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This holds for off piste as well, even in steep terrain what I see as 'good' skiing is moving your body inside the turn and tipping your skis over, if your skis are underneath you, and you're twisting them, that's not high performance skiing.
If you're on a 50degree slope the last place you want to be is well inside the turn - you want the skis pretty much under you and you'll be twisting them like mad. That's pretty high performance. Even the non-mortals who get videoed skiing down Canadian precipices are still pretty much over their skis.
I agree with rob@rar that there are few if any uniquely off-piste skills. There is however a huge difference in the blend of those skill used depending on terrain:
off-piste doesn't require anything like the edge angles that you can usefully employ on piste;
there's a huge amount more rebalancing/recovery-skill required off-piste;
you'll probably have a much greater range of movements off-piste, particularly unplanned ones (see previous point);
you'll probably be balanced a little further back, as your imposed imbalances will more likely than not throw you forward;
you'll be making turns far more with pressured flat skis than on-piste (except for instructors demonstating CT );
you'll generally be much more evenly weighted between the two skis (softer snow);
you'll probably be making more airborne edge-changes
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that'll do for now.
No I don't think of avalement as not quite the same as cross-under, but they have strong similarities. Probably a better similarity between an off-piste avalement and something on-piste is absorption in bumps - although there's a substantial difference again there in how much the skis are actually sucked up and how much it's reaction to the snow shape.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
GrahamN wrote:
There is however a huge difference in the blend of those skill used depending on terrain:
I agree - same skills just used differently, and mostly to a higher level because of the complexity of the snow and the terrain. A good skier will have a bog toolbox of different skills, and be able to belnd them and use them to a very high level when the situation calls for it.
Quote:
No I don't think of avalement as not quite the same as cross-under, but they have strong similarities. Probably a better similarity between an off-piste avalement and something on-piste is absorption in bumps - although there's a substantial difference again there in how much the skis are actually sucked up and how much it's reaction to the snow shape.
Yes, I was thinking about comparing bumps skiing to avalement turns in tricky off-piste snow. Again, it's one of those skills which you use in different ways (avalement probably has a bigger 'suck-up' range of movement and a slower rate of movement than a racing cross-under transition).
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yes, I was thinking about comparing bumps skiing to avalement turns in tricky off-piste snow. Again, it's one of those skills which you use in different ways (avalement probably has a bigger 'suck-up' range of movement and a slower rate of movement than a racing cross-under transition).
[geek]
"Fundamentally the same, but different" was how it was described to me by a French UIGM guide / ski instructor chappie on the La Grave trip where I met GrahamN. His explanation was that avalement is pro-active suck-up / extend down movement where the objective is to anticipate the terrain, rather than react to it - with strong emphasis on fore-aft balance management.
Cross-under is a way of managing pressure so that you seek to keep constant pressure through the bottom of the turn between the skis and the snow. By its nature its receive, rather than pro-active and achieved by softening the legs, rather than "sucking them up". This is how you do cross-under:
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 18-11-11 18:58; edited 2 times in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
FlyingStantoni wrote:
His explanation was that avalement is pro-active suck-up / extend down movement where the objective is to anticipate the terrain, rather than react to it - with strong emphasis on fore-aft balance management.
...
Cross-under is a way of managing pressure so that you seek to keep constant pressure through the bottom of the turn between the skis and the snow. By its nature its receive, rather than pro-active and achieved by softening the legs, rather than "sucking them up". This is how you do cross-under:
A good description of the difference. It's all in the timing, and in this case the difference is very subtle.
If you're on a 50degree slope the last place you want to be is well inside the turn - you want the skis pretty much under you and you'll be twisting them like mad. That's pretty high performance. Even the non-mortals who get videoed skiing down Canadian precipices are still pretty much over their skis.
I agree with rob@rar that there are few if any uniquely off-piste skills. There is however a huge difference in the blend of those skill used depending on terrain:
off-piste doesn't require anything like the edge angles that you can usefully employ on piste;
there's a huge amount more rebalancing/recovery-skill required off-piste;
you'll probably have a much greater range of movements off-piste, particularly unplanned ones (see previous point);
you'll probably be balanced a little further back, as your imposed imbalances will more likely than not throw you forward;
you'll be making turns far more with pressured flat skis than on-piste (except for instructors demonstating CT Wink );
you'll generally be much more evenly weighted between the two skis (softer snow);
you'll probably be making more airborne edge-changes
.
