 Poster: A snowHead
|
| clarky999 wrote: |
If you want to get into specifics, we were NOT talking about Japanese offpiste, we were talking about INBOUNDS UNGROOMED terrain. Totally different to what most of this euro-centric forum consider offpiste. |
Yes, that's the whole point. Did you read the data from Mike Pow above? Do you respect the view of the Niseko guide that avalanche kit isn't needed on that terrain ... or are you the expert?
| clarky999 wrote: |
Can you find anyone, literally ANYONE, with a good amount of snow science/avalanche safety/snow craft knowledge who agrees with you? |
I'm not looking for someone who agrees with me. I just ski off-piste with others who may or may not (usually the latter) use avalanche kit.
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Wilfully flouting common safety practise is another entirely. |
If you're so sure about that, why is this kitting-up not a condition of sale of ski lift tickets? Are you aware of how many people die in avalanches, with all the gear on, being led by guides? Do you realise how much commercial-professional pressure guides are under to take risks with clients? It's not nearly as straightforward as you make out.
| clarky999 wrote: |
You yourself have lost a friend in an avalanche, have set one off yourself, and admit that to this day your decision-making offpiste is of low quality. So frankly (assuming you still actually ski), I don't trust at all in your 'experience and ability' to not set one off again - and who knows who else, other than yourself, that might endanger. People below, your own group, rescue services, etc. |
Yes, and there are laws which require you not to endanger others on mountains (especially by setting off avalanches) ... but there are no laws (except, as you say, in very limited geographical areas) demanding that you ski with avalanche kit. This is just you pontificating, without respect to democratic freedoms and laws.
| clarky999 wrote: |
I think you're a dinosaur. Out of date and out of touch. |
Well, you're obviously wrong. The dinosaurs were entirely wiped out by avalanches of meteorites some millions of years ago.
You were doing quite well, up to that point.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 22-12-13 11:55; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Johnor wrote: |
IMO CG chooses not to ski with avi gear which is his prerogative and I don't have a problem with this - I understand this may be difficult to understand for some |
If the risks and responsibilities could be isolated to just CG then I wouldn't have a problem but, by is own admission, he's out there making poor decisions that may impact others. There are many like him, of course, but most grow through experience and buy the kit sooner or later.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
If you want to get into specifics, we were NOT talking about Japanese offpiste, we were talking about INBOUNDS UNGROOMED terrain. Totally different to what most of this euro-centric forum consider offpiste. |
Yes, that's the whole point. Did you read the data from Mike Pow above? Do you respect the view of the Niseko guide that avalanche kit isn't needed on that terrain ... or are you the expert?
| clarky999 wrote: |
Can you find anyone, literally ANYONE, with a good amount of snow science/avalanche safety/snow craft knowledge who agrees with you? |
I'm not looking for someone who agrees with me. I just ski off-piste with others who may or may not (usually the latter) use avalanche kit.
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Wilfully flouting common safety practise is another entirely. |
If you're so sure about that, why is this kitting-up not a condition of sale of ski lift tickets? Are you aware of how many people die in avalanches, with all the gear on, being led by guides? Do you realise how much commercial-professional pressure guides are under to take risks with clients? It's not nearly as straightforward as you make out.
| clarky999 wrote: |
You yourself have lost a friend in an avalanche, have set one off yourself, and admit that to this day your decision-making offpiste is of low quality. So frankly (assuming you still actually ski), I don't trust at all in your 'experience and ability' to not set one off again - and who knows who else, other than yourself, that might endanger. People below, your own group, rescue services, etc. |
Yes, and there are laws which require you not to endanger others on mountains (especially by setting off avalanches) ... but there are no laws (except, as you say, in very limited geographical areas) demanding that you ski with avalanche kit. This is just you pontificating, without respect to democratic freedoms and laws.
| clarky999 wrote: |
I think you're a dinosaur. Out of date and out of touch. |
Well, you're obviously wrong. The dinosaurs were entirely wiped out by avalanches of meteorites some millions of years ago.
