Interesting thread here. Looking back at the original post has led me to question a couple of things regarding ramp angle....
For at least the last 7 or 8 years I've worn exclusively zero drop shoes (zero ramp angle in ski talk) for any an all activity. Vivo Barefoots for the gym and Altra's for running, hiking etc etc and Vans for most social stuff (Occasionally a dress shoe when my wife moans at me for wearing the same tee shirt and jeans for every occasion....) I'm a firm believer in the healthy feet cure all sorts of bad juju side of things.
So based on this and the original post I decided to look into ramp angles. Now my shifts have only a 1mm ramp angle, but my Fischer Ranger Ones have an almost 13mm ramp angle! That is similar to what you might find in a traditional running shoe.
I'm clearly not used to such a heel toe difference and would love to know if:
a) there are any boots out there with a lot lower ramp angles?
b)shimming might be the way to go?
*edit to add, my boots were fit and moulded.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@afterski, you could try skiing in your Vans and see what you think? But seriously, the biomechanics of skiing vs e.g. walking would suggest that the angles don't carry over?
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@afterski, are you sure about the ramp on the Shifts. Somewhere in the back of my mind I recall Jon from the Piste Office posting that the delta for touring boots in the Shift was much higher than alpine boots due to the different shape of the toe and sole of each type of boot. I may be wrong (nothing new there) but I recall the shift being about 10mm and requiring toe shims for us sensitive types.
@HammondR I believe you are correct but Ranger Ones are alpine boots with apres mode and dyn holes.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Because Shifts have a height adjustable AFD their delta changes depending upon the boot sole type used - so most alpine soles will have 1-2mm delta and fully rockered AT soles will have 8-10 delta.
Binding delta is only part of the equation as the ramp angle of the boot board (zeppa) within the boot and the forward lean angle of the boot are considerable factors - and these vary between the make/model of parts - so when one does a boot change the whole set-up needs to be reassessed.
I'm kind of feeling that I'm line C in the link here even with the shifts.
13mm of boot board ramp angle seems a lot compared to other boots. I've got great dorsiflexion (30% if I really push it) so don't really need that to get a large forward lean but boy do my quads get chewed up quick. I'm going to investigate my boards and see if I can trim them down a bit.
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under a new name wrote:
@afterski, you could try skiing in your Vans and see what you think? But seriously, the biomechanics of skiing vs e.g. walking would suggest that the angles don't carry over?
Hmmm. I'm not convinced of that. To compensate for modern peoples terrible movement patterns maybe, but your ability to exert force through your feet, balance and your proprioception is always going to be better as the human body is designed.
The reason that most gym shoes have a 10mm + heel/toe drop these days is to compensate for most peoples dismal range of motion in their ankles, specifically in dorsiflexion. This is clearly also true for ski boots as having a raised heel allows people with bad dorsiflexion to more easily get into a shin forward position.
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After all it is free
skimottaret wrote:
@Valkyrie, NOOOOO don't shim your heals unless you want to skid more. Probably tiring as you are actually edging and bending the Speedzones. I have those same skis and had skied the old Titans and the Dynastars are way stiffer torsionally
@skimottaret you've got me curious now. Are you saying "NOOOOO" because you've seen something in my stance on my skis that makes you think I've already got too much delta or is it based on your own experience that reducing the delta gave you a big improvement? Presumably a lot of skiers benefit from having more delta in the binding, otherwise why would the bindings be built and sold that way? How do you tell if somebody needs big delta versus little delta?
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@afterski, I think you’ll find that much of the forces in skiing are directed by the shins thru cuffs rather than the soles of the feet, no?
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To me it's all about ability to achieve forefoot pressure. My shin doesn't give me the feedback I can get from my feet. It is just a proxy for making sure you are over the front of your boot. I've just listened to an interesting podcast about it here. Where I've linked from is the ramp angle and forward lean discussion. A few minutes into where I've linked from "as long as you can stay over the front of the boot, reducing ramp angle will increase fore foot pressure"
I have a significant range of motion in my ankle (30 degrees or so).
Got the boots out last night. Did some faffing. I've removed the footbeds, which has reduced ramp angle significantly according to my phone, and spoilers (for more upright stance). Figured it was better to start that way than plane down the ramp first. As I said I''m pretty much barefoot shoes all the way so have quite good balance. However standing in my ski boot last night with the footbed in my balance was significantly worse that after I removed it. Clearly my arch wasn't getting the proprioception it needed to help me fire muscles properly for balance.
Going to take them to the local indoor place soon and test out both options back to back.
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@afterski, thanks fo rthe link, I'll have a listen in the gym this morning. Will be interesting to hear how you get on. Will feedback re cast
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Valkyrie wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
@Valkyrie, NOOOOO don't shim your heals unless you want to skid more. Probably tiring as you are actually edging and bending the Speedzones. I have those same skis and had skied the old Titans and the Dynastars are way stiffer torsionally
@skimottaret you've got me curious now. Are you saying "NOOOOO" because you've seen something in my stance on my skis that makes you think I've already got too much delta or is it based on your own experience that reducing the delta gave you a big improvement? Presumably a lot of skiers benefit from having more delta in the binding, otherwise why would the bindings be built and sold that way? How do you tell if somebody needs big delta versus little delta?