.
that'll do for now.
No I don't think of avalement as not quite the same as cross-under, but they have strong similarities. Probably a better similarity between an off-piste avalement and something on-piste is absorption in bumps - although there's a substantial difference again there in how much the skis are actually sucked up and how much it's reaction to the snow shape.
But how often do you actually ski 50 degree slopes? And yes, when you are in that terrain, a bit of caution may be better than ski performance, but it's still desirable as much as possible.
I agree with you in principle, in that no, you don't need an awful amount of new skills when skiing off piste, as compared to on, but I would disagree with a number of your points there. Greater range of movement? Why? In moguls yes, but in powder/crud, I can't see why you would, especially if you are making a retraction/cross under turn off piste and on.
Why would you have less edge angles than on piste? No it's not required, but it works just as well off piste as on. Would you say I should have less edge angle in this shot? Personally I'd like more.
When I watch my friends/colleagues who ski really well (a couple are in that interski video), they look amazingly similar off piste and on, you really don't need to change much if you are already strong and balanced.
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jimmer, liking it....
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After all it is free
On a 50º slope you'd more likely be doing jump turns, jumping off the top foot. This surely is a very particular turn you would never do on a race track or a piste. Not only does it men you don't have to lose as much height on the turn as a normal jump turn but the inner ski can start to turn in the air before the outer ski even leaves the snow.
Not that many people learn it but our guide once got us to practice it before taking us down a very steep gully.
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snowball, not at all if you watch racers achieving big angles they are in effect well over 50 degrees and pop out of the turn almost like a jump turn
how is this for "steep" skiing
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skimottaret, I'm talking about 50º slopes not body angles. You can start the turn from stationary. The way I was taught it you punch down on the lower foot and then immediately on the upper foot - but the lower foot press pressure could just be a product of the previous turn I suppose if you really linked these - which would make it more like a racing turn - but the feeling is very different if you are trying to get the absolute minimum speed out of the turn and much or most (or in extreme cases all) of the turn you are off the snow. Obviously you need a steep slope to practice this.
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skimottaret, interesting perspective (in both literal and metaphorical ways) - but there's a huge difference there due to the direction of gravity.
jimmer, maybe not 50 degree very often (), but 40+degree probably more days than not, and the same thing applies. I think the "edge angle" point is made by skimottaret's subsequent picture (in normal orientation). Pulling those kind of edge angles, or even more mortal ones, requires a high level of confidence in the surface you're skiing on, as it takes a pretty small unexpected lump/bump in the surface to cock up the edgehold. In your picture you've clearly got some pristine powder, so you can pull a reasonable turn, and you may have a fair degree of confidence in what lies under the surface - but you have no way of knowing there's not more silky powder or the odd tree stump sticking up, or a lump of wind- or rain-crust hiding 15cm under that pristine surface waiting to throw you out. I'd contend that on a similarly pristine piste you'd probably be pulling some even higher edge angles and really making hay. (And re another of my points, you're also a lot further back in that picture than I'd expect to see someone with your clear ability on a smooth piste)
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Remi Lecluse recommends double poll plants on very steep slopes. A racing technique?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
snowball, clearly not, but I also wouldn't put it in the category of "skiing skills" either - it's just one of those little items in horizon's "off-piste oriented....bag of tricks" that goes to make life easier. But if you really insist...yes I have done them (and Norwegian pole plants too) on occasions on-piste in race-training sessions.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
Pulling those kind of edge angles, or even more mortal ones, requires a high level of confidence in the surface you're skiing on, as it takes a pretty small unexpected lump/bump in the surface to cock up the edgehold.
It also requires a bit of speed
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
we just ran a clinic on steep skiing at Hemel and i showed this video of an example of how to make turns on steep terrain, does he push off the lower leg?
speaking of double pole plants lets watch Bodie, i so so so love him completely contradicting his coach on when to pole plant and the coaches face at about 50 secs and his recovery of the situation...
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double post sorry
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 19-11-11 23:09; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
skimottaret wrote:
we just ran a clinic on steep skiing at Hemel and i showed this video of an example of how to make turns on steep terrain, does he push off the lower leg?
i think lovely steep turns like that are as good to watch as the big named freeride boys ripping down spines.
and of all the places to demonstrate in Chamonix...mallory....
