 Poster: A snowHead
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Yes, that was my point.
It's not an original thought and has been well discussed here over the years.
If you read the last annual report I can find here https://issuu.com/skiclub you can read the
words of the leadership at that time mostly describing how great it is to have your ski holidays
subsidised by the membership. And they actually published that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@philwig, I had a look at that ... interesting reading, but missed the bit you are referring to. The bit that caught my eye in the council member bios was
"I believe passionately that people should be allowed to form ski clubs, train volunteer leader, and ski behind them in the mountains without interference. To that end I will encourage the club to revisit it's recent decision to wind up its leading service"
Hmmmm, what about the laws of the country that those mountains are in ? Does 'being allowed' override all these ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@eblunt, naughty. Populist @gerry telling the electorate what they wanted to hear without regard to piffling little details like law or agreement. Like his political hero. No wonder that it's going nowhere with that calibre of thinking leading Council.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@eblunt, we invented ski tourism you know.
The locals might show a little gratitude.
If not for us they would still be tending cows and goats.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ...Like his political hero... |
Nathan Bedford Forrest?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@AL9000,
Had to google that one, I obviously move in the wrong circles 
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<laughs> But then the standard of behaviour by SCGB representatives in this thread is
superior to that in more obscure parts of this site, where it's not unknown for them
to spit vile threatening abuse at strangers.
Presumably that's because search engines bring people here.
I wonder what would happen if any time the Ski Club of Great Britain management misbehaves
on this site their text was copied directly into this thread?
--
Thanks for the heads up on "Nathan Bedford Forrest" - you learn something every day.
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@musher, You’re not a Conservative Party member then? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@eblunt, I think in most countries you are allowed to do exactly that. And in many cases you are even allowed to cover out-of-pocket expenses - which is what thousands of amateur sports clubs do every week all over the planet.
Where SCGB probably have it wrong is trying to go beyond that, by providing some form of direct or indirect remuneration to their leaders. That puts the service beyond 'volunteer', and is what generally falls foul of local laws.
Whether they have enough true volunteers to be able to provide an entirely amateur service is debatable. In their place the only things I would be looking to provide to in-resort volunteers are a simple "meet-up" process, and some form of third-party liability cover.
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| philwig wrote: |
--
Thanks for the heads up on "Nathan Bedford Forrest" - you learn something every day. |
Might help one to understand US politics. They never got over the fact that they lost the war.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ousekjarr wrote: |
Interesting to see the latest email from the Titanic - today's gem is about the return of the reps, and the addition of a new Social Rep who gets nothing in return, has no insurance, isn't able to lead people, has no training, and yet is the official SCGB organiser for the time of their appointment.
Might be a few days or weeks before someone is injured or killed on a Social outing and their grieving relatives sue SCGB on the basic that their Social Rep encouraged the victim to ski something which was outside of their abilities? Or does the Social Rep now need to refuse to say anything for fear that they could be accused of directing the group? Is it time for a Consent Card to agree that you're not part of the group, and any suggestion that you were near someone else for much of the day is purely coincidence (or harrassment)? |
I nearly didn't read the email because some numpty had put each paragraph in twice so it was rather triggering for a cynical old pedant like me. Nobody checked it before hitting 'send' because nobody cares.
I hope nobody here is deluded by the announcement, this Social Repping thing is a calamity just waiting to happen and it is now uncloaked in plain sight as the oft-spoken-about 'return to leading'. All the words are in there if you take a minute to study it. It's rule bending to solve a club-ending problem. You don't need to be clairvoyant or a human behaviour expert to foresee the potential for carnage either.
| Quote: |
| some trained Reps may wish to act as Social Reps |
Without a uniform who will ever know eh? Tally ho! Forward! We're going off the back of The Valluga.
| Quote: |
| The “Social Rep” role is different to our “Ski Club Rep” role, however these two roles are not mutually exclusive |
aka 'Let's blur the lines to try and avoid attention'
| Quote: |
| Once Social Reps have established communication channels with members in resort, the role of the Social Rep will be to arrange and encourage member meet ups in resort. These social activities could be on or off snow and a Social Rep will share their knowledge of the resort with other members. |
Note 'ON or OFF SNOW'. It means leading but without a jacket. That's all. And being gung-ho amateurs it'll be off-piste all the way. Who's to know?
| Quote: |
| For example, activities could include; social evenings (such as quiz nights), meals, taking part in recreational activities around the resort, being an active user of the Ski Club App or social skiing as a group of friends. |
I think a Social Rep might legally be the de facto group leader in the social skiing scenario and especially in the event of an incident and investigation. Liability insurance?
| Quote: |
| The role of a Social Rep does not include “leading” members of snow in any capacity. The Ski Club do not expect for any Social Rep to take on any On-Snow responsibility. |
Then, to confuse further and deliver another hit-and-hope get-out-of-jail-free card, they make a statement they can selectively quote if necessary. Where it says 'of snow', they either mean 'on snow' or it was originally 'off-piste' and they decided to edit it. Sherlock? Moi?
