 Poster: A snowHead
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paulio, despite the best efforts of some of the contributors to this thread, I go "wheeeeeee" (sp?  ) on the slopes just as often, and probably more so, than I did before embarking - very late in life - on a load of lessons.
There is a lot more enjoyment for me in doing something well than there is in doing it badly. That goes for pretty much anything in life, at least for me. (And it's why I gave up the piano - I was too lazy to put the work in and now I regret that.)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Maybe there gets a time in every man's life when going 'wheeeeeee!' is no longer enough? |
I think you'll find that, as you get older, that wheeeeeee becomes more of a problem as the old prostate packs up
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wheeeeeee!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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FlyingStantoni, 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Pedantica, I'm going to have to disagree on the musical point here as well. Take someone like, I dunno, Django Reinhardt. (sp?)
He didn't even have enough fingers to play guitar 'properly'. He had a crab's claw instead of a hand. There are loads of self taught musicians who play thoroughly stirring music, with presumably what might be termed 'atrocious technique'.
I also know a great many classically trained musicians (I have a family full of them for a start) who are completely uncreative, and who feel stifled as such, because they've been taught to precisely recite things, rather than to express themselves.
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| paulio wrote: |
| There are loads of self taught musicians who play thoroughly stirring music, with presumably what might be termed 'atrocious technique'. |
It's always going to be possible to highlight people who reach a good level of achievement in their chosen thing despite not having paid for formal lessons. I'm certainly not suggesting that the only way you can get good enough to enjoy skiing is to have lots of formal lessons. Far from it. I think there are relatively few people who take lessons after their first two or three weeks skiing, and just about everyone I see on the mountain is having a good time other than people being shouted at by their partners who are trying to teach them on inappropriate terrain. But I would say that typically some good ski lessons (whether they be paid or free) are much more likely to improve you ability than not have lessons, and typically the better you get the more fun you're going to have.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 4-11-11 11:57; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| As we've drifted slightly maybe a serious question - does anybody enjoy their skiing less as your ability and confidence has improved. Has it become joyless even though you are more proficient? |
Don't most things follow a curve along the lines of:
1) you haven't got a clue about something, but you enjoy it
2) you enjoy it so much that you want to know more
3) the more you know the less you know you really know
4) the greater your self-consciousness then the more self-critical you become.
I'm sure that
I know that I'm my own worst critic and that I get frustrated when I (know that I've) ski(ed) badly.
I cycle at (1), swim at (2) and ski at (4).
I'm sure there's a level above (4). I'm just not that good.
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I should point out at this point, probably, that I really (loads) enjoyed the ski lessons I've had with certain contributors to this thread.
I am also an absolutely terrible (as in: truly bloody awful) self-taught guitarist.
This is my favourite thread for yonks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| How can somebody as sweet and lovely as Amanda beast anybody? |
Iron fist in a silk / mink glove.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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paulio,
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| Quote: |
sweet and lovely as Amanda
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 True
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You know it makes sense.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
Don't most things follow a curve along the lines of:
1) you haven't got a clue about something, but you enjoy it
2) you enjoy it so much that you want to know more
3) the more you know the less you know you really know
4) the greater your self-consciousness then the more self-critical you become.
I'm sure that
I know that I'm my own worst critic and that I get frustrated when I (know that I've) ski(ed) badly.
I cycle at (1), swim at (2) and ski at (4).
I'm sure there's a level above (4). I'm just not that good. |
I ski kind of OK. (Rob or someone is free to contest this claim  ) I play guitar really badly.
I must say that when I ski and make a cock of it, I don't beat myself up too much. But when I play guitar I physically disgust myself, and I want to cry and break things.
So on your scale, I probably ski at 2.5 and play guitar at 1 or less. But I'm much more critical of myself when I wring horrible sounds out of my guitar than I am when I skid a turn or fall over.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| paulio wrote: |
| I ski kind of OK. (Rob or someone is free to contest this claim ) |
Nah, much better than OK, especially for someone who also boards.
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Poster: A snowHead
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paulio, Bob Dylan never liked his guitar playing, and hates his singing voice, and John Bonham's drumming technique was waaay too hard, and both of them turned out ok (if you ignore Bonzo's untimely demise). They both have a unique sound which can't be imitated in a play-by-numbers way.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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paulio,
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He didn't even have enough fingers to play guitar 'properly'. He had a crab's claw instead of a hand. There are loads of self taught musicians who play thoroughly stirring music, with presumably what might be termed 'atrocious technique'.