You were doing quite well, up to that point. |
Quite the most pathetic set of rebuttals I've ever seen. Do you ever ski off-piste (without the kit) with people who have more knowledge and experience than you? Or is it just you being witless and kit less all on your own?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Listen to Pontificating PJSki, all kitted up to take SCGB members and non-members off-piste ... but without any recognised qualification to do so. Reminder: three separate members/non-members of SCGB have died in off-piste skiing incidents since the mid-1980s. There has been repeated litigation from people injured in other incidents. The French authorities, not surprisingly (in places like Les Arcs), are questioning whether these 'leaders' (significantly less trained than BASI-qualified ski instructors) should be doing this stuff. The SCGB has not been allowed to represent itself in St Anton for decades, perhaps for related reasons.
Hark, here's PJSki (Gerry Aitken) promoting a video of "Crazy Backcountry Skiing between Trees" by Candide Thovex (without a word of warning, as per previous SCGB championing of this character) ...
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/membersonly/snowtalk/discussion.aspx/Skiing-general?discussionID=14615#.UrbGJ_vUbIg
Pure Russian roulette skiing. Not so much "crazy" as "clearly suicidal". Not a problem for me, personally. He can do what he likes, and be videoed as he wishes. But it's not something I'd promote, personally.
Candide Thovex was recently featured, again uncritically by the SCGB, performing a 'human slalom' down a draglift - using the ascending riders as slalom poles. He could easily have taken somebody's leg out, or killed them.
Enough, already!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
If you want to get into specifics, we were NOT talking about Japanese offpiste, we were talking about INBOUNDS UNGROOMED terrain. Totally different to what most of this euro-centric forum consider offpiste. |
Yes, that's the whole point. Did you read the data from Mike Pow above? Do you respect the view of the Niseko guide that avalanche kit isn't needed on that terrain ... or are you the expert? |
I haven't yet skied it so can't say for sure, but as it's secured from avalanches then a transciever shouldn't be neccessary.
You are changing the goalposts though; you are quite aware that once the conversation got started we were talking about offpiste in general and not just the secured japanese variety.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
clarky999, don't feed the troll... it's not worth it, however much a blight.
All CG is doing now is trying to get a rise and make this topic more about him again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Wilfully flouting common safety practise is another entirely. |
If you're so sure about that, why is this kitting-up not a condition of sale of ski lift tickets? Are you aware of how many people die in avalanches, with all the gear on, being led by guides? Do you realise how much commercial-professional pressure guides are under to take risks with clients? It's not nearly as straightforward as you make out. |
Because as you are well aware, 99% of lift users are not skiing offpiste. Equally, in Europe, what happens off the secured pistes has little to do with the resort. They don't have the right to restrict access to offpiste; it's not their domain.
I'm all for protecting the freedom to ski what you want and when you want to, I just think doing so without taking all reasonable steps to mitigate risks to yourself and particularly others is reckless.
---------------
I don't know the precise numbers, but I know there are several each season.
And yes, risk is an inherent part of the game. That's why we try to mitigate it.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 22-12-13 12:51; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
meh, I know I know... But just in case someone is reading this wondering whether they should kit up, I'd rather the last words weren't CG's.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| clarky999 wrote: |
You are changing the goalposts though; you are quite aware that once the conversation got started we were talking about offpiste in general and not just the secured japanese variety. |
Well, keeping it Niseko-related ... Mike Pow said on the previous page, based on 8 years experience of the resort ...
| Quote: |
2 people have been caught in seperate avalanche incidents and suffered injuries outside the ski area boundaries after exiting through the backcountry gates. Some of the group were wearing transceivers and carrying shovel & probe ...
... 2 people have died in seperate avalanche incidents outside the ski area boundaries after touring up from the road. Both were wearing transceivers and carrying shovel & probe. |
So, what are we concluding about the frequency of fatal avalanche incidents in Niseko, per 1000 skier-days (the standard measurement) ... and the contribution of the kit to protecting those skiers?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Listen to Pontificating PJSki, all kitted up to take SCGB members and non-members off-piste ... but without any recognised qualification to do so. Reminder: three separate members/non-members of SCGB have died in off-piste skiing incidents since the mid-1980s. There has been repeated litigation from people injured in other incidents. The French authorities, not surprisingly (in places like Les Arcs), are questioning whether these 'leaders' (significantly less trained than BASI-qualified ski instructors) should be doing this stuff. The SCGB has not been allowed to represent itself in St Anton for decades, perhaps for related reasons.
|
Decades? The Ski Club was in St. Anton not all that long ago and their absence seems to be more to do with perceived competition (unfair) than anything to do with safety. Interesting that you pontificate about freedom but seek to stop a private club from doing what it does and has done for many decades. Hypocrisy? You bet and your stock in trade.