@Valkyrie, Yes, After coaching you for a week I would say you personally would benefit from a reduced delta angle, definitely NOT increased. As a quick test at home with your ski boots on do some deep flexing into the boot as hard as you can side on to a full length front mirror. While flexing down see if your hip moves forward or aft and if it does roughly by how much.... Then do the same exercise with a 10 or 20mm shim under your heals to exaggerate the delta. compare and contrast .
There is a lot to absorb in Boot and binding set up and not everything is intuitive. I have had hundreds of clients get their boots fitted correctly by top fitters but only a few dozen have then gone onto sorting out delta angle and a handful their ideal position along the ski. While I race coached we routinely set up equipment for our athletes and I have NEVER heard of any skier (past the advanced level) who ended up with a prescribed delta of over 2mm.. Almost everyone one I have skied with after playing with delta angle prefers flat (zero) delta. My advice would be to do the above exercise and if you find your hips move back with shims under heals (they probably will ) then check your current skis delta. You can easily do this by clipping a boot into one ski. Measure the distance from the base of the ski to the base of the boot where your heel bone would roughly be, then the same measurement at the ball of your foot area where the boot sits on the AFD. deduct this from the heel height and you have your Delta in mm....
Either make up some shims in the thickness of your measured delta (or call Jon at the Piste office who is really good at this and will have some in stock) and put a shim under your toe bindings to zero out delta and ski em in and see what your prefer. One caveat on doing this is to ensure that the binding attachment screws are long enough and won't pull out from your plates.. A few mm should be okay. >6 and I would be thinking about asking Jon to supply some longer screws (they are hard to find and usually can only get from the manufacturers)
EDIT : Just read back and saw you have already measured delta, 2mm ish is easily toe shimmed. Probably won't make a huge difference but you definitely don't want to add in delta.
Recreational level binders were designed back when skis were straight and hard to turn. To make straight skis easier to "turn" manufacturers designed them to be heel high to make em easier to skid and less "tiring".... More recently designed alpine only binders typically have much less delta..
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@skimottaret, interesting...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@afterski, @under a new name, if you want an ultra nerdy podcast on boots listen to the one of the top boot guys in the world. 3.5 hours from Matt Manser Head of Atomics boot design... Tom's stuff is good as he is in discovery mode but Atomic has been at the forefront of this stuff for a long time.... Matt is a very approachable guy and has cleared up a few things for me... Check out the ones listed as a "very deep dive into ski boots".
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 26-09-23 13:23; edited 2 times in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@afterski, You can check out some very techie research by a guy name David McPhail if you are keen on biomechanics.. He is a bit odd and not everyone agrees with all his findings (he isn't a big fan of in boot orthotics for instance) . He was running a ski tech blog fairly recently but I think he took all his posts down in a huff...
Does have some compelling rational on what zeppa angle (ramp) should be within a boot and his recommendations work perfectly for me. By memory McPhail recommended 2.6 Zeppa for racing and Atomic have settled on 4 for rec boots. somewhere in between is probably where you should be aiming.
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Poster: A snowHead
@skimottaret, I didn't feel that David McPhail had kept up with current boot design. He may be able to claim the credit for features in current boots but a lot of his blog posts seemed to be about problems in 25yo ones.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Valkyrie, have you checked what your ankle flex is on both legs ? download a phone spirit level app and check em out. Your issue could be more of a lack of ankle dorsiflexion and not ramp angle. by memory you needed to flex the boots more... Remind me when I see you next and I can measure you up and have a closer look...
I measure dorsiflexion both weighted and unweighted. Unweighted do it sitting in a chair and get your tibia perpendicular to the floor. press the phone onto the side of your foot and raise your toes to max and get your reading.. 20 deg ish is pretty normal, 30 is good. 15 or less and I would suggest you need to do some foam rolling and stretches, under 10 and see a boot fitter for heel lifts to position your foot correctly inside the boot. These are all very approximate and you may have bone restricting movements, previous injuries etc... etc...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@rjs, yeah I agree completely and hence the caveats...
I'm going on a course in February and, since one of the instructors is a technical guru on these matters, I might ask him to be very kind and opine on my set-up.
@Hurtle, Lubrication with Rioja always helps on obtaining opinions
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
skimottaret wrote:
@Hurtle, Lubrication with Rioja always helps on obtaining opinions
noted.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@skimottaret, Thanks for the links. As I said I'm a keen minimalist shoe guy so I'll have a listen to David McPhail. Interestingly, I had a mate come round and bike fit me as I was having some issues with my knee and ability to push hard (HR) on the turbo. As well as a bit of fiddling with toe out and Q factor etc etc he suggested I get some inserts. We went back and forth (me minimalist: "bad bad bad", he taking the opposite tack). His position was that whilst fine for normal ground contact sports, that doesn't apply to bikes as your foot never gets a full contact with the ground which puts your proprioception out of whack..... Well, I got some inserts sorted and he was right.....