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Wrong. He had an absolutely amazing technique, which was adapted to his problems.
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I also know a great many classically trained musicians (I have a family full of them for a start) who are completely uncreative, and who feel stifled as such, because they've been taught to precisely recite things, rather than to express themselves.
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This is false logic - the two things are not mutually exclusive. They've either had poor tuition or they actually have no creative talent, or both. I gave up the piano because I couldn't translate what was in my head to the keyboard - there's just no getting round that, your fingers will either do (be trained to do) what you want, or you simply can't do what you want.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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paulio,
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when I play guitar I physically disgust myself, and I want to cry and break things.
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Exactly. That's why I gave up altogether, rather than continue to play badly.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I can't believe I'm a pro - I was so much better than I am.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| paulio wrote: |
| My bro, on the other hand, just hoofs around going 'wheeeeeee!' and having an amazing time, whilst spending a lot less money. I realise that's going to elicit a brain-destroying cognitive dissonance for most of you, but it's true. He has a better time skiing than you do, and he's absolutely rubbish. |
That used to be me. Then I discovered the intermediate plateau and frustration at my inability to ski icy conditions, or steep slopes, or fast or deep began to creep in. Still enjoyed going on ski holidays of course, but a little bit of frustration with the skiing. Quite by chance I ended up in a good ski school and began to improve. Result was I rediscovered my passion for skiing and began to enjoy it more than ever. Maybe there gets a time in every man's life when going 'wheeeeeee!' is no longer enough? |
That was me too, until I did the gap yah instructor course thing.
It opened a new window, and my enjoyment rocketed - fixing my technique allowed me to ski much harder/steeper/scarier/deeper things better and faster. I went from going 'wwweeeee' down black pistes and low angle offpiste to giggling and cackling my down 45 degree plus powder runs and funky couloirs.
Fun is the main thing though, so as long as he's happy it's a win.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| Quote: |
I also know a great many classically trained musicians (I have a family full of them for a start) who are completely uncreative, and who feel stifled as such, because they've been taught to precisely recite things, rather than to express themselves.
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This is false logic |
Maybe. But that's what they've told me. Not something I've attributed to them.
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How can a ski instructor be called Helen Trayfoot??????????????????????????????????????????
Shame the book is unavailable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thread summary
Are good lessons a good idea? Yes
Are all lessons great? No
Are Standard Incompetent British Holiday Skiers a universal? No
Do some SIBHS overrate themselves? Maybe
Are all parents guilty of child abuse if they dare to attempt to teach their kids to ski? No
Should anyone really give a damn about what other people look like or how they are skiing? No provided they aren't causing an objective hazard.
and for what it's worth I agree with stantoni that parents taking their kids to a busy part of the mountain then trying to run human interference to prevent anyone else skiing within a radius or overtaking the little darlings are causing an objective hazard.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wow - I looked into this thread mainly because anything which has gone on for four pages usually has some impressive thread drift - I had no idea this could be so controversial. The conclusion I mainly draw from all of the above and my own experience, is that dads probably shouldn't teach their children anything. The same may be true for husbands teaching wives.
skimottaret, FYI - The Flemmen manual was AFAIR written for the Norwegian Skiing Federation. It hasn't been translated into English for long time, so is seriously out of date. However, I think most of the general principles still hold good. And the Norwegians seem to be pretty good skiers on the whole. My copy has gone walkabout (never lend books you like) so I am writing from memory here, but it has a very different approach to teaching little children to anything advocated above.