The club doesn't exactly have a great record in keeping its members alive and uninjured. Someone will correct me but I think 4 deaths over the years, a number of injuries and litigation. Then of course there was the 'ex-rep', but allegedly wearing a club jacket, I think in Les Arcs, who etc etc (I'll let someone else finish that particular sorry tale as I've only had it third hand)
This is madness.
| Super Chap Great Bloke wrote: |
@eblunt, we invented ski tourism you know.
The locals might show a little gratitude.
If not for us they would still be tending cows and goats. |
You jest (I think?) but some of them still think we rule over a quarter of the world and winning WW2, thanks to the USA and the Russians, means Johnny Foreigner can't tell us what to do. Well, he can, when it comes to the alps it's their rules. Leading/repping are not viable any longer, hence the clumsy morphing into Social Reps.
Will un-remunerated Social Repping lead to back-handers from guides? Remember that one?  And where are the usual suspects who normally defend the club at all costs?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Pruman wrote: |
| Quote: |
| a Social Rep will share their knowledge of the resort with other members. |
| Quote: |
| For example, activities could include; social evenings (such as quiz nights), meals, taking part in recreational activities around the resort, being an active user of the Ski Club App or social skiing as a group of friends. |
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Quite - what a clumsy way of doing things that can be seen through transparently. Love the way that being a user of the Ski Club App is considered an activity and the erm social skiing as a group of friends is positioned as an afterthought.
Has this plan been tested and survived contact with the enemy?
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The latest scattergun email from SCGB HQ to members and non-members alike has arrived, and suddenly all becomes clear on the appointment of the new GM...
| Quote: |
| James has a long history with the Club, joining the Freshtracks team in 1997 and completing the Reps course in 1998. He brings a wealth of experience of holiday operations, including six years with Ski World, ultimately running their special events programme. He has extensive experience of partnerships, as the founder of LISTEX and Mountain Trade Network, and brings skills in marketing, business and financial management. |
I wonder if he's been a member for the last 22 years, and if not, why not? Seems he left SCGB in April 1999 - https://uk.linkedin.com/in/jamesgambrill
Still no news release on the public webpage though. Maybe it's not seen as an important appointment?
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You know it makes sense.
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@ousekjarr, and brings skills in marketing, business and financial management.
He'll need to bring skills in servitude as well
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| eblunt wrote: |
| @ousekjarr, and brings skills in marketing, business and financial management. |
This is not evidenced by information in the public domain:
| Quote: |
| Mr Simon James Gambrill holds 4 appointments at 4 active companies, has resigned from 1 companies and held 1 appointments at 1 dissolved companies. Their longest current appointment spans 9 years, 11 months and 25 days at LISTEX LIMITED. The combined cash at bank value for all businesses where SIMON holds a current appointment equals £0, a combined total current assets value of £3k with a total current liabilities of £12.1k and a total current net worth of £-60.5k. Roles associated with Mr Simon James Gambrill within the recorded businesses include: Director |
SCGB is a company that, in theory, should be turning over £5-6m, half or more from tour operating. That in itself is tiny enough but on a whole different scale to what he has been running hitherto. I'm sure he's a great guy, but I don't care. There are many more staff, many reps (or is it more accurate to say ex-reps?), and a Board of Directors (Council) to take direction from and answer to. There is also now the undeniable pressure to pull a rabbit out of a hat - grow membership when the graph is pointing sharply the other way and there's presumably little budget to do it with, get the holiday program back on track and profitable, somehow appease reps who appear to be willing to break the law in order to get free skiing (I refer you to previous dissertations on this subject). If I ever meet him my advice would be to set some very unbreakable ground rules mainly along the lines of "don't ask me to do anything that may be breaking the law either here or in another country." Because, if I'm right and please tell me if I'm not, so-called volunteer reps are effectively seen as employees in places like Austria, Italy, France especially and probably in Switzerland too, by virtue of the fact they are being remunerated (benefits in kind**) and working for a commercial organisation servicing paying customers. They need work permits, otherwise they are illegal migrant workers, and if there is an EU national capable of doing the job, they won't get a work permit. That aside from the huge workload it would create. This isn't quantum physics, brain surgery or solving Israel/Palestine, it's just understanding our shiny new status as a 3rd country. Can anyone see a way around this I'm missing? (Please don't say Social Reps)
** are they being declared to HMRC?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Pruman, To be fair there are ways in which you can play the "seek forgiveness not permission" game. But is best done when you are a "tech" innovator with a large market cap and the financial firepower/innovative offer to both command large market shares and a loyal customer base who will lobby for you. And a bit of indifference to your contractors. Oh and a huuuge cash chest for litigating everywhere you get caught out.
