…
we need (a) better teaching of how to use that tool and (b) a bit more commitment to the learning process for those new to the sport. What we don't need is to skip the basics and start with even more challenging tools, because sure as eggs is eggs people will struggle more with the challenge.
Can’t argue with a) and b).
I might add, c) closer monitoring of outcomes by the instructors’ regulator and d) monitoring the regulator with KPIs
It seems the regulator just wants fast skiers who can do the Eurotest in under 12 parsecs! But meh to the punters coming out of their (1 week?) system without being able to do OK parallel turns.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
AL9000 wrote:
It seems the regulator just wants fast skiers who can do the Eurotest in under 12 parsecs! But meh to the punters coming out of their (1 week?) system without being able to do OK parallel turns.
They don't really act as regulators, but you make a good point.
Then when/if you start teaching, start with the vid below and follow Deb.
That video with the garland edging drills was not for beginners, and there's no way that someone in their first week of skiing would be able to do garlands like that. This is a video from Deb Armstrong for beginners. I think it's a terrible lesson, illustrating the concerns that I've expressed in several posts in this thread, but it shows the place of a snowplough turn as a central part of the progression for beginners. Maybe following Deb is not always good advice.
Or maybe it’s merely a case of lack of practice? Highly plausible for a 1 week a year skier.
Usually precisely the opposite. It is due to lots of inappropriate practise. Most holiday beginners will only have lessons for 2 or 3 hours a day and what they do the rest of the day will determine if they progress to parallel or ingrain a defensive plough. Even if the instructor details exactly which runs are appropriate to practise on, the majority will not follow this as they will be dragged around the rest of the hill by friends or family or they cannot resist the urge to explore or test themselves as they have bought a lift pass that covers hundreds of km and don't want to do the same 1km green run over and over again.
Meanwhile the OP person is wondering what have I gotten myself into thinking a season training to become a ski instructor will be brilliant
Heck even though I have a whopping 14 days of skiing under my how do I actually go from plough to parallel or just send it and do the straight to parallel thingy .......
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Well we've gone through 5 pages already and the only consensus so far is that the hardest thing to learn in skiing is the snowplough and when to use it... will deffo need more than 12 weeks.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
It is due to lots of inappropriate practise. Most holiday beginners will only have lessons for 2 or 3 hours a day and what they do the rest of the day will determine if they progress to parallel or ingrain a defensive plough. Even if the instructor details exactly which runs are appropriate to practise on, the majority will not follow this ...
Probably. Blaming the students for being human doesn't deal with the problem though.
Back on the OP, BASI at least are pretty clear on their "level one" course, which takes 4 days and costs a few hundred quid. Working back, that leaves the OP with 13 weeks of Canadian lessons on skiing and pedagogy, plus the two she has already completed. Here's BASI's pre-requisites, so this is what the OP needs by the end of week 13 of the Canadian training (my red):
Be able to ski parallel confidently, coping with a variety of conditions
Be able to ski parallel on red runs, making rhythmical short turns at a steady pace
Be able to ski parallel long turns on a green or easy blue slope with the skis carving the last two thirds of the turn
Minimum age 16 years old
It is recommended that applicants have completed at least 16 full weeks of skiing
There's also some additional online stuff which you have to do before the grading itself, but let's assume those can be done in parallel.
13 weeks of training in Canada don't meet that. I was well beyond those criteria when I first got to snow because I skied a lot on dry slopes.
That would be my suggestion - ride the plastic or equivalent every day until you can do it backwards (literally), then you'll be good.
<laughs> you could even take some lessons if you want to learn snowploughing too, although it's not mentioned above.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
AL9000 wrote:
Maybe ask them if they’d like to be able to parallel ski? Vast majority would like to I think.
Would like to ski parallel and being motivated enough to spend lots of time and money on good quality lessons while their friends are blasting about the mountain having fun (and not caring that they are skiing badly) are two very different things. I honestly believe most holiday skiers might say they'd like to get better, but are fairly happy where they are, and will never do what it takes to get better.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@philwig, I'd probably done about that when I did my IASI L1 a few years ago.
I did the pre-L1 course which @skimottaret and @rob@rar offer and a chunk of that was spent practising good snowploughs. Not only did it make that part of the full L1 course easier for me than it was for some others on the course, I found that the heel-slide that had plagued my parallel turns vanished. For the first time I was able to 'feel' the rotation coming from the hip socket during the snowplough and translate this up to faster, more dynamic parallel turns.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@rob@rar, I watched the video and at the start, I kept wondering what the importance of Tuesday was.....until it finally sunk in.
