 Poster: A snowHead
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I don't think I have ever seen two [or more] people collide badly in about 35 years of skiing. The worst collision I ever saw, and it was a nasty one, was a young lad who was race training with his father/coach miss a turn and ski into a tree.
My only accident of note was an entirely self induced bouncing down the Penken with my skis underneath me. Ruined a good pair of sallopetes and my hip 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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zikomo, fully accept I was at fault, others were fine I stopped and checked
jedster, possibly, it was a narrow piste/track and I just kept sliding, I honestly wasn't going that fast
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Obviously we all have personal reasons to believe that collisions may - or may not - be a problem on the slopes, based on personal observations.
Meanwhile, they keep happening, with varying levels of seriousness. This incident was a couple of weeks ago:
Alpine View woman dies in collision with snowboarder
http://www.recordcourier.com/news/9581316-113/tuttle-ski-heavenly-resort
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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For a bit of light relief from all this angst, here's Nick Curtis of the London Evening Standard advocating a universal "ban" of skiing ...
Nick Curtis: Taste and sense leave us when we hit the piste
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/nick-curtis-taste-and-sense-leave-us-when-we-hit-the-piste-9036646.html
| Quote: |
| But it’s not just the injuries and the waste of life that make me argue for a ban ... It’s not the terrible clothes skiers wear that makes me call for a ban either, or their evangelistic determination to convert non-piste-heads. It’s not the terrible aftertaste of Seventies culture and residual toffery that cling to the sport (mention of the resort of Klosters always brings an image of a grinning Prince Charles in salopettes and goggles to my mind. |
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 6-01-14 14:11; edited 1 time in total
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My first snowboard instructor gave me a bit of advice which i've kept with, which is "if you're going to do something that the person behind myight not expect, like traverse over from one side to the other, point where you're going to go before you do it" or if you're slowing down/stopping in an unexpected place, stick both arms out in a sort of 4 and 8 position. People will reasilse what you're planning on doing and gives them a chance to react, or at least they'll look at you and say "Whats this idiot up to" and give you a wide berth anyway.
Being in the right is all well and good but its a bit secondary when you're the centre of a tumbling ball of flying kit and bone splinters.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
My first snowboard instructor gave me a bit of advice which i've kept with, which is "if you're going to do something that the person behind myight not expect, like traverse over from one side to the other, point where you're going to go before you do it" or if you're slowing down/stopping in an unexpected place, stick both arms out in a sort of 4 and 8 position. People will reasilse what you're planning on doing and gives them a chance to react, or at least they'll look at you and say "Whats this idiot up to" and give you a wide berth anyway.
Being in the right is all well and good but its a bit secondary when you're the centre of a tumbling ball of flying kit and bone splinters. |
Great advice. Always true that taking sensible steps to protect yourself is the smart thing to do. I remain incredulous at the number of people, however, that continue to believe they have some right of way/right to overtake and it is skiers downhill of them at fault if they do something unexpected and get crashed into as a result. As you say though, small consolation being right from a hospital bed.
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Comedy Goldsmith, not just personal opinions but actual statistics as in the other less hyperbole filled thread on the same topic!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Comedy Goldsmith,
| Quote: |
| No, we must ban skiing because the Schumacher incident has become the latest excuse for the manufacture of synthetic outrage by institutions with a political axe to grind or individuals with far too much time on their hands. |
Read that bit of the article Dave?
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| Read that bit of the article Dave? |
Yes I have. As you know, I have less and less time on my hands.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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No weird, metallic aftertaste?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Well I'm amazed that anyone can ski 30 weeks without seeing a collision. I SEE one about every 3 weeks of skiing. |
I am equally amazed at how often you — and others — see collisions. Perhaps it does depend, as suggested above, on where you ski.
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Saul said he kicked out his tail and sprayed some snow on a sign on his way down the slope, not thinking anything of it. A mountain safety employee flagged him down, lectured him on damaging signs and gave him an infraction card
mmm - is that reall the answer though? No issue with keeping an eye on safety / speed / etc. - but that is ridiculous...