So is SCGB closer to being Uber or Air BnB or closer to being err the SCGB?
Maybe there is an Uber model where anyone in resort can log on as a "social rep" for a while and get I dunno Klub Kudos as a reward. Klub Kudos could then potentially be redeemed at an annual Klub Kudos Karnival (or KKK meeting as it might be known) for whatever they've whipped together. There you go another brilliant idea for solving the problem given for free
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, are you saying you didn't get one? You're welcome to mine - I'll fish it out of the bin and forward it on...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Even Heidi can't defeat gravity....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Clara, a wealthy, young blonde, was very popular with the SCGB Gauleiter. RIP.
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that's pretty close to what happened !
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Pruman wrote: |
| ... Can anyone see a way around this I'm missing?.... |
The SCGB have talked about this at length across many other posts. Take this example which is not untypical:
| Current SCGB Director Gerry wrote: |
Well, I'm one of the 17+ million that took your FoM away from you.
Fuck all you can do about it now except cry. ... Now look where your arrogance has got you. |
I'd think that those who've been disadvantaged by Brexit law changes would be more likely to report illegal workers than anything else.
[moderator - name edited to snowheads username] Gerry doesn't post in this thread, the one place where he could perhaps be expected to be able to contribute something more than just rudeness.
It appears that he assumes that the SCGB gets to pick and choose where its profane and rude behaviour is made public.
I beg to differ on that.
And here's an image of a snowboarder, none of which you'll find in their 2019 annual report (I did check).
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| philwig wrote: |
| Pruman wrote: |
| ... Can anyone see a way around this I'm missing?.... |
The SCGB have talked about this at length across many other posts. Take this example which is not untypical:
| Current SCGB Director Gerald David Aitken wrote: |
Well, I'm one of the 17+ million that took your FoM away from you.
Fuck all you can do about it now except cry. ... Now look where your arrogance has got you. |
I'd think that those who've been disadvantaged by Brexit law changes would be more likely to report illegal workers than anything else. |
TBF, he wouldn't be an illegal worker if he was a rep, he recently got himself an Irish passport.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@philwig, fair dues - p31, there's 3 snowboarders and an few unattended snowboards dotted about - just above where it tells you all about the reps! They occupy about a similar number of pixels in the image as the bins do... can you feel the love? #inclusion
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| @philwig, fair dues - p31, there's 3 snowboarders and an few unattended snowboards dotted about - just above where it tells you all about the reps! They occupy about a similar number of pixels in the image as the bins do... can you feel the love? #inclusion |
You're quite correct - my mistake.
| Current SCGB Director Gerald David Aitken wrote: |
| ... I'm eligible for an Irish passport and EU citizenship, ... maybe some part time instructor 'work' in the EU. ... |
So their policy is that the directors will take Irish citizenship so they can work legally in EU resorts from that perspective.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 21-05-21 16:09; edited 1 time in total
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| philwig wrote: |
And here's an image of a snowboarder, none of which you'll find in their 2019 annual report (I did check).