The advice for under-sevens (currently also on the NSF website) can be summarised as firstly get the kit right, secondly get the environment right and then just encourage them to play. Obviously much easier if you are living in a snowy environment. The kit recommended is what most British alpine skiers would think of as cross-country kit, but is described in Norway as non-specialised kit. It allows travelling on skis, downhill turning, and jumping. It can be used in most types of terrain. The skis are not too long, not too stiff, have a little bit of side-cut, no metal edges and should be waxed with enough grip wax to make travel easy. The bindings are free-heel, and easy for children to take off, and boots are low-cut leather. Poles are not mentioned, and I certainly don't approve of them until the little blighters can be trusted not to stab each other. The recommended learning environment is a safe playground, with variations in terrain, and some fun bumps and obstacles. A rope tow or magic carpet is an optional extra. Any 'lessons' consist of facilitated play and follow-my-leader (in other words following Mum/kindergarten teacher/instructor like a little duckling). Specialised equipment and lessons wait until the children are older and interested in developing.
| kevindonkleywood wrote: |
ansta1,
I have to say that often (IMHO) those who are very good and naturally gifted at something, do not make the best instructors or teachers.
Teaching skills and techniques are often more important than the skills of the discipline being taught, especially at lower levels. |
I think there is a lot of truth in that for teaching adults. I learnt to ski as a kid, and until I did an instructor's course, I found it hard to describe how to turn. I just go down a hill and turn left or right, with about the same amount of thought as when running or cycling. But children mainly learn by copying and doing, which is how they learn to walk, etc. So what IMHO they really need, is someone they admire and want to copy, setting a good (i.e. skilled ) example. Obviously, the terrain, effort, etc. should be within their limitations and safe. So that can mean spending a lot of time messing about with them in nursery areas.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| paulio wrote: |
And, most people I know who have had loads of coaching seem to enjoy their skiing less than the people I know who just hoon about.
They're always criticising themselves, beating themselves up for having one turn direction that's stronger than the other, and secretly trying to justify the thousands of pounds that they've spent trudging up and down a drag doing a load of tedious drills.
My bro, on the other hand, just hoofs around going 'wheeeeeee!' and having an amazing time, whilst spending a lot less money. I realise that's going to elicit a brain-destroying cognitive dissonance for most of you, but it's true. He has a better time skiing than you do, and he's absolutely rubbish. |
Sounds like me at golf
When i first started playing i got obsessed. within a year i was scoring mid 80s but was practising loads and beating myself up over it. This year i'm not a member, have only played about 5 or 6 rounds of golf and have enjoyed each one far more than I did when I was playing 2 or 3 times a week. Took me a couple of years to realise that though.
When we look back on our lives what will we think...
A) I wish I had become technically better at that sport
or
B) dam it, I wish I had just relaxed and enjoyed it when it was there to be had!
Unless you're on a level that you can become a top level athlete I am now purely in the camp that all sports are there to be enjoyed first and foremost and if you get good at it on the way, then that is a bonus. Only then should you begin to take it seriously.
That includes skiing
so, if that means the OP took his kid out to teach them to ski and they all had an amazing time doing so, then that is worth 1,000 times more than doing it 100% right. Plenty time in life to get things right. It's about the here and now people!
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| kevindonkleywood wrote: |
ansta1,
I have to say that often (IMHO) those who are very good and naturally gifted at something, do not make the best instructors or teachers.
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Yeah there is a bit of that with the mountain dwellers, they are ski instructors, yak farmers or whatever because of where they are, not because they enjoy it. You can sense there frustration when you either cannot understand what they are getting at or just can't do it due to fitness, coordination or whatever.
Another kind of instructor that I don't like are the ones that want to entirely reconstruct your technique in a lesson. Still they are trying there best and are at least highly motivated.
But those same instructors might suit other people very well.
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, ...it's good that when a thread gets to a certain length, it tends to get more balanced..(though there are exceptions)...I'm going to add a dimension not in this thread to date...head stuff.
Head stuff is vital in skiing, as I see it, whether it's your approach to speed or overcoming the fears which are blocking technique. Same is true of kids, and that's where parents can come in, I think.
For my two, they skied for a few hours a week over eight weeks when they were two and a half, just messing about on a slope outside a restaurant, tobogganing when they got tired.
The next season they got tuition, skiing in the morning and sleeping flat out exhausted in the afternoons.
Then next season they got tuition in the mornings and skied with us in the afternoons - and then some problems emerged with my son.
On 'home runs' and on crowded pistes he would ski alongside me, holding the handle end (not the sharp end) of a ski pole, and we would do slow twisty turny stuff, and this would get him down the few steep, narrow or tree lined sections around the blues. Knackered my arms, but it was good for his technique. But left to his own devices he just skied straight down the fall-line.
