugh Jarse, Me? A trouble maker? Never wink

After all it is free

Megamum, Numpty shot - this is a thread about skiing techniques. wink

As for angels on pinheads, see for example here

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Hurtle, I sometimes wonder why people write that stuff, but then I do like the quote at the end, it would make a good sig. wink

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

comprex, That is brilliantly argued, and I wouldn't disagree with any of the pitfalls you see in accepting a 'horizon of aspiration' (lovely expression, btw) or the fears which give rise to that acceptance. I guess the gloss I would put on this is to say that there comes a point in any endeavour when you just know you are not capable of achieving a certain goal. I am never going to be a concert pianist or a ski racer, I am too old and have never been sufficiently gifted. That does't mean I can't go on learning. In other words, I agree with your advice to keep the target moving, whilst at the same time ensuring that it is a realistic one.

You know it makes sense.

Hurtle, when I took up skiing the resort doctor(who has lived there many years and was a friend of my recently deceased brother) tried to ban me from skiing.... he thought skiing simply too dangerous for me.... This resulted in me in tears blabbering at my instructor, who had to accost said doctor in bar and explain that as I would not yet LET GO of instructor I was not likely to head off down the hill out of control and add to the toll of mangled bodies my friends were experiencing that year....

I would have been happy to ski the bunny hill alone and in control at that point in time.... later I wanted to ski the "big hill" (green run no less!) eventually I was content with the aim of skiing perhaps all of that same "hill" bar the black runs (blue runs and easy blues at that).... eventually I was wanting to ski the other side of the resort (I'm still not up to the "steeper blue" on the first side).... etc... you get the drift...

I'm still not expecting to even ski real parallel turns....

My main instructor arrived in my life just after that and after a chat with some experts decided I WOULD ski just like everyone else even if it would take longer than most and much more work to get there....

I started skiing at nearly 40 years of age.... I now ski reasonably well.... just keep aiming for the next step up.... many things are possible...

or in the KISS version
How do you eat an elephant?
One bite at a time!
Very Happy

Or the saying from Richard Bach "Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours!"

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

little tiger, What can I say? Hats off, I guess. You are exceptional in many ways, though.

A snowHead

Hurtle, is the glass half empty? Or is the glass half full?

While I "normally" am quite good at learning physical activities, skiing proved to be qutie difficult for me. At the end of my first few classes, I was always the only one who wasn't quite able to do the drills of the day! Sad

So, when I started skiing lessons some 20 years ago, all I wanted was to be able to ski the wide flat trails with ease. I really didn't see much reason to even attempt any of the blacks, which I firmly believe was beyond my natural capability! Embarassed

Then, I found myself stranded on the top of some black ones with no other way down (either due to inadequate snow coverage or the blue piste I meant to ski down was being used by kiddie racing etc). So I decided it's SAFER to learn to cope with black ones with some degree of control, if just for occasions like that. Wink

Still, I had no aspiration for "mastering" the blacks.

Fast forward 10-15 years, I found myself not only going down black piste without pausing, I sometimes purposely look for narrow passages between tree trunks and rocks! Shocked

I never purposely "work" to ski trees, it just kind of "happened".

On the one hand, I don't have fix goals, therefore I never have to worry about failure. Wink

On the other hand, I know for a fact I'll be a considerably better skier 10 years from now. And I had as a proof of the previous 10 years! Smile

What I'm trying to say is, most skiers do improve as they ski more, some faster than others. So whether you purposely improve on chosen area or just naturally feel more and more comfortable is your choice. What you think today you "never able to do" may some day become so natural you wonder why you thought that way before! Laughing

A snowHead

little tiger beautifully illustrates, via sharing her personal experience, an excellent point. Great post, little tiger Succumbing to current expectations, imposed by self or others, can very much dictate future reality, as the level of knowledge and understanding we have today can severely limit what we see for ourselves tomorrow. Her journey is testimony of the rewards that can come from refusing to succumb. I think she has even surprised herself how far she's come, and therein lies the lesson for all of us.

And comprex, loved your post too,,, the idea of moving targets resonates so much with me. Never resign to preconceived personal limits. What comprex said here is so true;

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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comprex, great post. Many people say 'I'll just be happy when I can get down a red run - I don't want to ever ski a black run' , but once they can actually ski and enjoy a red run the idea of a black is not so bad. Of course it's terrifying if you're struggling on blues, but with gradual learning and not overfacing the goalposts can keep changing.

Hurtle, You should not confuse being a virtuoso (WC racer) with being highly skilled skier. The former is unobtainable for 99.9% of people, the latter is not.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

comprex, I agree with everything you say. For me the main point is the older you get, the more important technique is to get you to the places you aspire to be. Brute force doesn't cut it any more, if it ever did.

The moment I stop learning or improving or struggling at times, I will find something else to do.

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How this thread has evolved. I am very pleased to see the normal SHs service of warmth and fuzziness has been restored.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

David Murdoch, I am told schnapps is good for an oxytocin hangover.

After all it is free

Does anyone think we ought to establish a points system for being POLITE and KIND? The reason I ask is that, as the many ISIHAC fans on here are well aware, "points mean prizes!!" Toofy Grin

Oh, sorry, that acronym stands for 'I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue' - an English radio programme of some distinction (but not notable, it must be admitted, for its politeness.)

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Hurtle, to my mind this new thread is a logical next step from the one we're currently reading.

Help!!

How to ski, versus how skiing works...

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