You mention three deaths while everyone else only knows about two. Did you make the third one up? But let's take the two we know about, with the first one there was a local enquiry and the rep was absolved of any blame and with the second case the rep was found not guilty in a court of law. Pretty good record and the Ski Club, its Leaders, trainers and members should feel very proud.
Also, I note that the French authorities seem to be allowing the Ski Club to continue. The idea that enthusiastic, well trained amateurs are capable of skiing/boarding off-piste without a guide seems to be accepted the world over, even by you, but except by you in the case of the Ski Club. Hypocrisy? You bet and your stock in trade.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 22-12-13 12:37; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| meh wrote: |
clarky999, don't feed the troll... it's not worth it, however much a blight.
All CG is doing now is trying to get a rise and make this topic more about him again. |
Call me a troll if you will/want. I'll continue to argue the case for freedom from the Committee of snowHeads Helmet and Avalanche Kit Pontificators.
As with helmets, kindly prove that the incidence of avalanche fatalities (fatal head trauma doesn't seem to have declined) has fallen since the advent of all this bleeper/probe/shovel/bag/phone tech.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| PJSki wrote: |
| The Ski Club was in St. Anton not all that long ago ... |
Prepare yourself to be shocked.
| PJSki wrote: |
| You mention three deaths while everyone else only knows about two. Did you make the third one up? |
No, it's mentioned in an official SCGB document ... which will not be identified.
| PJSki wrote: |
| The idea that enthusiastic, well trained amateurs are capable of skiing/boarding off-piste without a guide seems to be accepted the world over, even by you, but except by you in the case of the Ski Club. |
You must be joking. Enthusiasm is not a qualification, and I don't accept that this is sensible behaviour. It risks the future of the Club in the event of a multiple-fatality incident, which has not occurred yet but is a probability. No other national ski club does this, and therefore it's not "accepted the world over". The reality is the exact opposite.
We've been having this debate with you since 2002-4, when ultimately the discussion proved so unwelcome to the SCGB that it closed its public forum and drew in on itself again, chatting internally, while losing a grip on reality.
Are you provided with expenses-paid skiing to act as a SCGB Leader, or (as you claimed) do you "not claim expenses"? What does it mean to "not claim expenses" - i.e. what expenses are claimable?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 22-12-13 12:47; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Comedy Goldsmith, given people have attempted to explain to you the ethical and statistical benefits of taking avi gear all through this thread I don't see any benefit to my doing the same knowing it would be for naught. You are a closed minded buffoon and should get back in your clown car and tootle off. This thread was much more interesting without you trying to make it about you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
meh, it's not about me. It's specifically about Niseko. Why are you not talking about Niseko?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| The Ski Club was in St. Anton not all that long ago ... |
Prepare yourself to be shocked.
| PJSki wrote: |
| You mention three deaths while everyone else only knows about two. Did you make the third one up? |
No, it's mentioned in an official SCGB document ... which will not be identified.
| PJSki wrote: |
| The idea that enthusiastic, well trained amateurs are capable of skiing/boarding off-piste without a guide seems to be accepted the world over, even by you, but except by you in the case of the Ski Club. |
You must be joking. Enthusiasm is not a qualification, and I don't accept that this is sensible behaviour. It risks the future of the Club in the event of a multiple-fatality incident, which has not occurred yet but is a probability. No other national ski club does this, and therefore it's not "accepted the world over". The reality is the exact opposite.
We've been having this debate with you since 2002-4, when ultimately the discussion proved so unwelcome to the SCGB that it closed its public forum and drew in on itself again, chatting internally, while losing a grip on reality.
