 Poster: A snowHead
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@moseyp, I think most instructors do see all the training as an opportunity, but the Eurotest rankles as it is largely seen as (1) not testing different groups fairly; (2) not being all that relevant to instructors; and (3) not also being applied to existing instructors. For example, if it's necessary to be able to ski like a racer then make it something you have to refresh every couple of years. Can you imagine if a test of that sort was introduced for any other teaching profession?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@kieranm, French instructors basically do refresh their race skills. They do the Challenge des Moniteurs to get their handicap to be able to open the Fleche and Chamois races for their clients.
A fair number of guys in their 60s who do the French Masters circuit would still pass the Eurotest.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rjs, they may refresh their skills to allow them to open recreational children races but that is not equivalent to the skill and fitness level to pass the ET.
Would you know what age is the oldest French instructor to ever pass the ET? as far as i know 5 or 6 Brits over 40 have passed and the oldest was 46. Because a couple of ex professional ski racers in their 60's still enjoy masters racing and compete to a decent level so what?
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@skimottaret, I ski alongside people training for the CdM and have been course crew at one of the Memorial races used to qualify for it, they are skiing at a high standard. There are videos of the CdM itself posted each year.
One of the quickest older guys isn't an ex professional ski racer, he was an architect in Paris before retiring to the Alps.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rjs, No doubt they are a decent standard but I doubt many Flèche opener skis to ET Pass level. Does your architect teach skiing? has he passed all the teaching exams... if not him as an example is irrelevant.
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@skimottaret, I have been at lots of FIS races and spent many weeks skiing alongside Eurotest trainees who have passed, I think I can tell how fast someone is skiing by now.
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| moseyp wrote: |
| spyderjon wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| ....the changes from the MoU are that the pass times have increased from 18% men and 24% women to 19 and 25.. No addition of any age or disability allowances. The openers will go a bit quicker and we will end up with the same results... |
Surely this is sexual discrimination allowing women an easier standard? |
No. You put any of the best female racers - Shiffrin, Vonn etc into the mens events and they would be far down the results. The exemption for women is 85 points to mens 100 |
Why do you think the FIS point exemption for women is different to men?
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| Quote: |
Eurotest is easy if you're skiing at the standard of a professional instructor. Italian test by far the worst. It's a very small group that take such issue with it
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Sure it is  if so why is the pass rate usually 5-15% at any race in Italy or elsewhere.. How many professional exams do you know of that has such a high bar?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@rjs, that's nice but you didn't answer the questions related to ski instructors. That a few full cert instructors possibly might still pass the ET and that there are masters racers who may pass is irrelevant to the points @kieranm is making.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Why do you think the FIS point exemption for women is different to men? |
Look at the results when Male and Female FIS GS races have used the same course, M & F will get different FIS points for a given time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @rjs, that's nice but you didn't answer the questions related to ski instructors. That a few full cert instructors possibly might still pass the ET and that there are masters racers who may pass is irrelevant to the points @kieranm is making. |
My answer to @kieranm was that a lot of full cert instructors train for the CdM each year, you can look at the number of entries for each Memorial race on the ESF website.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@rjs, sure and there are a lot of BASI people who do the odd week of ET training to stay sharp as well, different to being examined under pressure in an ET, but I am over and out on arguing this point.
Genuine question, on FIS races run with M/F on same course what time differential did you see? my gut feel would be 10% ish...
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @rjs, sure and there are a lot of BASI people who do the odd week of ET training to stay sharp as well, different to being examined under pressure in an ET, but I am over and out on arguing this point. |
What makes you so sure there is no pressure on people at a Memorial or at the CdM itself ? Individual ESFs want some of their people to qualify then for them to do well at the CdM, there is a lot of prestige in winning it.
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| Genuine question, on FIS races run with M/F on same course what time differential did you see? my gut feel would be 10% ish... |
The time differential doesn't matter, what is important is what FIS points result from a certain time. I will see if I can find the numbers.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
The time differential doesn't matter, what is important is what FIS points result from a certain time. I will see if I can find the numbers.