Alasdair
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You know it makes sense.
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Friend had his pass confiscated for the remainder of the day in a Colorado resort a couple of seasons ago for skiing too fast.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Comedy Goldsmith, re Vail,
"Just ask local snowboarder Jared Saul, who got handed a yellow warning card in December near the Lionshead skier bridge. Saul said he kicked out his tail and sprayed some snow on a sign on his way down the slope, not thinking anything of it. A mountain safety employee flagged him down, lectured him on damaging signs and gave him an infraction card. Saul said he was polite and didn’t realize he’d broken any rules, but the experience left him a little ruffled."
Without wanting to be toooo facetious, I am surprised that Vail Resorts installs signs that can be damaged by snow? Sure, it's manually propelled, but if you stop to consider the physics, it's going to be no denser than hail and no faster than a good storm would propel said hail. Nevermind hail anyway, a single snowboarder's spray will have far less effect I'd imagine than a 24hour snow storm.
There's a scoop for you, "Vail Resort closed because a little wind and snow broke all our signs"... 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
a single snowboarder's spray will have far less effect, I'd imagine, than a 24hour snow storm
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I don't know - my people have a strange and powerful musk...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Zero_G wrote: |
| I am equally amazed at how often you — and others — see collisions. Perhaps it does depend, as suggested above, on where you ski. |
Same. I snowboard at a quiet, smaller French resort populated largely by pretty able locals of varying nationalities and very few adult learners. I've been on the hill for 4 days on almost entirely blue pistes this season, and have seen just the one collision. I've had a few near misses traversing the narrow access runs to lifts, but I appreciate that I am a pain to be stuck behind because I swap edges a lot due to not being comfortable with flatbasing at speed. I expect to have to avoid people sometimes and would consider it almost entirely my fault if I collided with someone in that situation.
Some people moan about the blind spot on a snowboard, but I consider it an advantage. I like being able to keep an eye on what's going on behind me, it helps me to make sure I'm easy to pass and safely out of the way.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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No. I'm not clarifying anything. Its retarded. No one ever in the history of winter alpine sports has ever thought that it is not the right of people down the hill to expect those up the hill to avoid them.
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
| No. I'm not clarifying anything. Its retarded. No one ever in the history of winter alpine sports has ever thought that it is not the right of people down the hill to expect those up the hill to avoid them. |
Then apologies, I (and others) have misinterpreted your words.
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I'm struggling to reconcile
| eddiethebus wrote: |
| No one ever in the history of winter alpine sports has ever thought that it is not the right of people down the hill to expect those up the hill to avoid them. |
with
| eddiethebus wrote: |
| thinks that because they are "down the hill" everyone "up the hill" will have to avoid them |
but definitely do not take issue with eddie's latest post.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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what is it with people taking part of a sentace and using it as a complete quote 
yes. I do believe that people down the piste should, and in most cases do have to behave in a courteous manner. People who believe that they can essentially do what they want and people coming down will some how just magically avoid them are deluded.
Yes of course you have the right to expect faster users to avoid you, but at the same time you wouldnt just pull a car out into a lane of moving traffic and expect everyone to just be able to stop.
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And the code does also give specific advise to the stationary skier on how to start moving again or how to join a piste. And it's the same with stopping below a crest where you may be hidden, especially if you are wearing white, it's still up to the uphill skier to avoid you but not really very sensible on your behalf.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
what is it with people taking part of a sentace and using it as a complete quote
yes. I do believe that people down the piste should, and in most cases do have to behave in a courteous manner. People who believe that they can essentially do what they want and people coming down will some how just magically avoid them are deluded.