|
The hypocrisy continues. Funny how you seem to get eyes on so many 'official' Ski Club documents. I'm pretty sure the the Skeeb have adjusted their liability to allow for the worst scenario, the cost of which is a matter for them and their members and thus nothing to do with you. But why the sudden concern for the Club's future after you called for its winding up? Hypocrisy again?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| meh wrote: |
| Comedy Goldsmith, given people have attempted to explain to you the ethical and statistical benefits of taking avi gear all through this thread I don't see any benefit to my doing the same knowing it would be for naught. You are a closed minded buffoon and should get back in your clown car and tootle off. This thread was much more interesting without you trying to make it about you. |
Yes he is a closed-minded buffoon, that's exactly right.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| meh, it's not about me. It's specifically about Niseko. Why are you not talking about Niseko? |
The debate widened in scope, clearly much to your distress. There are a couple of fenced off ski areas I know of that went decades without an in bounds avalanche death until they had a few all at once. If I were going to Niseko I would take my kit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| PJSki wrote: |
| Johnor wrote: |
IMO CG chooses not to ski with avi gear which is his prerogative and I don't have a problem with this - I understand this may be difficult to understand for some |
If the risks and responsibilities could be isolated to just CG then I wouldn't have a problem but, by is own admission, he's out there making poor decisions that may impact others. There are many like him, of course, but most grow through experience and buy the kit sooner or later. |
People will make poor decisions with or without avi gear - if ski resorts make avi gear mandatory then they need to back this up with mandatory training/qualification
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Johnor wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
| Johnor wrote: |
IMO CG chooses not to ski with avi gear which is his prerogative and I don't have a problem with this - I understand this may be difficult to understand for some |
If the risks and responsibilities could be isolated to just CG then I wouldn't have a problem but, by is own admission, he's out there making poor decisions that may impact others. There are many like him, of course, but most grow through experience and buy the kit sooner or later. |
People will make poor decisions with or without avi gear - if ski resorts make avi gear mandatory then they need to back this up with mandatory training/qualification |
No they don't, in my opinion. But anyway, the resorts aren't making avi gear mandatory. Danger, strawman on fire!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Johnor, the idea that anyone wants to make this kit mandatory is a straw man. All we are arguing is that it is most prudent and the best ethical decision to take protection and rescue kit with you into the mountains as it gives you and the people you travel with the best chance in the event of an accident. Yes training should be a part of that as the write ups of the recent avi in Japan show but mandatory? No. The freedom CG likes to big up comes with the requirement to actually know what you are doing which is why one of the most popular mountaineering instruction books is called 'The Freedom of the Hills'. The skills and knowledge it contains are the ones you need to travel safely in that environment.
CG is of course free to do whatever he likes and we're free to say what ignorant codswallop he is spouting. That half a dozen unrelated topics have been dragged in just demonstrates how much this is about CG and his need to be at the center of attention.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| meh, it's not about me. It's specifically about Niseko. Why are you not talking about Niseko? |
Have you skied in Niseko?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar, no I haven't skied in Niseko. That's why it's great to have contributors like Mike Pow who've been skiing there for years.
What's your take on it, now that he's revealed the low incidence of avalanche fatalities but correlation of use of avalanche kit when deaths have occurred?
Did Niseko's off-piste terrain seem mellow and comparatively unthreatening to you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm always surprised by the number of people who ski out of the gates without avy protection.. Whilst the slopes are less steep the risks of tree wells and glide cracks are significantly higher.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Timmaah, particularly out of the top gates!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| no I haven't skied in Niseko. |
So what on earth are you doing in a thread which is asking for advice specific to a resort that you've never skied? Why not save your "campaign for bad practice" for a more generic thread?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
rob@rar, this thread was never about anyone seeking advice. Have a look at the opening post - it was about a punter electing to second-guess a ski guide. The inference of Mike Pow's post, as I read it, was that the guide was right. I personally celebrate the right of different ski guides to hold different attitudes about avalanche equipment.
I thought we'd concluded that the need for avalanche kit in Niseko was significantly less than other ski areas ... especially in-bounds ... because the avalanche risk is significantly less.
As for "what on earth are you doing in a thread which is asking for advice specific to a resort that you've never skied?" ... reads more like "what are you doing discussing the Moon when you've never been there?"
Let's be reasonable here!
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Comedy Goldsmith, OK. You win. Keep on giving poor advice about a resort you've never visited. I don't care, and I suspect that the OP has long since given up reading this thread. I know what I'll do the next time I ski Niseko, and what I expect those people I'm skiing with to do.
Just on a point of professional etiquette, "inferring" advice on behalf of a professional ski instructor is bad form. Mike is more than capable of speaking for himself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Comedy Goldsmith, I think someone wants you to stop:
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
Comedy Goldsmith
Just on a point of professional etiquette, "inferring" advice on behalf of a professional ski instructor is bad form. Mike is more than capable of speaking for himself. |
I am, and I did on page 2
| Mike Pow wrote: |
To bring this back on track as I see it.