Me...'Alex, you have to promise to turn, not just straight down....'; Alex 'OK dad".....and then off he'd go straight down and I'd have to chase him, head hm off, and stop him. And then all over again. That's where head stuff came in.
I found a youtube clip of the father and son team who do mega-steeps on the MB Massif, and though in French, he could see that firstly these two turned a lot, that they were doing impressive stuff, and more importantly, the son listened to the father (a 'man of the mountains who taught him all he knew') and now at a high level of competence, the son led the father too - they dod what each other recommended and they trusted each other. While a different child might respond differently, this had a BIG effect on Alex. At four and a half years old he could cognitively respond to this, and it transformed his skiing. He listened more to instructors, started to listen much more to all adult 'mountain men (and women, although like many four year olds he's rather sexist) and became a very responsible turny skier - he's always on his edges now - even on flats. Checks his speed, good core technique....
and basicaly because of head stuff....and that's something that parents CAN (and should?) do, IMHO
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Having taken my two daughters to penguin club ski school on our local dry slope I am more convinced than ever that I am not capable of teaching them to ski. However, I am even evne more convinced I can help them to learn and supervise their own development based on what they've been taught.
As good as the instruction is on a generic level no instructor knows my child better than I do so I could see when she needed a little nudge to "get on with it concentrate and push yourself for a just little while" and also more importantly a little reassurance that "you've done great today but you're getting tired so come sit down"
Whilst I didn't interfere (even tho its frustrating to watch) at all with the lesson (only an idiot would) I did speak with the instructor afterwards as he had time and will be taking little'un over the next 5 weeks. He was happy with the lesson but gave feedback that "she needs to just concentrate a liitle more but it will click soon enough". This pleased me and he allowed me ten extra mins on the slope with her to press home a couple of points on the snow plough I think appreciating from our chat that I had something valuable to contribute.
I agree with the above comments about it being "head stuff" and like most sports it is mainly between the ears that counts.
Happily after just a few lessons my eldest (10) is showing real potential to be a very competent and confident technically correct skier in no time at all. If anything she just needs reigning back a bit. A good day at the slope.
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Poster: A snowHead
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jirac18 wrote, Whilst I didn't interfere (even tho its frustrating to watch) at all with the lesson (only an idiot would)
"Oh if only more parents were like you!"
Every parent naturally likes to see their kids progress, there can be a lot of pressure from parents asking instructors things like "will he move up to the next group next week" or "can she try the big drag lift today" some of them even shouting advice from the sidelines! (these are the one's that would be better suited teaching their own kids obviously!)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, the Child Centered Skiing book is very out of date.......
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Was going to put my head above the parapet and say I taught my youngest son the basics but seeing the passion that has been unleashed I should state that he has had lessons as wel, but only individual.
Having seen lots of ski classes with crocodiles of children barely able to see what the exercise is or waiting ages for their turn I can't help but think private lessons with an instructor are the ideal. Failing that there is no earthly reason why a competent, caring and careful parent can't teach the basics. Just saying instructor provided lessons are better fails to recognise the variety of standards on both sides.
Mind you teaching the basics to my son saved a fortune in lessons which meant more skiing time.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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AndrewBailey, what's that I hear?! A subtle reloading sound!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Alex, you have to promise to turn
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Indeed. Kids can be brats on a ski slope just as easily as anywhere else. If they don't do what they're told (e.g. skiing straight down, faster than they should be, rather than turning) then they should be told off and taken off the slope - you wouldn't allow them to jump on their bikes and race across a junction without looking, would you?
some kids will be less inclined to be brats with an instructor than with their parents - especially if their parents habitually let them get away with murder.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Alex, you have to promise to turn
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Indeed. Kids can be brats on a ski slope just as easily as anywhere else. If they don't do what they're told (e.g. skiing straight down, faster than they should be, rather than turning) then they should be told off and taken off the slope - you wouldn't allow them to jump on their bikes and race across a junction without looking, would you?
some kids will be less inclined to be brats with an instructor than with their parents - especially if their parents habitually let them get away with murder. |
I was reported to my Supervisor last season for requesting that a mother have her kids ski in control on our beginner hill - they were making laps on the lift, skiing straight down out of control with no idea of how close they were to really colliding with other guests, and it was scaring my student. The mother was on skis but basically watching from the bottom, and I suggested that she asked them to turn and slow down a bit - so she yelled at me, and said I was interfering with their fun, and then stormed off into ski school and complained. So a little later my Supervisor and the ski patrol Supervisor came out and watched for a while - ski patrol really ruined their fun by pulling all their passes and removing them from the hill because the mother didn't think skiing in control was a safety issue. 