Tuesday is a name - Who knew. Only in America!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Old Fartbag wrote:
@rob@rar, I watched the video and at the start, I kept wondering what the importance of Tuesday was.....until it finally sunk in.
Tuesday is a name - Who knew. Only in America!
I would love to know if she has a brother called Thursday.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Tom Doc wrote:
AL9000 wrote:
Maybe ask them if they’d like to be able to parallel ski? Vast majority would like to I think.
Would like to ski parallel and being motivated enough to spend lots of time and money on good quality lessons while their friends are blasting about the mountain having fun (and not caring that they are skiing badly) are two very different things. I honestly believe most holiday skiers might say they'd like to get better, but are fairly happy where they are, and will never do what it takes to get better.
That about sums it up. Maybe there ought to be 2 learning streams available...
A) One where your taught fundamentals at the start that will enable you to progress steadily, with ongoing lessons and practice, until your an a good skier.
B) Another that'll get you, after 5x 1/2 days lessons, to the point where you can get around the mountain with skis on your feet and be able to then engrain a whole load of bad habits without the need for more lessons.
Seems to me A is what ski schools/instructors aim for but B is what most "skiers" do despite instructors efforts. Of course B leads to C.
C) Realise you can't ski and spend a small fortune on instruction getting rid of all those bad habits you've engrained while blaming it on the teaching system.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
@rob@rar, I watched the video and at the start, I kept wondering what the importance of Tuesday was.....until it finally sunk in.
Tuesday is a name - Who knew. Only in America!
I would love to know if she has a brother called Thursday.
Can you imagine Christmas with all the family - Tuesday is going to Thursday on Friday; but Monday can't come until Saturday, when she is being picked up by Sunday.
It would be like something from the film Aeroplane.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
adithorp wrote:
... Maybe there ought to be 2 learning streams available...
A) One where your taught fundamentals at the start that will enable you to progress steadily, with ongoing lessons and practice, until your an a good skier.
B) Another that'll get you, after 5x 1/2 days lessons, to the point where you can get around the mountain with skis on your feet and be able to then engrain a whole load of bad habits without the need for more lessons.
Seems to me A is what ski schools/instructors aim for but B is what most "skiers" do despite instructors efforts. Of course B leads to C.
C) Realise you can't ski and spend a small fortune on instruction getting rid of all those bad habits you've engrained while blaming it on the teaching system.
It's a real dilemma. From personal experience as a learner and as a teacher of the three different options you suggest I know what works in terms of helping a skier to acquire the skills which will enable them to ski all the mountain and be a solid foundation for further improvements, but I am conscious that the discipline required to develop skiing in that way can be off-putting to the skier who just wants to have a bit of fun while on holiday. That's not to say that good ski lessons can't be enjoyable, I hope that they are. But there's no doubt that a couple of private lessons or a week of group lessons is a different kind of experience to a ski holiday without the constraints of lesson times and your decision on what to ski mostly being taken by somebody else. So getting the balance right between A) and B) without running the risk of making C) inevitable, is not easy and will vary from person to person. I guess that with Inside Out's clients we are fortunate in that the majority of people who book with us naturally fall in to camp A) so we can spend more time developing fundamentals and think about longer term skier development than might be possible in a different kind of ski school, but even so, when I do use, for example, a snow plough drill with an experienced skier I do so with some trepidation.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
That's not to say that good ski lessons can't be enjoyable, I hope that they are.
People vary so much - and our attitudes to learning are probably quite deeply ingrained by the time we're adults. I like "lessons" and have enjoyed just about all the ski lessons I've done. I've also enjoyed learning to sail, learning to navigate, learning to play the flute, learning to speak languages etc. With a good teacher, I'd find learning almost anything enjoyable (which doesn't mean to say I get good at any of those things, just that I enjoy the process - I'm no perfectionist). But anyone spending a lot of money on three months intensive ski training is probably pretty serious about it, and someone who enjoys learning. If they are also athletic/well coordinated they could, as many people have said, make huge strides in three months. I once had a visitor who had never seen snow, let alone skied on it, and who cut loose and did his own thing after being bored rigid the first day of group lessons. By the end of the week he could ski backwards under good control and ski on one leg down a gentle slope. He was short, slim, athletic and with fantastic reflexes (very high level cricketer, wicket keeper). After less than a month, let alone three, he would certainly have skied me off the mountain, without taking a single lesson. Having skied for 20 years no more makes you good at it than having held a driving licence for 20 years makes you a good driver. Shame the OP hasn't stuck around to read our pearls of wisdom.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
C) Realise you can't ski and spend a small fortune on instruction getting rid of all those bad habits you've engrained while blaming it on the teaching system.