Yes of course you have the right to expect faster users to avoid you, but at the same time you wouldnt just pull a car out into a lane of moving traffic and expect everyone to just be able to stop. |
Ok Eddie, so that we don't misquote or misunderstand you, can you give me an example of one or two things that a downslope skier already on the piste and moving might do that is not acceptable to all of us. At the moment I can't think of anything, which is why I still am unconvinced, but I am willing to. Hange my mind for stood example ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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okay - different scenario...
skier on skis (skinning?) coming up the middle of a main groomed piste
skier coming down
who gives way?!
several skiers doing this while we were in 3v before Christmas - obviously I gave way while coming down - but do the same rules still really apply?
and why did they insist on coming up the centre of the piste?!
Alasdair
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Was at Hemel this morning with Little Miss sev112.
Snow in nice condition, busy but not too busy,
I asked my daughter (who has ski'd 6 or 7 week long trips now) what she remembered from her instructors about rules of skiing; she was really good ; I did reiterate her responsibility as an uphill skier, and she was really good when on the slope.
Worst offender while we were there was a 12ish year old blue run monster in a lovely (?) red all in 1 poivre blanc suit (with the nice needlework on the back!) who varied between straight lining it or avoiding anyone slower. Lovely behaviour when his mate crashed within 10 metres of the top and he skid into him on the floor at full speed, and then ski'd off when ski patrol went to have a word with him.
Disappointing to see - i couldnt locate an obvious parent to speak to. At least ski patrol did manage to have a word and calm him down after I spoke to them.
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You know it makes sense.
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sev112, I think that what may be being said is that whilst it is the responsibility of the uphill skier to avoid collisions, if, for example, I had skied most of a busy piste towards one side making uniform turns then suddenly decide to head to the opposite side to rest and therefore turn 90 degrees at speed and shot across, whilst totally within my rights as the downhill skier that would probably increase the risk of a collision for the large number of people coming down greatly, not just to myself but to other skiers, imagine 10 people at once all taking avoiding action.
Unfortunately, on crowded slopes you need to make sure that you are not within range of one sudden turn, but of many simultaneously. To reduce the risk completely would need a ban on overtaking anyone beyond quite a slow skier.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| sev112 wrote: |
| eddiethebus wrote: |
what is it with people taking part of a sentace and using it as a complete quote
yes. I do believe that people down the piste should, and in most cases do have to behave in a courteous manner. People who believe that they can essentially do what they want and people coming down will some how just magically avoid them are deluded.
Yes of course you have the right to expect faster users to avoid you, but at the same time you wouldnt just pull a car out into a lane of moving traffic and expect everyone to just be able to stop. |
Ok Eddie, so that we don't misquote or misunderstand you, can you give me an example of one or two things that a downslope skier already on the piste and moving might do that is not acceptable to all of us. At the moment I can't think of anything, which is why I still am unconvinced, but I am willing to. Hange my mind for stood example ? |
really?! you cant think of anything, not one single thing that you could do as a skiier that might put you in danger of collision with someone coming down behind you?!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I didn't think that I had selectively posted 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The blind crest one is a good example. It is incredibly stupid to stand anywhere where you are unsighted. It is incredibly stupid to ski or board fast over a blind crest, where you have no idea what is over the other side of it. The difference is that if you injure someone or worse by coming over a blind crest and smashing into them you are criminally liable. That does not excuse people stopping in such stupid places, the rule is there to protect people who might have fallen or even who are helping other skiers who have had an accident. I have seen this happen and it is not pretty, skier wiped out while aiding an injured skier by some idiot assuming they have the right to go as fast as they like and it is up to others to make sure they don't get in the way.
I think I have been clear, eddie simply will not accept it is a fact that people ARE allowed to do essentially what they want and it IS up to people coming downhill to avoid them. In all but the most extreme cases of someone skiing blindly out of some trees directly into the path (and even then, anyone with any sense/experience is looking for areas where this might happen and choosing as safe a course as possible) of you, it is up to the skier uphill to avoid the skier downhill. Courtesy os one thing, responsibility is another. If I let your car out at a junction that is courteous, it does not mean that you are entitled or that I have any responsibility to do so.