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Thanks for checking, it matters in relation to the ET handicap given. women get an extra 33% allowance to the guys (24%/18%) when referenced to the pass times which I understand was implemented to get more women into teaching and not neccessarily to do with the difference that a females physical strength/technical standard compared to the male world champion. My research in other sports shows a typical difference between men and women is more like 11%
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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complaining about the Eurotest is like complaining that they don't speak English in France
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A fair number of guys in their 60s who do the French Masters circuit would still pass the Eurotest.
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for sure
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Poster: A snowHead
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To come back to the question of why no age allowance. I assume it is because they don't want older people entering the profession. A lot of things are age limited in France... I guess in the UK too for starting certain professions. The ESF in any case has been active in trying to get rid of older instructors.
Making them (re)take a Eurotest would be one idea 
Here are the ages of the top ten at the last CdM :
Rivas 33
Anselmet 38
Hustache 35
Lambert 29
Fabre 25
Depoilly 40
Deleglise 29
Leleu 27
Obert
Richard Antonioli 35
If I find the rest of the list I'll see what the ages are.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As an observer, who loves the idea of getting some serious skiing done sometime and having a go at the eurotest, but knows that in all reality there's bug all chance of it happening, it strikes me that there is clearly a sensible, straightforward and logical case in having an age allowance AND that there not being one seriously disadvantages older skiers who would like to achieve their level 4 qualifications.
I can only assume from everything I'm seeing is that the reason it has't been adopted is because the powers that be don't believe that it's a significant enough issue for them to put the effort in. Or, to put it another way, they can't be bothered.
Which I think is a shame, as for those who are directly impacted it's a significant issue of some major importance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Surely the Eurotest is just a way of restricting supply of ski instructors to stop wages getting depressed? They don't want to encourage mid career changes into an oversupplied profession.
At least it is a fairly stable standard. As I understand it when the French are testing mountain guides, if too many look to be passing the assessors just jack the climbing standard a couple of notches higher to winnow our the group.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
complaining about the Eurotest is like complaining that they don't speak English in France
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I'm not sure I follow that analogy. I think proper testing of language skills would be a far more relevant standard to reach for ski instructors and that there are many fully qualified instructors with woefully inadequate language skills. Perhaps the complaints are more akin to someone objecting if there was a requirement to speak fluent Italian (or English) in order to be able to teach in France. Perhaps that's what you mean? I think that sort of thing is best left to individual ski schools to decide what language skills their instructors need to deliver the products they provide, but being able to fluently speak the language of the country you're teaching in is undoubtedly an important safety issue and should form part of the qualification.
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Surely the Eurotest is just a way of restricting supply of ski instructors to stop wages getting depressed? They don't want to encourage mid career changes into an oversupplied profession.
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Exactly. And if it was honestly presented as such I'd have much less objection to it. It is the way it is presented as a safety requirement that irks me.
For the avoidance of doubt, I have no need of an ISTD qualification so the Eurotest is entirely irrelevant to my own career. If it was removed it wouldn't change my life in any way. I'm just highlighting the inconsistency and illogical ways in which it is applied.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@davidof,
What discipline are the results for?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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[quote="kieranm"]
I'm not sure I follow that analogy.
[quote]
No you are not. To put it another way, it is like complaining they smell of garlic and drive on the right. Does that make it clearer?
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Exactly. And if it was honestly presented as such I'd have much less objection to it. It is the way it is presented as a safety requirement that irks me.
For the avoidance of doubt, I have no need of an ISTD qualification so the Eurotest is entirely irrelevant to my own career. If it was removed it wouldn't change my life in any way. I'm just highlighting the inconsistency and illogical ways in which it is applied. |
I think you are seeing this the wrong way. The TT and Eurotest are taken much earlier in the parcours by French students. They are not considered "safety tests" as such in the French syllabus but a way of weeding out someone who decides one day he wouldn't mind dabbling a bit at ski instruction from someone who wants to make it their chosen profession and career. They separate the Parisian holiday skier thinking of a mid-life GAP year from someone who already has a certain baggage, probably with a club where he would already have been subject to a long instruction and coaching period. - note this view comes from Michaël Sauvage at the ENSA, it is not my own. The French would like to impose their take on things on other countries but within the EU rules they have to present this as a capacity test.