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skinanny, nordicfan, i havent read or seen either i just searched in amazon for learn to ski for children.. I have heard Helen is working on a new edition of her book so that would be worth waiting for. Another option would be to buy a ski instruction manual...
my point in posting a link to few books was if you fancy teaching your kids great but at least try do it correctly by using safe and sound methods. We are entering the ski season and people will be searching for things like "teaching your children to ski" and a parent who stumbled across this thread may be misled. They wouldnt know how poor the advice given was and may think, oh some nice chap on SH's who is an expert skier recons this is the way to self teach your kids, must give this a go... would end up using this bad information and not give their children a good start in the sport...
I have NO problem whatsoever with teaching your kids how to ski but do it correctly please by taking just a little time to research the best methods and do it in a safe manner on gentle terrain so you dont end up instilling bad habits, fear or potentially ruin someones love of the sport...
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Would never have been an option for me, I started at the same time as my daughter, she was 8 I was 46. However for most of the last 8 years she has only really had lessons in very small very focused groups, generally with easiski.
However on a couple of occasions while we've been away we've skied with families who were very proud of the skiing ability of self taught young "johnny" about the same age as my daughter. On each occasion even to my relatively untrained eye you could see that they weren't particularly good. Although they could ski fast, some fairly steep runs and a bit of off-piste, their stance wasn't great, they weren't particularly in control and they were easily caught out by changing terrain. Actually pretty much like their fathers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob,
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Are all parents guilty of child abuse if they dare to attempt to teach their kids to ski
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Maybe and maybe not, sorry about the link below, it is the only link I have of trying to teach my son a new skiing aspect, did I demo this before he tried it, Heck NO not anymore, but he had seen vids of his Dad doing the same thing. Yes I was on the piste shouting instructions, and yes he got it right in the end!! Sorry to people who have already seen this, he was technically still a child when he attempted this for the first time!!!!!!!!
http://shop.snowshepherd.co.uk/About-us
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im not gonna comment in massive depth although I have been teaching (like many SH contributors) kids for many years now from 2 (nearly 3) up to 83 (yea an adult I know).
YES kids mainly learn from watching so getting them moving and having fun is vitally important.
NO I never ski with kids between my legs (occasionally on poma lifts otherwise there is no way of getting them up the slope without walking - even then little by little I force them / ween them off my help). Kids being held between legs tells the kids they are doing it themselves... but just like in the playground at school they have gotta fall over to understand their own limitations.
BLOCKING (a parent skiing behind little Johnny) is a good thing as accidents can happen and as someone said it is parental instinct... however make sure whoever is leading is setting a good line to give little Johnny time to practice what they have learnt in school.
DON'T ever confuse colour of run with skill level. ANY kid could probably get down a black run for example with relatively low levels of coaching but as soon as a child does a death wedge (massive breaking but futile snowplough) they will think they are skiing it well and will never feel the need to work on technique anymore because they can 'get down' a slope.
.... oh and finally like any professional qualification some instructors are better at teaching one type of student over another - although qualified some will be better with kids than others. In the same way some instructors LOVE teaching beginner adults even though they may have been doing it day in day out all season - my first season teaching ALL I taught was adult day 1 beginner groups - so it was pretty much groundhog every single day.... and I STILL love teaching 'never-evers'.
Lessons can be expensive and sometime parents do know their kids well and are that way inclined to pass on the knowledge so to speak but others are not. Incidentally the reason why so many French parents do it particularly (teaching their own) is a pride thing and a culture issue... those same kids I can pretty much guarantee it will be in a group lesson with 15 other little kids in the ESF (mass)group lessons as well.
When I teach kids I will do my utmost to offer advice to parents about how to keep their kids developing inbetween the lessons with me and often this will be orders like 'follow the leader down slope x'. Sometimes I will say do not ski with them as I know they may push the child too much and actually undo all the good work I like to think I have done during the lesson - it varies child to child and parent to parent!
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FAQ