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rob@rar wrote:
GrahamN wrote:
(and Norwegian pole plants too)
In gates? The potential for "confusion" and sudden skier-ground contact is high, I would imagine
Errm....no . A lot of race training involves no gates (as you know full well )
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skimottaret, lovely videos
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GrahamN wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
GrahamN wrote:
(and Norwegian pole plants too)
In gates? The potential for "confusion" and sudden skier-ground contact is high, I would imagine
Errm....no . A lot of race training involves no gates (as you know full well )
Ah, I see. Although I wouldn't be surprised if you gave it a go if you thought it would make you faster!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret wrote:
does he push off the lower leg?
Most of the time looks like both legs but occasionally clearly the upper leg (as at 4.12 approx, just before the end)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Jimmy Oden talks of going off your upper leg in his book 'free skiing' (a valuable off-piste/touring/ski-mountaineering/weather/avalanche book).
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
skimottaret wrote:
we just ran a clinic on steep skiing at Hemel and i showed this video of an example of how to make turns on steep terrain, does he push off the lower leg?
I hadn't really noticed it before, but yes. Most of his turns he starts with the lower knee straightening fractionally before the upper, as he starts the jump form the lower leg, before finishing off the jump with a firm push from the upper leg - exactly as snowball first described it (see the slo-mo sections from 2:50). I think the point here is that the upper leg is initially bent much more then the lower, so it's in a much weaker position to start with - the bend of the lower leg is in a much more natural position to push from so you can then get a stronger push from the lower leg to start with. Once the upward movement of the body has allowed the upper leg to straighten a bit, then you can get that upper leg to contribute to the finishing part of the jump as the lower ski comes off the snow.
(I think I've mentioned this before but..) One guide I had recommended lifting the upper ski off the ground before making that firm push (or even stamp) with the upper leg - and that's what that initial push with the lower leg would also achieve. Another instructor I had (who posts regularly here) really didn't like the "stamp" idea....although I have to say it works for me - as much a psychological focus-point as anything else - to really get that upper leg working.
We may have answered an earlier question here in though in that this jump- (or pedal-) turn is probably a technique that's really only of necessity in steep off-piste, and I can't really think where it would be relevant on-piste (most pistes are not steep enough to require it, or have deep enough snow - unless shortly after a big dump before being groomed, and then the conditions are essentially off-piste anyway).
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
skimottaret wrote:
speaking of double pole plants lets watch Bodie, i so so so love him completely contradicting his coach on when to pole plant and the coaches face at about 50 secs and his recovery of the situation...
Yep, I'm 100% with Bode on this one. Some instructors do seem to get very hung up about the plant being at the end of the turn. The way I look at it is - would you make that plant if you were not going to make the next turn? No...so it's clearly not part of the turn we are currently finishing. I agree that it may coincide with the movements you are making at the end of a particular turn - but that's because you are overlapping the movements for the start of the next turn with those for the end of the current one. There's no reason why the two turns have to be completely segregated in time, and doing so just wastes time - time that you particularly don't have when trying to make a tight line.
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Kenny, I know man have already said it, but great vid and very interesting.
Please sir can I have some more.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret wrote:
Quote:
Obviously you need a steep slope to practice this.
Do you ???
This has very little to do with the version of the jump turn I was describing and even in the marvelous demonstration of steep skiing, as you yourself pointed out, he was mostly probably not doing it except in that one instance - the turn he was doing is the one I do a lot on steep slopes (though nothing like as well, obviously) done more by retraction of the legs than jumping up into the air. The lower leg take off is the normal version of the jump turn, isn't it. I found the upper leg take off (after an initial bounce off the lower leg) quite hard to do.
I really don't think any occasional use of poles in race training would teach you that double pole plant. Come off it, skimottaret, I can't believe even you really think so.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
snowball, i am not trying to be argumentative but trying to make the point that a good turn starts by pressuring the upper ski, whether you are on a 50deg slope or a firm piste... Not sure what a normal jump turn is but i would do it by extending off my upper leg take off just as you were taught... great skill to possess and the MOVEMENT is very similar to what Ted Ligerty is doing when he finishes his turn on a flatter piste but at higher edge angles...