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Should have licenced your pic. Would have ticked many boxes like glamming up unrealistic expectations of what might be had on Banter Yoda outings and not causing members to drop their pearls (sure there's an Urban Dictionary on that) as it is not unambiguously clearly a snowboarder.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @Pruman, To be fair there are ways in which you can play the "seek forgiveness not permission" game. |
I agree, that's what they think, and may very well get away with it but, or should I say BUT, if there is an incident/accident and a resulting investigation, would you enjoy being an illegal migrant rep? Squeaky bum time! It's no way to run a serious business.
| philwig wrote: |
| Current SCGB Director Gerald David Aitken wrote: |
| ... I'm eligible for an Irish passport and EU citizenship, ... maybe some part time instructor 'work' in the EU. ... |
So their policy is that the directors will take Irish citizenship so they can work legally in EU resorts from that perspective. |
I was aware he'd done that and it does rather show that one Director, at least, understands the rep-ending consequences of having just a UK passport. And he needs to understand there is still the issue of tax on those benefits in kind. I suspect, even with the right passport, you can't just rock up and get working in the EU when technically 'employed' by a UK company. And I am sure there are others who suddenly discovered EU parents & grandparents and went through the motions thinking this was a way around it. However, there are about 200 SCGB reps covering 17 resorts so I would think it not all that straightforward to deploy them legally. If my assertions above prove to be correct, I cannot see there being any UK-passport holding reps working in the EU/EEA next winter, and EU passport holders who are UK resident might need to have their legality looked at. And there is no way any sane organisation could possibly go through with Social Reps in the terms it is currently described. The cartoon above not a joke unfortunately!
So what does all this mean for fee-paying Members I hear you scream (not)? Firstly, the Club should not be advertising the Rep Service as a Membership Benefit unless they have worked out how to do it legally. Secondly, if it is such a great benefit, and Members haven't had the chance to use it this past 14 months, why is there no rebate/deferral of Membership subs? They have just arrogantly assumed that the dwindling membership are happy to 'support the club' - well nobody asked me.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Pruman wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @Pruman, To be fair there are ways in which you can play the "seek forgiveness not permission" game. |
I agree, that's what they think, and may very well get away with it but, or should I say BUT, if there is an incident/accident and a resulting investigation, would you enjoy being an illegal migrant rep? Squeaky bum time! It's no way to run a serious business. |
Absolutely not. Wouldn't want to spend any time in a French/Austrian cell/police station with any attendant threats about my passport or visitor status being "marked" or restricted in future. Guess that would make me a cowardly footsoldier for the SCGB. On the other hand I'll be more than happy to ski with and share my knowledge and routefinding with fellow sHs on a truly peer-peer basis whereever I might ski with them in such locations as I have done for many years. Yet no reward/recompense of costs for the latter of course because that's what community really means despite @dadmin's occasional authoritarian urges to carry a sH ID card and have it scanned etc to prove one's bonafides (he's just The Man with a bowel quivering bassline* ).....
*or possibly baseline because if he's The Man he's measuring everything and selling that data everywhere...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Pruman wrote: |
| ..,may very well get away with it but, or should I say BUT, if there is an incident/accident and a resulting investigation, would you enjoy being an illegal migrant rep? Squeaky bum time! ... |
While they sit in their cell waiting for the return of their Irish passport, and in between visits from Herman the German, they could read the complete works of Fredrick Douglas.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have actually been arrested by the Austrian border guard. That was back when the Czech border was Strong and Stable or whatever the English nationalists bang on about.
Things are different now, but the trick is actually to be arrested by the Austrians not other lot, and the Austrians were nice.
(1) I note they're a company "limited by guarantee". Who gives those guarantees, and what's the value of them?
I was just looking at their assets and burn rate, like you do.
(2) If you were to ride in the US or Canada today as a "representative" of a UK or EU commercial organisation you'd need to do that legally.
How does the SCGB do that today?
(3) What about liability ? If you're paying to be "led" in a group by a UK organisation, then in Canada at least someone needs to sign a
waiver, not withstanding the legal limitations of such things. They're handy for example if someone dies in a tree well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Super Chap Great Bloke wrote: |
If not for us they would still be tending cows and goats. |
. Is that what it's called these days?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Pruman wrote: |
Will un-remunerated Social Repping lead to back-handers from guides? Remember that one? And where are the usual suspects who normally defend the club at all costs? |
No. Let me guess Rep organises group to have a guide for the day once / twice a week on a regular basis.....and not only a free place- but also...
I'm guessing where as well. details?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rjs wrote: |
TBF, he wouldn't be an illegal worker if he was a rep, he recently got himself an Irish passport. |
rroflmao
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
what might be had on Banter Yoda outings
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I've no idea what one of those might be, but after 30+years as a member I shall not be renewing my membership this year. I have to say that I had some very enjoyable Freshtracks holidays back in the '80s and '90s but since then I've only kept up my membership for the insurance - and now that they've screwed that up it's simply not worth continuing.
Oh, and I have no wish to be a member of any organisation which includes the odious Gerry of course.