Anyway, I tried to be nice and apologised for any misinterpretation. Only to see Eddiethebus state again that people down the piste should be courteous and it is deluded to expect those above (who by default are actually looking in the right direction) have the absolute responsibility to avoid them regardless of what stupid things they may do (again read the rules, which refer to ANY voluntary or involuntary movement). Just hope to never find myself on the same piste as anyone who maintains such an indefensible position.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Freddie Paellahead wrote: |
| I didn't think that I had selectively posted |
you didn't, you were clear and fair
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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eddiethebus, I also ski at a reasonable pace if the pistes are empty, but modify according to crowdedness and also the style of the skiers below me - it's akin to looking at the style of other drivers - this one looks like a learner, this one looks timid so might be scared into doing something unexpected.
I also agree with you that the downhill skier has responsibilities - and these are covered in the FIS rules - ski courteously, rejoin the piste with care, restart with care - but ultimately, if I am going past somebody who is already on the piste, avoiding a collision is my responsibility.
I am going to do a Boris now and confess to the one time that I have collided and it was my fault (IMHO) because I failed to anticpate a skier below me deciding to make a turn and stop; I ended up giving her a "cuddle" but she berated me (in French) and I had to agree with her. I was mortified
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
| sev112 wrote: |
| eddiethebus wrote: |
what is it with people taking part of a sentace and using it as a complete quote
yes. I do believe that people down the piste should, and in most cases do have to behave in a courteous manner. People who believe that they can essentially do what they want and people coming down will some how just magically avoid them are deluded.
Yes of course you have the right to expect faster users to avoid you, but at the same time you wouldnt just pull a car out into a lane of moving traffic and expect everyone to just be able to stop. |
Ok Eddie, so that we don't misquote or misunderstand you, can you give me an example of one or two things that a downslope skier already on the piste and moving might do that is not acceptable to all of us. At the moment I can't think of anything, which is why I still am unconvinced, but I am willing to. Hange my mind for stood example ? |
really?! you cant think of anything, not one single thing that you could do as a skiier that might put you in danger of collision with someone coming down behind you?! |
We can all think of examples of things that would increase the risk of a collision, any sudden movement or turn would do it. The responsibility is still with the uphill skier/boarder. In fact you make the point very well, there are lots of things that can happen to increase the risk of collision which is why the responsibility is placed so heavily on the uphill skier to allow for (and I don't know how many times I can repeat this) ANY VOLUNTARY OR INVOLUNATRY MOVEMENT.
Clearer the risk is also greater if Eddiethebus is behind you.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| zikomo wrote: |
The blind crest one is a good example. It is incredibly stupid to stand anywhere where you are unsighted. It is incredibly stupid to ski or board fast over a blind crest, where you have no idea what is over the other side of it. The difference is that if you injure someone or worse by coming over a blind crest and smashing into them you are criminally liable. That does not excuse people stopping in such stupid places, the rule is there to protect people who might have fallen or even who are helping other skiers who have had an accident. I have seen this happen and it is not pretty, skier wiped out while aiding an injured skier by some idiot assuming they have the right to go as fast as they like and it is up to others to make sure they don't get in the way.
I think I have been clear, eddie simply will not accept it is a fact that people ARE allowed to do essentially what they want and it IS up to people coming downhill to avoid them. In all but the most extreme cases of someone skiing blindly out of some trees directly into the path (and even then, anyone with any sense/experience is looking for areas where this might happen and choosing as safe a course as possible) of you, it is up to the skier uphill to avoid the skier downhill. Courtesy os one thing, responsibility is another. If I let your car out at a junction that is courteous, it does not mean that you are entitled or that I have any responsibility to do so.
Anyway, I tried to be nice and apologised for any misinterpretation. Only to see Eddiethebus state again that people down the piste should be courteous and it is deluded to expect those above (who by default are actually looking in the right direction) have the absolute responsibility to avoid them regardless of what stupid things they may do (again read the rules, which refer to ANY voluntary or involuntary movement). Just hope to never find myself on the same piste as anyone who maintains such an indefensible position. |
I do accept that it is people on the upslope that have responsibility, i'm not sure where you get this idea that i dont. Do you think i somehow ride down a slope with an air horn screeming get out my way, ploughing down small children and the weak?!
as for:
"Only to see Eddiethebus state again that people down the piste should be courteous" why the hell not?!?