I'll have a listen to the blister one too thanks.
Tonights faffing has led to shimming to 0 degrees tested against not shimmed. Balance improved (boots on floor with no skis). Hopefully I'll get to the ski centre soon. Wondering if I should test asymmetrically.....
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It made a huge difference to my skiing to be correctly balanced in my boots and skis by Andi at @CEM's establishment. I'm not sure if Andi's still doing it though but I'm sure Colin would know.
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@jd_evans, Last time I chatted to Andi he has pretty much given up on skier alignment work. He has a very sweet gig with Rolls Royce setting people up in custom cars... Bit more fun than staring at feet all day
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The biggest equipment change which has benefited my skiing - and the skiing of my students who have followed suit - is switching to a centre mounted, twin tip ski
In combination with a lightweight boot with a more upright cuff the raised tips and true centre point of the ski has made both pivoting and carving much easier in all snow conditions and terrain
It takes a little while to get used to the balance point but once you're there turning becomes so much easier
An added benefit is ski touring is smoother and more comfortable, especially when zig zagging up hill and making kick turns
I prefer a narrower platform underfoot to enjoy the immersive experience when skiing powder (116-84-110) but there are plenty of lightweight mid-fat to fat twin tip skis out there which hold an edge really well, float more in the powder, and whose swing weight allows you to pivot effortlessly in the bumps, crud and in the trees
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@skimottaret, it's a shame if Andi has given up with the balancing work without passing on the baton, getting balanced made a huge difference to my skiing and greatly reduced leg fatigue.
He had fingers in lots of pies, sounds like he's found a sweeter one!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I like touring poles. Try them longer, try them shorter. Snows a lot, going steeper, groomer day? Can change the length. Nice
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Reporting in from testing:
Bear in mind that I needed a few warm up laps etc etc.
I was pretty happy with the zero drop other than the affect that shimming the front of the boot board has wedged my toes up slightly too far into the outer. I'll likely grind the heel down a bit to fix this issue, or build myself a whole new zeppa. Either way, the current zeppa feels far to flexible without the insoles (the central part is unsupported). If I end up grinding the heel down I will pop a thin later of carbon plate on top of it to stop the flexing.
I put the spoilers back in almost immediately as that was clearly not working out.
Overall I felt much more balanced although as I haven't skied since March, it's a bit hard to say..... So generally happy with the low ramp angle, the forward lean remains the same (not actually sure what it is), and there is more faffing about to come.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@afterski, Wouldn't it be easier to do the adjustments outside the boot?
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Poster: A snowHead
@rjs, the drop on my bindings is already minimal so any shimming would mean that I'd be toes higher than heels.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I am just starting to dive down this rabbit hole and have a question about measuring delta angle.
I have marker squire bindings and atomic hawk grip walk boots.
Advice on how to measure delta seems to be that the front measurement is to the AFD. However on grip walk soles the AFD sits on the angled part of the front plate of the boot so I presume it is necessary to measure to the flat part of the plate upon which the boot rests when standing upright?
If I measure to the AFD I get a measure of -0.5mm. If I measure to flat part of front plate then I get +4mm which seems about right.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@snowheid, I would clip the boot into the binding and THEN measure to where the AFD contacts the grip walk sole.
The grip walk soles are meant to wear and are replaceable, the key point is the contact to the AFD which wont wear. I would say in your case the Binding Delta is near flat at -0.5mm.
Im not familiar with those boots but on my Gripwalk boots there is a flat plate that interfaces to the AFD and sets the binding ramp in a consistent way and not impacted by rubber sole wear.
Here is a photo of a grip walk base plate for reference showing the orange hard plastic bit that actually sits on the AFD.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Yes, my boots do have plate.
I am just struggling to work out the angles involved.
I think I have it now.
I am assuming that the ramp angle for a grip walk boot is then calculated in relation to a line from that contact plate to the heel of the boot rather than what I have described as the base line in my vid?
After all it is free
After all it is free
skimottaret wrote:
The grip walk soles are meant to wear and are replaceable, the key point is the contact to the AFD which wont wear. I would say in your case the Binding Delta is near flat at -0.5mm.
Im not familiar with those boots but on my Gripwalk boots there is a flat plate that interfaces to the AFD and sets the binding ramp in a consistent way and not impacted by rubber sole wear.
Here is a photo of a grip walk base plate for reference showing the orange hard plastic bit that actually sits on the AFD.
Replaceable if you can find a replacement part.....
You'd think that they would be readily available online but alas no. Hopefully a ski shop will have one in Obergurgl as mine are falling apart. Fischer Ranger One's.
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@snowheid, not sure I follow you 100% but the binding delta should be measured with the boot clipped in and from the part of the grip walk sole that interfaces to the Binding AFD at the point directly under the heel of the boot and the toe. The Gripwalk "plates" for lack of better word are usually recessed a bit to protect them from wear. You may need to remeasure and see if you can get to the interface.
I binned my gripwalk soles as not compatible with all my alpine bindings
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Is there any technical danger if the grip walk bits are completely falling apart?
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