Harsh, but a fair point
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
adithorp wrote:
Tom Doc wrote:
AL9000 wrote:
Maybe ask them if they’d like to be able to parallel ski? Vast majority would like to I think.
Would like to ski parallel and being motivated enough to spend lots of time and money on good quality lessons while their friends are blasting about the mountain having fun (and not caring that they are skiing badly) are two very different things. I honestly believe most holiday skiers might say they'd like to get better, but are fairly happy where they are, and will never do what it takes to get better.
That about sums it up. Maybe there ought to be 2 learning streams available...
A) One where your taught fundamentals at the start that will enable you to progress steadily, with ongoing lessons and practice, until your an a good skier.
B) Another that'll get you, after 5x 1/2 days lessons, to the point where you can get around the mountain with skis on your feet and be able to then engrain a whole load of bad habits without the need for more lessons.
Seems to me A is what ski schools/instructors aim for but B is what most "skiers" do despite instructors efforts. Of course B leads to C.
C) Realise you can't ski and spend a small fortune on instruction getting rid of all those bad habits you've engrained while blaming it on the teaching system.
I've said it before, there comes a point where improving technique just isn't worth the hassle. If you can ski everything at an ok standard and enjoy yourself why bother. You are likely going to have to spend lots of time and money to make pretty small improvement gains. If your goal isn't making an Olympic team you will probably have more fun skiing fun terrain with friends than perfecting snow plough.
This thread has examples of good skiers failing their instructor course because they couldn't perform a good enough snow plow. I've sat on a chair with an instructor who was pointing out a skiers poor technique, unbeknown to him the skier was Logan pehota who went on to win a stage on the world freeride tour that winter. The idea that there is a perfect technique is just not realistic anymore. We see it in other sports, plenty of people with unorthodox technique succeeding. Too many biological variables and degrees of freedom in movement.
I've said it before, there comes a point where improving technique just isn't worth the hassle. If you can ski everything at an ok standard and enjoy yourself why bother. You are likely going to have to spend lots of time and money to make pretty small improvement gains. If your goal isn't making an Olympic team you will probably have more fun skiing fun terrain with friends than perfecting snow plough.
This thread has examples of good skiers failing their instructor course because they couldn't perform a good enough snow plow. I've sat on a chair with an instructor who was pointing out a skiers poor technique, unbeknown to him the skier was Logan pehota who went on to win a stage on the world freeride tour that winter. The idea that there is a perfect technique is just not realistic anymore. We see it in other sports, plenty of people with unorthodox technique succeeding. Too many biological variables and degrees of freedom in movement.
Completely agree. The point of investing in getting better (in whatever way you choose) is to have more fun. If you're happy with the skiing that you currently do, and don't particularly enjoy the process of getting better, why invest that effort?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar wrote:
Completely agree. The point of investing in getting better (in whatever way you choose) is to have more fun. If you're happy with the skiing that you currently do, and don't particularly enjoy the process of getting better, why invest that effort?
The problem is, the only way to actually know just how much more fun there is to be gained from getting better - is to get better.
@boarder2020 Good story. Watching people make the wrong assumptions can be funny.
I try to avoid doing that... well, I make the assumptions, but try not to act on them until I'm sure they're correct.
boarder2020 wrote:
...The idea that there is a perfect technique is just not realistic anymore.
On that specific though, an error would be to conclude that a particular ski school "orthodoxy" is "correct" or "perfect",
rather than simply being the style of skiing they happen to teach this year. No one here is making that error.
L4 people at least ride the same as everyone else when they're off the click.
"Perfection" is obviously not attainable, but personally I'm always striving to improve, every run, every day,
I want to do it better than the last. That's not because it's a race, it's because if I'm going to do it, then I may
as well do it the best way I can. I'm not happy with "imperfect"!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
I'm not happy with "imperfect"!