The BASI student views the Eurotest as an endgame, the French see it more as a right of entry. I bet not many here would like to do their University exams again?
I'm not saying either is right.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
@davidof,
What discipline are the results for? |
Challenge des Moniteurs is a Slalom.
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| davidof wrote: |
The BASI student views the Eurotest as an endgame, the French see it more as a right of entry. I bet not many here would like to do their University exams again?
I'm not saying either is right. |
For sure - but that rather highlights the lack of diversity in top level ski instructors, Basically raced as a kid - you're in. Be an experienced crossover educator or coach bringing something else to the table - nah too old mate. No-one who has seen their clients ski would doubt that the Inside Out guys are very good at what they do but they don't have a snowball in hell's chance of ever being ISTDs cos of the Eurotest.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@skimottaret, You asked why the FIS point exception value was different for men and women. One race to compare would be the Welsh GS in Champery. I wasn't there but it looks like M and F races were on the same courses. Recent races make a better comparison as everyone will be on 30m skis. The winners finished in about the same time but the female one got much lower points for this. My feeling is that women don't get any allowance if they use FIS results instead of taking an actual Eurotest, M:100 = F:85.
I don't think you can extrapolate from this to get some figure that says how much slower women are than men as all the female racers will have raced before any of the men.
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| Quote: |
this view comes from Michaël Sauvage at the ENSA, it is not my own. The French would like to impose their take on things on other countries but within the EU rules they have to present this as a capacity test.
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Thanks @davidof, I think this hits the nail on the head. For me at least I have no wish to change the French system (or their love of garlic, or which side of the road they drive on), and if they find the Eurotest a useful barrier to entry then it makes sense for them to use it. It is at that point it gets morphed into a capacity or safety test and imposed on other national systems (where it makes no sense) in the name of equivalence that I start to dislike it. It is difficult to map equivalence between the single-level French system based on employment for racers who didn't make the national team to a multi-level one based on recreational skiers whose interest in the sport has developed into teaching like BASI, IASI, or the Canadian systems. The handling of this by BASI has I think been pretty poor, which is why there is so much frustration among British ski instructors who weren't grandfathered in and the impression many have is that BASI aren't interested in campaigning for the rights of lower levels of instructors to work legally as they are afraid it would adversely affect the tiny minority of BASI instructors who have the ISTD + Eurotest.
Again I totally understand why the ENSA are in favour of the Eurotest, but I think it should be equally understandable why other groups are not. I personally have nothing to gain either way, but I do feel that some other instructors have not been treated fairly by the way it is applied.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks for the replies, very interesting as ever.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As the father of an ISIA and a BASI-2 I know a lot of ski instructors, and as someone who has done three Eurotest training courses as a way of becoming a better skier myself I have had a lot of opportunity to think about this one.
It is a simply barrier to entry. In no way is it a test of ability in regard to being a ski instructor (i.e. the profession of instructing others in the art of skiing).
I know two instructors in Verbier who are probably the busiest ones in resort...they are already fully booked for next year(!)...dead-man's-shoes only if you want a lesson from them. Inspirational instructors, widely recognised as such by their peers.
Neither has passed the Eurotest, and neither could pass it...a bit too old and neither have a racing background.
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| rjs wrote: |
| stewart woodward wrote: |
@davidof,
What discipline are the results for? |
Challenge des Moniteurs is a Slalom. |
I thought CdM was "Cadbury's Dairy Milk" until I read SnowHeads!
Then I was reading this page thinking it was "Coupe du Monde".
Now, thanks to rjs, I can see it is a slalom test called "Challenge des Moniteurs"
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You know it makes sense.
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@SkiPresto,
It is a series of events including slalom, giant slalom & snowboard events. It is not a test but a race.
The standard is very high & "eurotest openers will be competing.
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FAQ