Other than a few tactical situations the skills learned for skiing are pretty relavent for on piste, off piste, moguls or wherever you find yourself. Good skiing is good skiing.
we use double pole plants all the time in race training, great to get re centered, good tactically for GS racing through gates. i could put more video up of World Cup skiers free skiing where they almost all to a man use a double pole plant as Bode did in the video above but that video has been posted loads of times...
The word covers a variety of different uses. I suppose I was thinking more of something I and others do on very steep, firm, exposed slopes when needing to turn but not wanting to let go enough to have any momentum when landing. Starting stationary, punching down, twisting round in the air and landing almost stationary. But perhaps I should always have done it off the top foot?
I suppose my couloir entry on another thread is half of one of those without any need to punch down, so it is correspondingly easy.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
But perhaps I should always have done it off the top foot?
GrahamN, surely it's easier to push off a bent leg than a straight one. Similar to the move made to shift from old inside to new outside ski in most other performance levels of skiing.
IMO, aside from the gradient of the slope, the reason the french guide in the video needs to jump turn is his equipment. With wider skis it would be easier to include a rotation of the ski with it in contact with the snow still, thus providing grip and control as the edges of any ski would in a short radius turn on piste. Why would a jump turn provide more stability and control than a fully completed turn where the ski remains in contact with the snow?
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Quote:
With wider skis it would be easier to include a rotation of the ski with it in contact with the snow
SkiRider, could you expand. not sure i follow why a wider ski helps with rotation
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skimottaret, I only meant in the specific case of softer snow on a steeper gradient. A narrow ski will naturally dive at the initiation, making it harder to steer against the weight of the snow, whereas one with a wider waist profile will sit higher, making it easier to include an element of rotation at slower speeds in those conditions. In any case, why should movements made in strong skiing at flatter gradients evolve into something completely different at the steeper end of the scale?
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SkiRider, okay gotchya..
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SkiRider wrote:
GrahamN, surely it's easier to push off a bent leg than a straight one. Similar to the move made to shift from old inside to new outside ski in most other performance levels of skiing.
Depends on the degree of bend. Clearly it's virtually impossible to jump off a straight leg, but that's not what either Lecuse or I are saying. On slopes this steep, the upper leg will be bent sufficiently that the knee is at or above the hip level, and foot out in front of hips - look at Lecluse's vid. This is an incredibly weak position, and it's much easier to jump from a position where the leg is bent about half as much - just try it.
Quote:
IMO, aside from the gradient of the slope, the reason the french guide in the video needs to jump turn is his equipment. With wider skis it would be easier to include a rotation of the ski with it in contact with the snow still, thus providing grip and control as the edges of any ski would in a short radius turn on piste. Why would a jump turn provide more stability and control than a fully completed turn where the ski remains in contact with the snow?
Completely disagree. As for why you'd change your tactics as the slope changes? My policy is to always use the tactic appropriate to the conditions, what's yours? And as Lecluse is one of the most highly regarded guides in the world, I'm quite happy to go with him on this one.
The full contact rotation turn works fine on a gentle slope on a smooth piste. On a 40+ slope with snow of variable resilience the chances of a smooth rotation with the ski in contact with the snow are highly variable. In these conditions, a catch of the ski in the snow before it's passed the fall line could very well make that turn your last. Get the skis out of the snow and you have consistency and can make that turn reliably. Note that Lecluse doesn't do a full 180 in the air, but more like a 120, so he does use the snow to smear out the completion of the turn smoothly and minimise the instantaneous forces in the landing and the shock to the snowpack (of less than perfect stability). In a narrower corridor the rotation element at the end of the turn would have to be sharper to minimise the lateral movement in the turn. The adjustments needed at this point (landing to final completion) are still variable, but less high-risk than if you were doing so before the fall-line. As the gradient reduces, or the snow quality becomes more consistent, and where the consequences of failure are much lower you can do more work above the fall-line.
Similar arguments apply to skiing breakable crust. If you are confident that the crust is thick enough to hold your weight, then you can do gentle, minimal impact, rotation turns riding on top of the crust. If there's a reasonable chance you are going to break through, then you need to do so deliberately, and jump clear of the snow to be able to make that rotation movement - you'll stand no chance of doing so with the ski under a few (or more) cm of crust. The more severe the consequences of getting it wrong the more confidence you need that you're making the right call, and the more likely you are going to have to take the high-energy option of jumping (at least the initiation of) those turns.
FAQ
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);
. A lot of race training involves no gates (as you know full well 