A piste is a run groomed by a machine.
Off-piste is everything else.
However and it's a big HOWEVER you have off-piste terrain within the resort area boundary and off-piste which is outside the resort area boundary.
The Niseko United ski area is more akin to N American ski areas where there are off-piste runs and areas within the resort area boundary that are either avalanche patrolled and/or skied frequently enough to minimise the risk of avalanche.
As such the wearing of a transceiver and carrying a shovel & probe is not enforced and isn't necessary IMHO.
Outside of the ski area the wearing of a transceiver and carrying a shovel & probe is not enforced but is necessary IMHO.
I've reread the OP's first post in this thread and the guide they spoke with is communicating a viewpoint shared by the majority in the Niseko area and also by the resort. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
CG. A quick bit of training for you regard one bit of the kit that you refuse to carry and use even if you were to trigger an avalanche and bury some other person .
The shovel....... It is a tool for amongst other things ... Digging.
Pay attention .... The hole you are digging for yourself on here is not the same. One is to unbury someone ( if there is such a word) ... The one you are digging is more akin to a war atrocity albeit you are both victim and executioner .
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
Just on a point of professional etiquette, "inferring" advice on behalf of a professional ski instructor is bad form. Mike is more than capable of speaking for himself. |
Come on, Rob, that's ridiculous. Of course it's perfect manners to infer something from someone else's words, provided one makes it clear (I couldn't have made it clearer) that I was inferring a meaning from the data he'd posted.
In fact, as above, he's now made it crystal clear (which I hadn't noticed) that he'd originally agreed with the Niseko guide anyway.
But you don't agree with Mike or the guide, which is fine.
| rob@rar wrote: |
| I know what I'll do the next time I ski Niseko, and what I expect those people I'm skiing with to do. |
And no reasonable person could disagree with that either.
This is about what we mutually expect, or don't expect, of those we ski with. That's all. It's not about anything else, except the national/local laws or rules of the mountain/uplift operator/ski patrol.
I would obviously ski with the Niseko guide, if that person would have me, or Mike Pow, if he'd have me, but you'd prefer to ski inbounds off-piste with others who are similarly kitted up.
All is well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
All is well. |
Yeah 
Someone emailed me this reworking of a Beatles classic:
| Quote: |
Yesterday, all Dave's troubles seemed so far away
Now it looks as though they're here to stay
Oh, Dave believes in yesterday
Suddenly, he's not half the skier he used to be
There's a wind slab hanging over he.
Oh, the avalanche came suddenly
Why he had no beacon I don't know he wouldn't say
The snow did something wrong, now he longs for yesterday
Yesterday, mountaincraft was such an easy game to play
Now he needs a body bag to hide away
Oh, Dave believes in yesterday
Why he had no beacon I don't know he wouldn't say
The snow did something wrong, now he longs for yesterday
Yesterday, mountaincraft was such an easy game to play
Now he needs a body bag to hide away
Oh, Dave believes in yesterday
Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Mike, these are interesting statistics but them seem a bit skewed without the clarifications I've mentioned below. Do you know any of this to allow us to "flesh out the picture"?
| Quote: |
To my knowledge, in the 8 winters I've been skiing the Niseko Resort Area :
0 people have died in avalanches within the ski area boundaries
|
Have there been any avalanches at all in within the ski boundaries? If yes, were people wearing beacons and carrying "the kit" or not?
| Quote: |
2 people have been caught in separate avalanche incidents and suffered injuries outside the ski area boundaries after exiting through the backcountry gates.
Some of the group were wearing transceivers and carrying shovel & probe.
|
This statement is ambiguous enough to be discounted.
| Quote: |
2 people have died in separate incidents due to asphyxiation when falling in glide cracks (huge holes) outside the ski area boundaries after exiting through the backcountry gates.
Both were wearing transceivers and carrying shovel & probe.
One, a Finnish skier was separated from his group and had passed away by the time his group did a lap to go look for him.