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"Please accept my resignation. I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member" Groucho Marx
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@Yoda, apolgies Banter Yoda is the Social Rep without whom (and their associated consumption of expenses and freebies) members would clearly sit in miserable silence unable to communicate with each other and certainly not capable of assessing if they were up for skiing with each other (y'know like you'd expect people in the collegiate atmosphere of a real club to be able to do).
Or at least that's my interpretation of the "essential" role of the Social Reps. Presumably there will be a appropriate paid course whereby members can expect to develop their banter skills and be assessed as ready for such roles?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| Quote: |
what might be had on Banter Yoda outings
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I've no idea what one of those might be, but after 30+years as a member I shall not be renewing my membership this year. I have to say that I had some very enjoyable Freshtracks holidays back in the '80s and '90s but since then I've only kept up my membership for the insurance - and now that they've screwed that up it's simply not worth continuing.
Oh, and I have no wish to be a member of any organisation which includes the odious Gerry of course. |
30+ years. You get less for murder. A shame though, evidence that they really must take good care of loyal supporters as it costs a whole lot more to recruit new ones than to retain long-standing ones. This while still offering 18 months for the price of 12 to new members. It's not clever.
And I wonder just how many have terminated thanks to that Gerry fellow you mention. Got a feeling I've seen dozens on this forum, the old SCGB forum and on various facebook groups, and of course only a small % will ever reveal why they've left.
Getting back to the insurance issue, I think there is potentially quite a big issue. The Platinum Membership includes an annual multi-trip policy. If you'd had such a policy direct with the insurer over the last 15 months or so, you would have had either a part-refund or a deferment until such time that travel was available again. This is all down to insurers treating their customers fairly per the FCA. But I'm not aware that the club have refunded/deferred membership subs for anyone so has anyone got a Platinum Membership and have you been offered any refund or deferment for the insurance part of it?
But, re the repping situation, this is on another thread re working as an instructor in Switzerland:
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
The brexit comedy continues....
Even the Netherlands has banned British ski instructors 
Email from BASI today...
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We are aware that as lockdowns relax and international travel becomes an option some coaches, instructors, clubs and academies may be contemplating visits to ski centres in the Netherlands.
As you will be aware from previous communications, the Netherlands, and consequently ski centres such as Landgraff require coaches and instructors to apply for a work permit in order to operate legally.
Further investigations with UWV Netherlands have indicated that no cross border agreements for employment exist and before any UK citizen would be considered for a work permit, it would need to be shown that no suitable NL, EU, EEA or Swiss person could be found to fulfil the role.
The validity of your insurance cover is determined by whether you are operating legally. Our insurers, Bluefin insurance, have stated that "any insurance cover provided for coaching activity will become void if the activity undertaken is deemed illegal in the country concerned".
Operating in any of the ski centres in the Netherlands which include:
Ruchphen
Zoetermeer
Montana
Snow world Amsterdam
Snow Dome De Uithof
Landgraaf
Terneruzen
Without a work permit will result in your insurance cover almost certainly not being valid and as a result you will not be insured in the event of a claim.
Whilst we cannot prevent coaches, instructors, clubs and academies from choosing to travel to, or operating in any country, we must advise that any coach or instructors choosing to travel to the Netherlands will be running the risk of operating without insurance. This is not something any awarding body could sanction.
If coaches/instructors wish to apply for a work permit the process is outlined below, but an application is at this stage unlikely to succeed and would not, without the issue of a work permit allow a coach to operate legally.
· LINK 1: https://www.government.nl/topics/brexit/question-and-answer/as-a-british-national-do-i-need-a-work-permit-to-work-in-the-netherlands-after-brexit
· LINK 2: https://www.werk.nl/werkgevers/wervingsadvies/werkvergunning/aanvragen/
· LINK 3: https://www.werk.nl/werkgevers/wervingsa |
Note, it has nothing to do with instructor qualifications, it's all about nationality and the requirement for a work permit. I'm surprised that coaches travelling with their teams aren't somehow exempt - world sport would grind to a halt if all coaches from 3rd countries needed work permits but, there you have it, BASI have clearly taken advice. If coaches, many of whom are volunteers, need work permits then SCGB Reps most definitely need them (per the above "unlikely to succeed"), and why I believe the rep program as advertised is a non-starter in Austria, Switzerland, Italy, France. Please feel free to disagree! Right or wrong it surely begs for some clarity from the club.
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FAQ