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
| sev112 wrote: |
| eddiethebus wrote: |
what is it with people taking part of a sentace and using it as a complete quote
yes. I do believe that people down the piste should, and in most cases do have to behave in a courteous manner. People who believe that they can essentially do what they want and people coming down will some how just magically avoid them are deluded.
Yes of course you have the right to expect faster users to avoid you, but at the same time you wouldnt just pull a car out into a lane of moving traffic and expect everyone to just be able to stop. |
Ok Eddie, so that we don't misquote or misunderstand you, can you give me an example of one or two things that a downslope skier already on the piste and moving might do that is not acceptable to all of us. At the moment I can't think of anything, which is why I still am unconvinced, but I am willing to. Hange my mind for stood example ? |
really?! you cant think of anything, not one single thing that you could do as a skiier that might put you in danger of collision with someone coming down behind you?! |
Eddie mate, that was my attempt at a sensible discussion, and no, I can't think of something , hence I asked because there might be something I am or might be doing - hence another nice question - please let me know what you think I should not be doing as a downhill skier - honestly. Don't think that I am flaming you because I asked for an example
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in a road accident there is a general acceptance that car A running into the back of car B is always in the wrong (same principle as the skiing discussion) - however in law that is not strictly accurate and if car B in front does anything to cause the accident / add to the cause of it etc. then they can share / hold liability...
I suspect that in a legal case the same could apply in skiing - irrelevant of FIS guidelines...
so...
skier A (uphill) comes straight down and into skiier B who was skiing normally - skier A is likely to liable
skier A (uphill) comes down in control / cautiously and needs to pass skier B - is careful about waiting for skier B to turn away and chooses to go behind skier B - but skier B is skiing above competence level / too steep a slope / being silly / ... / etc. and reacts in a non-predictable manner and takes out skier A - then at simplest it is an accident - at more complex, fault may sit with skier B (downhill) as well as skier A - or instead of skier A...
it is all very well to say that the uphill skier should always give way - but it is reasonable for them to overtake as well and all skiers need to take responsibility for their own actions - it is not sufficient to just say that they are the downhill skier and therefore in the right irrespective of own actions etc.
I suspect that a good lawyer in such a situation could demonstrate that responsibility lies with skier B - however the issue my well be in proving responsibility / evidence - it is easy to say who is uphill / downhill, it is not easy to say who is skiing responsibly - I am sure that the increase in videoing will result in some interesting cases in the future...
Alasdair
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| zikomo wrote: |
Clearer the risk is also greater if Eddiethebus is behind you. |
yeah, if you like. pretty sure my no claims discount on snow would be greater than yours 
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| sev112 wrote: |
| eddiethebus wrote: |
| [Stuff] |
Eddie mate, that was my attempt at a sensible discussion, and no, I can't think of something , hence I asked because there might be something I am or might be doing - hence another nice question - please let me know what you think I should not be doing as a downhill skier - honestly. Don't think that I am flaming you because I asked for an example |
Really? What about:
| Avalanche Poodle wrote: |
sev112, I think that what may be being said is that whilst it is the responsibility of the uphill skier to avoid collisions, if, for example, I had skied most of a busy piste towards one side making uniform turns then suddenly decide to head to the opposite side to rest and therefore turn 90 degrees at speed and shot across, whilst totally within my rights as the downhill skier that would probably increase the risk of a collision for the large number of people coming down greatly, not just to myself but to other skiers, imagine 10 people at once all taking avoiding action.
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I accept that ultimately it is the uphill skier's responsibility - however there are things that the downhill skier could (arguably should) be doing to make everybody's life easier, particularly on crowded pistes.
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FAQ
you're on form today. But I didn't get the 'metallic aftertaste' jab 