I'm perfectly OK with imperfect - in most realms of life - but I also enjoy improving things. As you get older one benefit of decent technique is getting less knackered - your legs soon tell you when you've lost the plot and some of us need an instructor to get us back on track. I'm a sailor and have a rough idea of, say, headsail trimming - using the main controls. I very rarely race, but I'm sure I'd enjoy a session with someone coaching me how to get it just right. And sometimes I'd bother, and sometimes I'd just sit with a coffee and watch the sea go by.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
…
the only way to actually know just how much more fun there is to be gained from getting better - is to get better.
+1
Well said.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
boarder2020 wrote:
I've sat on a chair with an instructor who was pointing out a skiers poor technique, unbeknown to him the skier was Logan pehota who went on to win a stage on the world freeride tour that winter.
Nice - Eric's son presumably?
I've heard of someone on a chair with Daron Rahlves on the freeride skis he designed and RedBull helmet, hearing a punter on the other side telling him that his skis were too fat and he should try the "race" skis that the punter himself was using
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I should add my way of viewing this is from an academic side as I used to work in human movement science including a lot of technique analysis stuff for athletes. I'm sure as coaches/instructors you may see things differently.
I can give you an example of a friend who is actually a level 2 Canadian instructor. Technically very good, beautiful to watch carving a piste. Get her off piste into some steeps or trees and she becomes very average in terms of performance. She simply I flexible enough to adapt the technique she has for more challenging terrain (and to be fair confidence is also an issue).
Its something we see in the scientific literature. Ask a beginner to perform a movement and they will have huge variability between attempts, which is why they don't always succeed in the movement. As somebody gets good they decrease the variability, allowing for consistent performance. From good to expert level we actually see an increase in variability, this is how the best adapt their movement to the situation and provides flexibility to achieve desired outcome. It makes sense for skiing where you have to adapt to the environment, but we even see it in closed activities it's hard to identify how it's benefitting performance (e.g. piano players).
I have another friend who is probably the best skier I know personally in terms of performance (couple of fwt 2* podiums). He has a tendency to sometimes throw his upper body to initiate turns in a way which would definitely horrify some of the technique zealouts. As a movement scientist we would look at it and say as long as he can consistently achieve the desired outcome it's a suitable movement pattern. At worst it's not "efficient", but thats not that relevant to downhill skiing.
Two of the main issues I have with ski instructing are:
1. People get too bogged down with tiny specifics. Case in point snow ploughs in this thread. A perfect plough is not a prerequisite to become a great skier (we know this because some great skiers struggle to perform a "perfect" plough when they go down the instructor route). Sometimes it's better to take a step back and you will realise you are looking at a forest not a single tree.
2. The overemphasis on a "perfect"/"optimum" technique - which likely varies between instructors and organisations! It's too oversimplistic (although maybe this is necessary for teaching). Skiing performance is just putting the right pressure on the skis at the right time (yes easier said than done!). Due to the redundancy in human movement there is a near infinite combinations of body positions that with achieve this correct pressure, who's to say which is right or wrong. Thats before you are so many individual differences (muscle strength imbalances, flexibility issues, anatomical differences (e.g. limb length ratios), psychological factors (e.g. confidence) that compound the issue even further.
While I think everyone could benefit from instruction, you can have the best coaching in the world and you are not going to get "good" at skiing from 2-3 weeks per year. (You can't really get good at anything while practicing that little - it would be laughable in any other sport). For most people time on snow is a much bigger limitation for most intermediate skiers than further improving their snowplough technique in terms of overall performance.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
For most people time on snow is a much bigger limitation …
Good point.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Honestly, that's fine. There are some people that really enjoy learning and developing mastery of a skill. Just like there are some people that are more interested in a nice lunch stop than the actual skiing. People should do whatever they enjoy.
Quote:
well, I make the assumptions, but try not to act on them until I'm sure they're correct
I know a few instructors that have rubbed me and others up the wrong way a little with the constant criticisms of other skiers technique. It almost gets into a bit of a willywaving exercise about who can demonstrate their skiing expertise by finding the most faults in someone's technique, even if that person is for all intents and purposes a very good skier (and ironically much better than those pointing out the faults!).
Quote:
The problem is, the only way to actually know just how much more fun there is to be gained from getting better - is to get better
I would be the first to tell you my technique is far from perfect. However, I can ride pretty much everything with reasonable style. I just can't envision how improving my technique is going to massively make my snowboarding more enjoyable, and that's before I even consider the cost of time taking lessons, and practicing drills when I could be out enjoying powder. The exception is skinning in which I could definitely make improvements and it would almost certainly improve my touring days (an example where efficiency really makes a difference).
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