The other, a Japanese local, was skiing solo.
|
I've no idea about glide cracks and the effectiveness of beacons but the point I make below is true for this situation too, the above statement gives a very biased picture
| Quote: |
2 people have died in separate avalanche incidents outside the ski area boundaries after touring up from the road
Both were wearing transceivers and carrying shovel & probe.
|
How many avalanches occurred over the same period? The way it reads is that there have been two avalanches and despite wearing a beacon both people died. If there had been 100 avalanches, 98 people rescued because they were suitably equipped but two people died, the statement above would still be true, but misleading.
I have no experience of Niseko at all; Mike has 8 seasons so his opinion holds a lot more weight than mine. However......
My basic point is, the "stats" as given by Mike tell us nothing really without the wider context. Mu googlefu has failed me and I've failed to find any stats on the Niseko and avalanches. It's very difficult for a Eurocentric skier to grasp the differences between in-bound and outside of the gates etc as in Europe, as we all know, there's no guarantee that slopes will be controlled if they are not a piste. We have a complex snowpack that mean we still get caught out despite having local knowledge/avalanche risk reports/experience/training so carrying transceiver, probe and shovel to be used in an emergency when a mistake is made is the sensible thing to do. Going to a ski area and climate I wasn’t familiar with would mean I’d take all my kit as the chance of me making an error would be higher. I’d probably hire a guide to mitigate that risk. It’s all about balancing risk.
But, it shouldn’t be mandatory to carry a transceiver, probe and shovel. It should be encouraged, it’s best practice etc. and I wouldn’t ski with someone who doesn’t but it’s still up to the individual.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| galpinos wrote: |
| Mike, these are interesting statistics but them seem a bit skewed without the clarifications I've mentioned below. Do you know any of this to allow us to "flesh out the picture"? |
In my 8 winters in the Niseko Resort Area I have witnessed or heard of only one inbounds avalanche.
That was in late April when the snowpack underneath the Ace Pair Lift #2 slid on the sasa grass and ran about 100m.
This was before the lifts opened for the day, and no one was involved or injured.
The only fatalities inbounds have been through cardiac arrest.
To my knowledge there have been 4 seperate avalanches outside the resort area boundary.
1. Taken for a ride, no full body burial, broken tib/fib.
2. Taken for a ride, no full body burial, torn ACL.
3. Full body burial. Body recovered. Dead on scene.
4. Full body burial. Body recovered next day. Dead on scene.
When the snowpack becomes dense and deep there is a tendencey for cracks to appear in the snowpack. This is a result of the snowpack gliding on the waxy sheath of the sasa grass (bamboo) below. Hence glide crack.
1. The Finnish skier fell in a crack in poor visbility. He was skiing with a group but was last man. The rest of the group met at a designated spot well below the crack and he did not show. By the time they took the lift back up and skied to the crack and found him he had suffocated on the snow falling into the crack after him. The cracks act as tree wells do in that regard. And can be up to 6m deep.
2. The Japanese skier was skiing alone in poor visibility. He fell into a crack and suffocated. His body was recovered later that evening.
Hope that clarifies the 'stats'.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Basically Niseko is really safe, as has been said countless times, off-piste means something different here to in Europe, I never carry my pack unless I am leaving the resort boundaries. I don't always trust inbounds security either, I often wear a transceiver and pack skiing inbounds in Chile as there are tonnes of avalanches there.
Do you know much about the Haru-no-taki avalanche Mike?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| jimmer wrote: |
Basically Niseko is really safe, as has been said countless times, off-piste means something different here to in Europe, I never carry my pack unless I am leaving the resort boundaries. I don't always trust inbounds security either, I often wear a transceiver and pack skiing inbounds in Chile as there are tonnes of avalanches there.
Do you know much about the Haru-no-taki avalanche Mike? |
Two skiers skiing Haru-no-taki set off an avalanche which ran to the bottom and hit a group of snowshoers and buried them.
If memory serves two people died and it's been off-limits ever since.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Cheers for the clarification Mike. I can see why the locals don't wear beacons inbounds.
P.S. Apologies if my post came across as comfrontational. I just felt CG was missrepresenting what you'd posted in order to re-inforce his strict no beacon policy and I have an OCD affliction to people using stats incorrectly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Not at all. It reads more clearly now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Yeah that's a similar story to what I heard, thought the number that died may have been higher, was it about 15 years ago?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Think so. 1999 rings a bell.
Will find out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
